Hi, mostly for the sake of having some tactical discussion, I bring forward this topic. One year almost passed by without those two great decks getting any countermeasure -well, I think them getting cycled away has something to do with this-. If you don't know which decks I am talking about here they are.

As far as messenger goes, I am almost sure that any on the ground deck (as in a deck that runs at stories) can deal with messengers once it incorporates a few staple control cards from often used factions (Sacrifical Offerings, Shocking T-Men, DOA, Shotgun Blast, Forgotten Isles, O'Bannion Warehouses) and it knows what to aim for (Ithaqua, in this case).

Jump is trickier: having no removable linchpin it takes some creativity to be stopped dead. Jump wins by playing multiple times in a phase Simple Kindness and draw cards in order to draw multiple times Historic Discovery and then win by it. This structure can be played against the deck: if somehow the deck is denied the possibility of playing Historic Discovery, the deck cannot win.

Since jump goes off extremely early (between turn 1 and 2), we need a solution in t1 (by extension, a card that cost at MOST 2). Here I show you my findings:

1 - Student of the Prophane: Once this girl is in play, each time a card is reduced, you get a token. Since Decrepit Mausoleum and Lost History of Herodotus are the most common reducers for jump, you begin to accumulate tokens very early, on each card played.

2 - Tithe Collector: This card does not allow you to automagically win like the others, but it can really mire Jump down. Quite simply playing cards becomes too costly to allow for the finisher to go off.

3 - Howard Phillips Lovecraft, Scribe of the Unspeakable: just put him in play and nominate Simple Kindness or Historic Discovery every turn.

Honorable Mentions:

4 - Ho Fong: slower than the others due to its cost and the cost of his ability, it can still hamper a slow jump deck.

5 - Notebook Sketches: worse than HPL because it allows HD/SK to be played (albeit at a huge cost) and it needs a carrier character. The fact that it is Miskatonic (a rather bad faction to use on the ground) doesn't help.

6 - Independent Operator: again, not an automagic win, and cost 3 makes him difficult to play in turn 1, still it can slow down jump enough to beat it.

7 - Shocking Transformation: I love this card. It's 3 copies more of each stopper. What is not to like? In this case, Cost 3 and the need for a character to sacrifice.

Well, here are my findings: I hope this spurs some discussion, even if talking about black borders is living in the past.

The problem with Lovecraft is that his Meddling only works in the phase it's activated. Most combo decks don't really care about the phase they go off; HP stops the combo one phase, they just go off the next. Tithe Collector works a bit better, as it was designed with dealing with 'large' combo's and rituals in mind and: Notebook Sketches which is like HP, but lasts until the beginning of your next turn making sure you always have the priority to 'ban' a card- although it does have some downsides compared to HP, being an attachment and not a 'hard' ban, in the case of combo decks (that don't care much about removing threats and need to go off fast) it's probably the better choice.

You'd be right if I was talking of combo decks in general. Unfortunately, I was talking about jump. Jump - in its Worlds 2008 incarnations - needs to be fired in op phase (if one aims to go t1 or t2), due to the need to play cost reducers (which are mainly supports). If you can stop the SK in Op phase, you stop jump for a while.

Carioz said:

If you refer to Decrepit Mausoleum and Lost History of Herodotus, you can play one before HP can stop it, then play the other. HP has too many things they have to stop. And once DM or LHoH is in play, the phase dependancy ends.

The only problem is when you combo into Condemned Theater, HP can stop that. Jump can still go pretty large, though.

Cost reduction does harm the Notes a little, but, in this environment, any speedbumb can kill an jump deck. It's still a tough matchup, though.

Actually you HPL Simple Kindness or HD.

Unless it manages to refresh, jump cannot run through the deck. Unless it manages to HD multiple times, jump cannot win.

Could you post a Jump decklist so i can get an idea how it plays? Thanks.

Link is already in first post.

Great thread, Carioz ! Very interesting.

Chick

Carioz said:

Completely missed that. Thanks.

As a new CoC LCG player (but ex MTG player), I'd just like to thank the OP for this post.

Really great to see all this back story and pretty shocking to hear about the problems.

So how would you build this deck style now with the 3 card limit and new cards (if you would use any of the new white border cards)?

Hmmm... which deck? Messengers or jump?

No matter what, I think that -at most- 1 wb card fits each deck.

I managed to beat Ron's Jump deck through sheer blind luck at the PA regional last year. In my first ten cards I drew 3 Sinking the Lotus, and I cancelled all of his recurring Rituals. With three turns in which to work, I managed to character rush and win the game. But I don't know how viable it is as a strategy.

The simple fact though is that with very fast decks, you simply need to be faster.

The real problem with these decks is that they are combo decks which are much more stable than combo has any right to be. A combo deck like this with an instant win condition is a lot of fun, as long as its fragile and can be stopped. These really can't. That's why black border needs a serious amount of banning for it to remain viable as a format. Or, you know, new cards that challenge these decks. But that would never happen because it would unbalance the LCG meta too much.

>The simple fact though is that with very fast decks, you simply need to be faster.

I agree, and that's exactly why I was looking for -reusable- and cheap stoppers. The top three chars stop (well, let's say they make its life -very- difficult) Jump for enough time to let chars do their job. Their cost make them t1 viable. Now the question is: how effective are them at stopping J? If you play nine (3x3) of them you have about 0.70 chances of having at least one in the starting 9 cards. So if you go first, you should autowin 0.70 of the time. If Jump goes first, how many chances it has to win that turn? If it has 0.70 or less chances, well, 9 cards can generate an autowin against a whole class of decks.

By the way, I am not saying this to "prove" that the bannings where misguided or that cycling was an ugly business -in my opinion both were, but not for this reason-, it is just that I was a bit puzzled by the lack of "now let's try to beat this Jump deck consistently" reaction.

Finally I trust you on white border balance, as I am completely -willingly- ignorant of the LCG aspect of the game.

Why was this thread started in GD and not Deck Building?

Maybe it could be relocated?