I might add that the problem for imperials is a problem of choice. The stylistic benefits of imperial ships are choice. They have tools that give options. If used poorly, those choices can get you killed. If you choose evade instead of barrel rolling out of arc, you made a mistake that might get you killed.

Rebels in general have fewer choice giving tools as far as getting out of danger go; however, they have more choices for buffing type effects.

plenty of the rebel ships can barrel roll and boost too. And with the new rebel aces coming out soon I can only imagine them getting better

I agree. And I think Rebs have a better overall selection of a lot of the special stuff. E-Wings, for example, are ridiculously powerful, I think, with very few weak points. Run them with Rebel-exclusive repairing astromechs and it starts to get a bit silly.

The TIE Defender, which lore-wise can keep up and turn with TIE Interceptors, in this game must have sugar in their tanks or something.

Buuuut I still can't bring myself to play anything other than Imps. I'll do it far a change up every now and then, but my heart belongs to the Empire.

but my heart belongs to the Empire.

So does your spleen, and liver, and kidneys... and every other major organ if I remember the enlistment papers correctly.

I might add that the problem for imperials is a problem of choice. The stylistic benefits of imperial ships are choice. They have tools that give options. If used poorly, those choices can get you killed. If you choose evade instead of barrel rolling out of arc, you made a mistake that might get you killed.
Rebels in general have fewer choice giving tools as far as getting out of danger go; however, they have more choices for buffing type effects.

plenty of the rebel ships can barrel roll and boost too. And with the new rebel aces coming out soon I can only imagine them getting better

Hmm...one rebel ship that can boost. three that can barrel roll if you count the 2400. Not all that many.

Not sure but comparing Imperials to Rebal Aces, FFG certainly wants them to be. I'm only half-joking.

A z95 swarm is still no where near as good as a howlrunner swarm.

Statistics of tournament results would disagree with you.

The MathWing / statistics aspect is actually significantly more complicated than that, but I think Vorpal Sword touched on most of the points, so I'll just leave it at that.

How about a basic 12 pt academy pilot vs the basic 12 pt Z-95 pilot?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the Zs get significantly more bang for the buck?

No. Imperials are better.

Yes, the Imperials are weak. Go and join the rebel scum.

Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen.

I don't think Rebels are necessarily better... I think its more paper, rock, scissors than anything else. The other night my buddy flew two YT 1300, and by round two one of them was space dust because I was flying a Tie Swarm with Howlrunner. Not everything is roshambo, but some lists are more so than others.

Nope. Currently there's only a couple of people who play X-wing in my local group and the Rebels have won about 50% of the games. I only field Rebels (having sold my TIE fighters for more X wing) and I spend a lot of time wishing I had the numbers and the manuverabilty of my Imperial opponant. It's one of those 'the grass is always greener on the other side' situations as my oppoant is always talking about how good shields and turrets are.

BigKahuna, on 18 Aug 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

Also if you want to get Mathwing about it, statistically speaking you are more likely to lose a match because of bad rolling with Imperials then you are with Rebels, again because of shields (how critical hits work) and the fact that attack die are statistically better then defense die, so having 3 green die is not as good as having 3 red die.

The MathWing / statistics aspect is actually significantly more complicated than that, but I think Vorpal Sword touched on most of the points, so I'll just leave it at that.

Absolutely, no dispute from me. Obviously there are a lot of variables that go into what makes the mechanic tick and clearly skill plays a huge roll in the game but the point I was trying to make is that most Imperial ships are affected by poor dice rolls more then Rebel ships and because they rely more on green die, they are statistically more likely to have terrible dice rolls because of the bad odds on green die compared to red die.

This is true for many Imperial ships including the Tie fighter, Interceptor and Tie Bomber. Additionally due to the nature of point costs for ships with shields on the Imperial side being more expensive (Tie Advanced, Defender, Phantom for example) the counter parts to those ships for equal points generally have more shields and are equal in firepower so spread out (ignoring skill) statistically are more likely to have the same problem.

