I'm sure we'll get uglies eventually but they needed to do it this way, people have asked for more mercs and they gave us that we asked for xizor we got him, the fan base for uglies is probably much smaller but they'd be interesting to fly.

Third faction opens up far more star fighter options than rebel and imp forces allowed.

Exactly, and that is what the focus of the game is about. Starfighter dogfighting

Huge ships were fun for scenarios but really beyond the scale of the game (both litterally and stretching the mechanics as new systems had to be put in place and the ships were half the size they should be)

It's always better to use the right tool for the job.

Want to dogfight play xwing

want to have fleet actions play armada

I'm not going to use a sledgehammer to crack a nut or a toffee hammer to take down a partition wall.

I think it's great news all round.

People have been asking for improvements/modifications to Y-Wings. They've got it.

Question about this one though; can the rebels use the improved Y-wings too?

Question about this one though; can the rebels use the improved Y-wings too?

Obviously we won't know for sure until more details about the pack is released, but logically they wouldn't be able to use S&V pilot cards or "S&V only" crew, titles or upgrades.

However, if the set included - say new torpedoes, new droids, a new turret weapon, a new modification which gives Y-wings a crew slot or Y-Wing pilots an EPT, then as long as they didn't have any restrictions on the cards there's no reason why Rebel forces couldn't use them as well.

Having played with the existing Epic scale ships quite a few times now, and seen local gaming stores run Epic campaign weekends, Epic tournaments and Epic Team tournaments, I couldn't disagree more.

300 points of X-Wing models on twice the play area is nothing like a fleet based game or what Armada purports to be - it's merely a scaled up version of the existing game, with some cool additions in the form of bigger ships.

Don't confuse X-Wing Epic with GW Epic. They're really nothing alike at all.

I am feeling rather scummy, and quite villainous today...

Of course im not confusing the two.

Look at my sig i own both huge ships, i've played epic games

But.... IMHO the beauty of xwing is a couple of hour or less dog fight between three to eight ships side.

Played two game like that with my mate Sam last night

I'm not that interested in capital ships slugging it out in a fighters game... if i want that i'll play a captial ships game.

I'll stick to my opinion that Epic play and Armada have absolutely nothing in common and we'll agree to disagree then!

Seems a fair an gentlemanly agreement

I get that you're annoyed but seriously, i can only say as someone who has been involved in the wargames industry and been on the inside of design studios that there comes a point where you realise your game mechanics sort of fall apart once you get to battles of a certain side and then you need to revise what you do.

I respect you view, mine is that if i'm going to have capital ships i'd rather have CAPITAL ships then condense things like the nebulon or a star destroyer to a ridiculous 1/3 scale compared to fighters to fit them on an xwing board.

I'd also rather not have some utterly obscure 'epic' imperial because its the right size

They only just got away with 'half scaling' the current epics and even then they dont quite look right.

I'm not annoyed, I just disagree with that particular viewpoint.

I see Epic & Cinematic play as having plenty of potential and plenty of scope for development - 300 point games vs 100 point games is not a huge difference in game terms, especially when you consider you can have two ship Rebel & Imperial lists for 100 points without even taking the Huge ships into account.

In my experience, Epic play is an expansion of and enhancement of X-Wing, Armada is a departure from X-Wing, it's as simple as that.

But somewhere your 'scale of action' (like squad, company, battalion in wwii gamins terms) blurs and it falls down.

A skirmish system for squad to squad combat is fun when a tiger II tank turns up occasionaly but when you want games with ten tiger IIs vs 20 T34/85s using that ruleset it possibly worth changing scale?

Using a set of rules purposely designed for what you want to do.

I mean if its a *massive* problem, paint a corvette blue grey and change the names... unless you're playing compettively against strangers your mates would have to be real gits not to let you use it. If its the big ships on either side dynamic thats missing from your game.

I just still can't see a feasable iconic imperial large ship that wont be scaled down to the point where it's going to look daft. Anything scalable is going to be EU and a risk to sell given how much store space it would take up, limited appeal (purists wont buy it) and going to be **** expensive.

Obviously we won't know for sure until more details about the pack is released, but logically they wouldn't be able to use S&V pilot cards or "S&V only" crew, titles or upgrades.

However, if the set included - say new torpedoes, new droids, a new turret weapon, a new modification which gives Y-wings a crew slot or Y-Wing pilots an EPT, then as long as they didn't have any restrictions on the cards there's no reason why Rebel forces couldn't use them as well.

