Farrell can do a free boost/roll action when he gets a focus token.

His ability text is:

After you perform a focus action or are assigned a focus token, you may perfom a free boost or barrel roll action.

If he takes Push the Limit, he can do two actions at the cost of a stress:

Once per round, after you perform an action, you may perform 1 free action shown in your action bar.

Then receive 1 stress token.

My question is the timing of the stress. For Example, if Jake takes a Target Lock action as his first action, then he decides to Push the Limit and take a focus action second. Does he get the stress before he is allowed to perform his free boost/roll action? If he takes the stress first, he can't do his free action.

So does that mean for Jake to get his free boost/roll action, he must take the focus action first?

Which comes first, the free boost/roll action or the stress?

Sorry if this has been asked and answered before, I looked and couldn't find it.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/106737-jake-farrell-and-free-actions-question/?hl=%2Bjake+%2Bfarrell

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/101832-a-jake-farrell-question/?hl=%2Bjake+%2Bfarrell

I looked harder and found a few topics about this. Looks like the prevailing opinion is that he Free Boost/Roll takes place before the PTL stress kicks in. Does anyone disagree with that interpretation?

In my opinion, you would be able to take the Boost/Barrel Roll before taking the stress because I see Farrell's ability as a continuation of taking the focus action. If PTL said "immediately" take 1 stress token then I would say Farrell's ability could not be taken.

Whenever you have multiple abilities triggering at the same time, you get to choose the order in which they resolve. SO yes, you should be able to boost before taking the stress.

Or

What if you did your focus action, take your free boost or barrel roll, then push the limit.

Free actions still trigger PtL I believe

Actually, it's quite common to use free actions to trigger PtL, and by doing it that way, the question of when is the stress token applied is virtually nullified.

I've been discussing this at length with a friend, and have combed over the FAQ and the rule book. My opinion and justification is this;

I believe the stress acquired from the PtL precludes Farrell from performing the free boost/barrel-roll action. Here's why. While It is true that when you have multiple abilities resolving at the same time you get to choose the order, this is not the situation we have here. You have already chosen to execute the PtL "ability" which lets you perform a free action and "then" get a stress token. Farrels ability allows you to perform a free B/BR action after you have either performed a focus action or received a focus token. Two points with this - at no point are multple abilites happening at the same time, the entire chain is linear and dependant on the previous action/ability, so you dont have any order to resolve & "stress" is not an "ability" it is a condition which kicks in the moment you perform the free action from the PtL "ability".

I would say that if Jake's card included the language "immediately after" the free B/BR might interupt the application of stress, but even then it wouldn't be clear without a global ruling on the application of stress.

Ultimately what it comes down to is wether or not the designers intended Jake to be able use PtL in this way. And even if he cannot execute his ability during PtL, nothing stops him from doing it with focus as his primary action followed by PtL, which is already pretty powerful.

"stress" is not an "ability" it is a condition which kicks in the moment you perform the free action from the PtL "ability".

I'm afraid that none of what you say is correct, based on a discussion we've already had and an answer we've gotten from FFG. Experimental Interface Q In fact it's possible to preform 3 free actions and end up with 3 stress if you're using the Decimator.

The stress is not assigned the moment you preform the free action. It happens after you perform the free action. Jakes ability also triggers after you perform a focus action. So since both PtL stress and Jakes ability trigger on the same event, you get to decide what order to resolve them in.

So yes you can use Jakes ability with PtL.

The key is you can't perform an action when stressed - even if the action is free. Since the Push The Limit (PTL) card and the pilot card use the word "action", you need to watch you order of operations.

For example:

1. Focus

2. Free boost or barrel roll from pilot card action

3. Push the limit to target lock

4. Earn stress

Otherwise:

1. Target lock

2. Push the limit to focus and earn stress so

3. No free action from the pilot card because you are stressed

I would always focus and trigger your pilot card action first to be safe.

"stress" is not an "ability" it is a condition which kicks in the moment you perform the free action from the PtL "ability".

I'm afraid that none of what you say is correct, based on a discussion we've already had and an answer we've gotten from FFG. Experimental Interface Q In fact it's possible to preform 3 free actions and end up with 3 stress if you're using the Decimator.The stress is not assigned the moment you preform the free action. It happens after you perform the free action. Jakes ability also triggers after you perform a focus action. So since both PtL stress and Jakes ability trigger on the same event, you get to decide what order to resolve them in.So yes you can use Jakes ability with PtL.

This is similar to my Dauntless - Experimental Interface - Elite Pilot Skill - Push the Limit sequence linked in your reply. However, even there Push The Limit has to come at the end of the sequnce to avoid inserting a stress into the sequence of nested actions - therby breaking the chain.

However, even there Push The Limit has to come at the end of the sequnce to avoid inserting a stress into the sequence of nested actions - therby breaking the chain.

Except that Frank lists an example where there is an action taken after PTL is used. So no it doesn't have to be at the end of the chain.

The triggers can be nested within the nested actions. Its a bit of a hairball or Gordian knot, but if you do: perform action step - (PTL to do another action [Free Action from PTL action*] add stress at conclusion).

*you can nest E.I. in here or some other action granting ability and it nests within the nest (another set of brackets).

Stress stops an action from triggering, not concluding. If you can get the trigger in before the stress hits, you can complete the action.