For example take a Tie Defender. 3 on everything, this is a great ship, but the cheap version of this ship comes in at 30 points. the rebels can field a B Wing for 22 points and even though they have 2 less evade die, in a joust match the Tie Defender is more likely to lose the fight simply because it has less shields and more likely to be affected when the dice go south.

For example say that the Tie Defender rolls 3 hits, but the defender rolls no evades. He is already into hull and becomes susceptible to critical hits starting the very next round. Do the same to a B win and he still has 2 shield remaining, you would need 2 more hits before a 3rd hit would start taking critical's. Its better to have shields then evade dice and points being equal (even though in this case like most cases with Imperial ships and shields its actually cheaper to fly Rebel ships) the advantage goes to the B wing.

That's the safety net I'm talking about when it comes to rebels. And again I'm not suggesting that Rebel players have less skill, that was a presumption made, it has nothing to do with my opinion, I believe the factions are well balanced. I do however believe if your a new player you will find success comes much faster when playing Rebels, as well as that the faction as a whole has a lot more reliability so if you think the dice gods are against you, you can circumvent the impact a great deal by flying rebels instead of Imperials.

I read somewhere a while back that X-Wing was a game about risk management and I believe that to be a very accurate description of how the game is played. You maneuver into positions, but you often consciously put yourself in danger to get shots off. In trade offs like that, ships without shields have a great cause for concern because green evade dice are unreliable with their 37.5% chance of success.

BigKahuna, on 18 Aug 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

Also if you want to get Mathwing about it, statistically speaking you are more likely to lose a match because of bad rolling with Imperials then you are with Rebels, again because of shields (how critical hits work) and the fact that attack die are statistically better then defense die, so having 3 green die is not as good as having 3 red die.

The MathWing / statistics aspect is actually significantly more complicated than that, but I think Vorpal Sword touched on most of the points, so I'll just leave it at that.

Absolutely, no dispute from me. Obviously there are a lot of variables that go into what makes the mechanic tick and clearly skill plays a huge roll in the game but the point I was trying to make is that most Imperial ships are affected by poor dice rolls more then Rebel ships and because they rely more on green die, they are statistically more likely to have terrible dice rolls because of the bad odds on green die compared to red die.

This is true for many Imperial ships including the Tie fighter, Interceptor and Tie Bomber. Additionally due to the nature of point costs for ships with shields on the Imperial side being more expensive (Tie Advanced, Defender, Phantom for example) the counter parts to those ships for equal points generally have more shields and are equal in firepower so spread out (ignoring skill) statistically are more likely to have the same problem.

For example take a Tie Defender. 3 on everything, this is a great ship, but the cheap version of this ship comes in at 30 points. the rebels can field a B Wing for 22 points and even though they have 2 less evade die, in a joust match the Tie Defender is more likely to lose the fight simply because it has less shields and more likely to be affected when the dice go south.

For example say that the Tie Defender rolls 3 hits, but the defender rolls no evades. He is already into hull and becomes susceptible to critical hits starting the very next round. Do the same to a B win and he still has 2 shield remaining, you would need 2 more hits before a 3rd hit would start taking critical's. Its better to have shields then evade dice and points being equal (even though in this case like most cases with Imperial ships and shields its actually cheaper to fly Rebel ships) the advantage goes to the B wing.

Sure, in your scenario it is, but on average that just doesn't hold. And, while there are times it might not survive as long as a B-wing, it can also far outlast its own average, too, thanks to the variance of the dice. A B-wing's lifespan is much more narrow, which is both good and bad. It's more consistently going to shrug off the same number of hits, but it's also going to die to a similar number as well.

I've jousted with the defender it's yet to come of worse, that's just personal experience mind you but I don't think it differs from most people.

And what happens the next turn is the defender k turns with a focus and vaped the one agility b-wing.

Yes....

They are the heroes protecting the down trodden from the evil oppressive empire

Oh you meant in game terms...

No I don't think so, they have a reputation of being easier and I think that is because they are the easier side to learn the game with.

As several people have already said when you play as a Rebel you generally have fewer choices to make. This usually being down to fewer ships, manoeuvres and actions to decide from which helps newer players pick up the mechanics of the game.

I think that once you have picked up the basics of the game both sides are fairly balanced and that is one of the great aspects of the game.

I'm just using 2 starter boxes currently, and playing Imps exclusively and have won easily every game I've played (esp vs the GF who for some reason doesn't take advantage of the x wing's shields and avoids head to head passes vs my ties, which allows me to use #s to get a TIE behind her x wings and sit there until her fighters die)

BigKahuna, on 18 Aug 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

Also if you want to get Mathwing about it, statistically speaking you are more likely to lose a match because of bad rolling with Imperials then you are with Rebels, again because of shields (how critical hits work) and the fact that attack die are statistically better then defense die, so having 3 green die is not as good as having 3 red die.

The MathWing / statistics aspect is actually significantly more complicated than that, but I think Vorpal Sword touched on most of the points, so I'll just leave it at that.

Absolutely, no dispute from me. Obviously there are a lot of variables that go into what makes the mechanic tick and clearly skill plays a huge roll in the game but the point I was trying to make is that most Imperial ships are affected by poor dice rolls more then Rebel ships and because they rely more on green die, they are statistically more likely to have terrible dice rolls because of the bad odds on green die compared to red die.

This is true for many Imperial ships including the Tie fighter, Interceptor and Tie Bomber. Additionally due to the nature of point costs for ships with shields on the Imperial side being more expensive (Tie Advanced, Defender, Phantom for example) the counter parts to those ships for equal points generally have more shields and are equal in firepower so spread out (ignoring skill) statistically are more likely to have the same problem.

For example take a Tie Defender. 3 on everything, this is a great ship, but the cheap version of this ship comes in at 30 points. the rebels can field a B Wing for 22 points and even though they have 2 less evade die, in a joust match the Tie Defender is more likely to lose the fight simply because it has less shields and more likely to be affected when the dice go south.

For example say that the Tie Defender rolls 3 hits, but the defender rolls no evades. He is already into hull and becomes susceptible to critical hits starting the very next round. Do the same to a B win and he still has 2 shield remaining, you would need 2 more hits before a 3rd hit would start taking critical's. Its better to have shields then evade dice and points being equal (even though in this case like most cases with Imperial ships and shields its actually cheaper to fly Rebel ships) the advantage goes to the B wing.

Based on the math folks used in this thread (and there was at least one more): http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/103583-how-hard-is-it-going-to-be-to-kill-a-tie-defender/ it's just not true that it's easier to kill a defender than a B-Wing.

Sure, in your scenario it is, but on average that just doesn't hold. And, while there are times it might not survive as long as a B-wing, it can also far outlast its own average, too, thanks to the variance of the dice. A B-wing's lifespan is much more narrow, both good and bad, it's more consistently going to shrug off the same number of hits, but it's also going to die to a similar number as well.

as an imperial player (mainly) i can definitely vouche for that

i'd say the defender is actually likely to outlast a firespray in terms of staying power more often than not when played properly

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the Zs get significantly more bang for the buck?

According to MajorJuggler, they're about even. The Tie has the advantage of a better dial and 3 evade dice, but the Z-95 has the advantage of shields and a higher PS.

If you had 8 Z's doing pure joust with 8 Ties, the Z's would most likely win due to the fact that they fire first. So on avg they'll have an advantage in firepower.

But if you assume that neither player is a newbie or bad, and does something other then jousting, the game should be decided largely on who flies the best.

It takes more than a minute to play the game... and you definitely can't play 5 games in just a minute unless your just that horrible at the game

"Nothing goes over my head, my reflexes are too fast!"

A minute is a commonly used expression for "a while"

I've never heard it and i'm active on several international forums, where in the world is it common?

Adversely, a "city minute" or "NY minute" means in an instant.

No. They're just different. The same playing tactics and squad building strategies that work for one side, will not simply transfer to the other. Alex & Frank made that very clear in the TC interview at GenCon. When S&V comes out, they'll be different too.