Going to try and diagram it out so it will make more sense perhaps. Using Jake with Prototype title, PtL, Expert Handling, and Experimental Interface

The key is that *after an action* is a trigger for things like PtL, Experimental Interface, or in this case Jakes ability. What some people are doing is making the same mistake I did at first and think of PtL as an action that you have to complete all steps for before it can trigger something else. That's not correct, there are such things as interrupt and nested actions in X-Wing. A trigger is an interrupt of a form, because if there is a trigger you can do what ever that triggers before you finish the current process.

The rule that when you have two effects that happen at the same time, you get to decide the order in which they happen, which what lets you do this. Because both getting a stress from PtL or EI, and the trigger *after an action* happen at the same time. So you get to decide what order.

You could break the chain by deciding for some reason to take the stress first...

However, even there Push The Limit has to come at the end of the sequnce to avoid inserting a stress into the sequence of nested actions - therby breaking the chain.

Except that Frank lists an example where there is an action taken after PTL is used. So no it doesn't have to be at the end of the chain.

Exactly my point on why PTL needs to be last. It reads "Once per round, after you perform an action, you may perform 1 free action shown on your action bar. Then receive 1 stress token."

PTL leaves you stressed and you can't do another action if stressed (unless Tycho) even if that action is free. I would love for PTL to be more flexible, but see page 17 of the rulebook. It reads "While a ship has at least one stress token, it cannot execute red maneuvers or perform any actions (even free actions)."

Jake's ability reads "After you perform a focus action or are assigned a focus token, you may perform a free boost or barrel roll action." The key words here are "After" and "action". If you use PTL to focus, after that you are stressed, so you cannot do the free action.

As a constructive alternative to pushing your luck on a tournament ruling, I'd look at pairing Jake Farell with Airen Cracken, Lando Calrissian, Garven Dreis or Kyle Katarn - all of whom can pass or trigger a bonus focus action to compound Jake's pilot card.

Sorry Norse, but Vanor has it exactly right. The ability triggered from the free action resolves fully before you continue to the "Then gain 1 stress" part. His diagram is both accurate and useful.

Using PtL to do a free action, that in turn can trigger another action is quite legal. It creates a "nesting" effect that Vanor has illustrated perfectly. It has the capability to extend out over several actions, but will incur the penalties at the end. In Vanor's illustration, if the pilot didn't have the Barrel Roll icon, he'd get another stress token from that, resulting in three stress tokens at the end of it all.

It doesn't have to be at the end, but the stress token gained from it's use must still be applied after all triggers/actions have been completed. The "nest" comes to an end at the completion of the final action. Then apply stress for each upgrade back down the nest that requires it. The final action is the one that offers no further trigger opportunity to the active ship. But it could still be a trigger for another ship.

You have to be very careful when applying multiple actions in this manner, and make sure that both players understand the sequence as it happens.

It's normally goes something like this:

=> Initial Action/Ability => Trigger

=> Free Action/Ability 1 => Trigger

=> Free Action/Ability 2 => no further trigger

=> penalty from 2

=> penalty from 1

=> any penalty from initial.

You travel up the nest of actions, then back down to complete each one.

Good discussion. Hopefully FF addresses it in the next FAQ version. If nested, rather than sequential, then PTL will allow a lot more permutations of actions.

Good discussion. Hopefully FF addresses it in the next FAQ version. If nested, rather than sequential, then PTL will allow a lot more permutations of actions.

We do have a response from FFG on it. It came in the thread Vanor linked above, although I'll provide a link to the specific response post: http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/122112-experimental-interface-q/page-5#entry1270040t\

There really isn't anything undefined here.

Good discussion. Hopefully FF addresses it in the next FAQ version. If nested, rather than sequential, then PTL will allow a lot more permutations of actions.

We do have a response from FFG on it. It came in the thread Vanor linked above, although I'll provide a link to the specific response post: http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/122112-experimental-interface-q/page-5#entry1270040t\

There really isn't anything undefined here.

Thank you for including the link. Nesting confirmed! Would be good to have it in an FAQ so we don't have to refer to a forum :-)

Would be good to have it in an FAQ so we don't have to refer to a forum :-)

We'll most likely see that in the next FAQ they put out, either for Rebel Aces or Wave 5. So far FFG has been pretty good about including questions we email with them in the FAQ.

So a new FAQ came out yesterday. There is a clarification on PtL but I'm still not sure it applies.

So a new FAQ came out yesterday. There is a clarification on PtL but I'm still not sure it applies.

It applies.

Really, it does.

There is a clarification on PtL but I'm still not sure it applies.

The FAQ basically made the whole thing that Frank emailed us a few weeks back 'official' by being in the FAQ.

Well I haven't been following all the threads so correct me if I'm wrong but if Jake uses PtL to do a Focus action, does this mean that PtL "resolves" (gives stress) before his free action kicks in, which would mean he won't get his free action because he would have a stress.

does this mean that PtL "resolves" (gives stress) before his free action kicks in

No, not unless you chose to resolve it that way.

The trigger for Jake, PtL, Experimental Interface, ect... is after an action which is the same timing for gaining the stress. That means you have the option on what order to resolve things in.

So you can chose to use that trigger of "after" for PtL or other actions that trigger on it, before you receive the stress from PtL.