All three factions are not just mirrors of each other. Nor will they ever be, based on what was said in their discussion. Each has their inherant strengths and weaknesses. Each players style of play may not be inherantly suitable, in my own opinion, to any specific faction. Does that mean the game is broken? Not at all. Just that the way someone plays, may not work for a certain faction.

BigKahuna, on 18 Aug 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

Also if you want to get Mathwing about it, statistically speaking you are more likely to lose a match because of bad rolling with Imperials then you are with Rebels, again because of shields (how critical hits work) and the fact that attack die are statistically better then defense die, so having 3 green die is not as good as having 3 red die.

The MathWing / statistics aspect is actually significantly more complicated than that, but I think Vorpal Sword touched on most of the points, so I'll just leave it at that.

Absolutely, no dispute from me. Obviously there are a lot of variables that go into what makes the mechanic tick and clearly skill plays a huge roll in the game but the point I was trying to make is that most Imperial ships are affected by poor dice rolls more then Rebel ships and because they rely more on green die, they are statistically more likely to have terrible dice rolls because of the bad odds on green die compared to red die.

This is true for many Imperial ships including the Tie fighter, Interceptor and Tie Bomber. Additionally due to the nature of point costs for ships with shields on the Imperial side being more expensive (Tie Advanced, Defender, Phantom for example) the counter parts to those ships for equal points generally have more shields and are equal in firepower so spread out (ignoring skill) statistically are more likely to have the same problem.

For example take a Tie Defender. 3 on everything, this is a great ship, but the cheap version of this ship comes in at 30 points. the rebels can field a B Wing for 22 points and even though they have 2 less evade die, in a joust match the Tie Defender is more likely to lose the fight simply because it has less shields and more likely to be affected when the dice go south.

For example say that the Tie Defender rolls 3 hits, but the defender rolls no evades. He is already into hull and becomes susceptible to critical hits starting the very next round. Do the same to a B win and he still has 2 shield remaining, you would need 2 more hits before a 3rd hit would start taking critical's. Its better to have shields then evade dice and points being equal (even though in this case like most cases with Imperial ships and shields its actually cheaper to fly Rebel ships) the advantage goes to the B wing.

Based on the math folks used in this thread (and there was at least one more): http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/103583-how-hard-is-it-going-to-be-to-kill-a-tie-defender/ it's just not true that it's easier to kill a defender than a B-Wing.

Sure, in your scenario it is, but on average that just doesn't hold. And, while there are times it might not survive as long as a B-wing, it can also far outlast its own average, too, thanks to the variance of the dice. A B-wing's lifespan is much more narrow, both good and bad, it's more consistently going to shrug off the same number of hits, but it's also going to die to a similar number as well.

as an imperial player (mainly) i can definitely vouche for that

i'd say the defender is actually likely to outlast a firespray in terms of staying power more often than not when played properly

I don't disagree with either of you, your infusing elements into the discussion that aren't being disputed, in fact almost all the responses are. Yes, skill makes a different, how you fly makes a different, what ships vs. what ships make a difference, lots of variables make a difference.

We are still talking about the effects of shields on the game and why Rebels as a result of having more ships with more shields are less likely to be affected or lose a game as a result of few terrible dice rolls (uncharacteristically bad rolls), while because imperial ships have no shields (or fewer shields) on all ships are more likely for their game to fall apart with the same results. Again... imagine an X-Wing gets hit by 2 critical hits and rolls no evades. Now imagine an Tie Fighter, interceptor or Tie Bomber getting the same result. For X-Wings it has virtually no effect, bad roll, no problem. For any other ship without shields its going to cost them dearly, in the case of Tie Fighters and Interceptors is most likely game over.

This is something Rebels simply don't have to contend making them much easier and much more forgiving to play.

BigKahuna, on 18 Aug 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

Also if you want to get Mathwing about it, statistically speaking you are more likely to lose a match because of bad rolling with Imperials then you are with Rebels, again because of shields (how critical hits work) and the fact that attack die are statistically better then defense die, so having 3 green die is not as good as having 3 red die.

The MathWing / statistics aspect is actually significantly more complicated than that, but I think Vorpal Sword touched on most of the points, so I'll just leave it at that.

Absolutely, no dispute from me. Obviously there are a lot of variables that go into what makes the mechanic tick and clearly skill plays a huge roll in the game but the point I was trying to make is that most Imperial ships are affected by poor dice rolls more then Rebel ships and because they rely more on green die, they are statistically more likely to have terrible dice rolls because of the bad odds on green die compared to red die.

This is true for many Imperial ships including the Tie fighter, Interceptor and Tie Bomber. Additionally due to the nature of point costs for ships with shields on the Imperial side being more expensive (Tie Advanced, Defender, Phantom for example) the counter parts to those ships for equal points generally have more shields and are equal in firepower so spread out (ignoring skill) statistically are more likely to have the same problem.

For example take a Tie Defender. 3 on everything, this is a great ship, but the cheap version of this ship comes in at 30 points. the rebels can field a B Wing for 22 points and even though they have 2 less evade die, in a joust match the Tie Defender is more likely to lose the fight simply because it has less shields and more likely to be affected when the dice go south.

For example say that the Tie Defender rolls 3 hits, but the defender rolls no evades. He is already into hull and becomes susceptible to critical hits starting the very next round. Do the same to a B win and he still has 2 shield remaining, you would need 2 more hits before a 3rd hit would start taking critical's. Its better to have shields then evade dice and points being equal (even though in this case like most cases with Imperial ships and shields its actually cheaper to fly Rebel ships) the advantage goes to the B wing.

Based on the math folks used in this thread (and there was at least one more): http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/103583-how-hard-is-it-going-to-be-to-kill-a-tie-defender/ it's just not true that it's easier to kill a defender than a B-Wing.

Sure, in your scenario it is, but on average that just doesn't hold. And, while there are times it might not survive as long as a B-wing, it can also far outlast its own average, too, thanks to the variance of the dice. A B-wing's lifespan is much more narrow, both good and bad, it's more consistently going to shrug off the same number of hits, but it's also going to die to a similar number as well.

as an imperial player (mainly) i can definitely vouche for that

i'd say the defender is actually likely to outlast a firespray in terms of staying power more often than not when played properly

I don't disagree with either of you, your infusing elements into the discussion that aren't being disputed, in fact almost all the responses are. Yes, skill makes a different, how you fly makes a different, what ships vs. what ships make a difference, lots of variables make a difference.

We are still talking about the effects of shields on the game and why Rebels as a result of having more ships with more shields are less likely to be affected or lose a game as a result of few terrible dice rolls (uncharacteristically bad rolls), while because imperial ships have no shields (or fewer shields) on all ships are more likely for their game to fall apart with the same results. Again... imagine an X-Wing gets hit by 2 critical hits and rolls no evades. Now imagine an Tie Fighter, interceptor or Tie Bomber getting the same result. For X-Wings it has virtually no effect, bad roll, no problem. For any other ship without shields its going to cost them dearly, in the case of Tie Fighters and Interceptors is most likely game over.

This is something Rebels simply don't have to contend making them much easier and much more forgiving to play.

Except for the fact that the shieldless Imperial ships have more options to get them out of arc altogether AND have the evade action. It all pretty much evens out.

Except for the fact that the shieldless Imperial ships have more options to get them out of arc altogether AND have the evade action. It all pretty much evens out.

No one is disputing that, but you kind of make my point. You have to fly ships more effectively as the Imperials, its less forgiving. If you make a mistake in an Imperial ship which have no shields or fewer shields, the punishment for that mistake is greater than if a Rebel player did the same thing because again, their ships come with shields and with more shields (per points or ship class or whatever you want to compare).

The evade action does matter, but then again, shields are still better then evades. It basically is an evade and while your evading you are more likely to roll fewer evades and since we are counting action, most Rebel ships have a safety net there too. Target Lock. Not only can they take that action that allows them to re-roll (statistical anomoly failsafe) but it carries over from round to round if not used so it can be stacked with focus. More then that however if you add evades to the TIe vs. Z95's scenario, the odds situation balances out.

Except for the fact that the shieldless Imperial ships have more options to get them out of arc altogether AND have the evade action. It all pretty much evens out.

No one is disputing that, but you kind of make my point. You have to fly ships more effectively as the Imperials, its less forgiving. If you make a mistake in an Imperial ship which have no shields or fewer shields, the punishment for that mistake is greater than if a Rebel player did the same thing because again, their ships come with shields and with more shields (per points or ship class or whatever you want to compare).

The evade action does matter, but then again, shields are still better then evades. It basically is an evade and while your evading you are more likely to roll fewer evades and since we are counting action, most Rebel ships have a safety net there too. Target Lock. Not only can they take that action that allows them to re-roll (statistical anomoly failsafe) but it carries over from round to round if not used so it can be stacked with focus. More then that however if you add evades to the TIe vs. Z95's scenario, the odds situation balances out.

I don't particularly agree in a non hard-counter matchup. I just don't consider using a barrel-roll or evade as a display of superior skill.

Your comparison also assumes that shields will always block crits, but they are more often lost by regular hits. The rebel player also has a higher chance of taking damage from an attack. Focus is much better with three evade dice than two after all.

If you look across both factions as a whole, they are pretty balanced. Imperial players often have higher numbers than rebels which helps balance things out even further. Sure, a TIE fighter will most likely go down faster than an X-Wing, but you'll be rolling more dice overall with the TIEs as you'll just have more of them. The TIE swarm dominated the meta for a long time for a reason...

It takes more than a minute to play the game... and you definitely can't play 5 games in just a minute unless your just that horrible at the game

"Nothing goes over my head, my reflexes are too fast!"

A minute is a commonly used expression for "a while"

I've never heard it and i'm active on several international forums, where in the world is it common?

Come to NY. Its used all the time here.

Adversely, a "city minute" or "NY minute" means in an instant.

in the US Army, a "minute" or "hot minute" could mean years haha

I don't disagree with either of you, your infusing elements into the discussion that aren't being disputed, in fact almost all the responses are. Yes, skill makes a different, how you fly makes a different, what ships vs. what ships make a difference, lots of variables make a difference.

We are still talking about the effects of shields on the game and why Rebels as a result of having more ships with more shields are less likely to be affected or lose a game as a result of few terrible dice rolls (uncharacteristically bad rolls), while because imperial ships have no shields (or fewer shields) on all ships are more likely for their game to fall apart with the same results. Again... imagine an X-Wing gets hit by 2 critical hits and rolls no evades. Now imagine an Tie Fighter, interceptor or Tie Bomber getting the same result. For X-Wings it has virtually no effect, bad roll, no problem. For any other ship without shields its going to cost them dearly, in the case of Tie Fighters and Interceptors is most likely game over.

This is something Rebels simply don't have to contend making them much easier and much more forgiving to play.

You made this statement regarding a Defender jousting a B-Wing:

in a joust match the Tie Defender is more likely to lose the fight simply because it has less shields and more likely to be affected when the dice go south.

This just isn't true. It's going to be a rare situation where the B-wing wins.

That example (a rare occurrence) was used to extrapolate larger generalizations. The same thing is then done above with the X-wing vs. the Tie example from the first quote, failing to note that an X-wing failing two evade rolls is a more frequent occurrence than a TIE fighter or Tie Interceptor, both of which are cheaper ships. If the Interceptor is a higher priced elite ship (higher PS with PTL), it's far more likely to shrug off those two crits, or not be in the spot to take them in the first place.

These anecdotal situations can be used both ways and, imo, are very misleading when trying to make larger points.

Maybe it's the way I play (often with high PS Imperial pilots), but in a lot of ways I find them more forgiving than playing their rebel counterparts and one of the reasons I find myself missing my imperials when I play them;) When I select a maneuver with Wedge that's it, no other options (unless I put EU on him), so his positioning is where it ends up. With Soontir or Jax with PTL (both comparable cost) I can re-adjust my position by quite a bit with boost and barrel roll or turtling, more than making up for the cost of those shields.