I've said this on another thread, but think about the Rebel Aces pack,the A-wing improvements come from the Refit and the Test Pilot Title. The B-wings from a modification, sure there's a couple of new pilot abilities but it's upgrade cards (that would be usable by both factions) that do he work.

I'm guessing in a box with upgrades for HWK and Y-wing that we are going to get turrets upgrades at least.

So while the new Y-wing pilots will be S&V affiliated the upgrades are going to help all Y-wings. (we hope)

Good point.

I just still can't see a feasable iconic imperial large ship that wont be scaled down to the point where it's going to look daft. Anything scalable is going to be EU and a risk to sell given how much store space it would take up, limited appeal (purists wont buy it) and going to be **** expensive.

The Phantom is arguably the most obscure fighter in the game right now (a mere two games, the original dating back to ye olde DOS/win95 era, and never piloted by famous characters) and yet it's selling like hotcakes.

If it looks fun to play, people will buy it.

I just still can't see a feasable iconic imperial large ship that wont be scaled down to the point where it's going to look daft. Anything scalable is going to be EU and a risk to sell given how much store space it would take up, limited appeal (purists wont buy it) and going to be **** expensive.

Plus, FFG aren't exactly averse to taking risks based on EU material, and it appears to have paid off for them so far. Especially considering that's essentially what Wave 6 is - a risk based on the EU.

But moving back to Epic scale ships, it depends what they decide to produce, and how they go about it. There are EU options sure, there are OT options as well. And once "Rebels" airs, there'll be an iconic Imperial ship slap bang in the middle of the Epic scale.

I maintain that it was something of a mistake to produce the CR90 as a "Rebel Only" ship - the Tantive IV is obviously iconic, but given the price of the model and the ship's usage in the EU it would not have gone amiss to release it with both Rebel and Imperial cards, and make it usable by either faction. It would also have balanced out the Epic scale game.

But hey, c'est la vie. I am looking forward to seeing what FFG have up their sleeves for the Imperials in Epic scale, and I doubt the answer is "Armada". And if on the VERY limited chance that the answer IS "Armada" - well, then in Yoda's words "there is another..."

yeah but taking a punt on $9.99 fighter and $50 capital are different things.

It's arguably by some players *too* good and a must have for some people... i dont hold that argument btw, but i remember half of a S&V podcast being a rant about how the phantom had broken the game by being too good for its points.

So i'd argue that you're better off comparing the 'defender' as obscure and seeing how that sold.

The Phantom is arguably the most obscure fighter in the game right now (a mere two games, the original dating back to ye olde DOS/win95 era, and never piloted by famous characters) and yet it's selling like hotcakes.

If it looks fun to play, people will buy it.

Precisely. If it looks cool, if it's fun to play, if it adds to the game experience...

I maintain that it was something of a mistake to produce the CR90 as a "Rebel Only" ship - the Tantive IV is obviously iconic, but given the price of the model and the ship's usage in the EU it would not have gone amiss to release it with both Rebel and Imperial cards, and make it usable by either faction. It would also have balanced out the Epic scale game.

I totally agree on this and unless you'e playing against strangers in a tourny why not just paint one 'star destroyer grey', change the names of unique characters and use it?

Question about this one though; can the rebels use the improved Y-wings too?

I've said this on another thread, but think about the Rebel Aces pack,the A-wing improvements come from the Refit and the Test Pilot Title. The B-wings from a modification, sure there's a couple of new pilot abilities but it's upgrade cards (that would be usable by both factions) that do he work.

I'm guessing in a box with upgrades for HWK and Y-wing that we are going to get turrets upgrades at least.

So while the new Y-wing pilots will be S&V affiliated the upgrades are going to help all Y-wings. (we hope)

Edit:

So people can use YT1300 and Firespray in scum.

Just so you aren't disappointed later, it's not the YT-1300 in S&V it's the HWK.

At the moment but can't see why the YT series won't get transferred to both factions. Basic pilot of the 1300 is a smuggler after all. Proper Scum in my eyes.

Star Wars is different things to different people, and some love the bounty hunters and the criminals and the pirates just as much as others love the rebels.

Some love the Empire....

No they don't they just play Empire and complain none of their stuff is good enough!

Any day I get to move my squad of Tie/In around a table is a good day IMO. I have no complaints at all with them. I have not played with some of the other ships though, like the TIE/Ad or the TIE phantom or defender so have no idea if they are good or not.

TIE/In 4 life yo.

Can some please point out to me exactly how a 3rd faction £#~!{¥ up the game on the tabletop?

It's not like the "ships are from 2 different eras in the timeline so you can't have a Naboo Fighter vs a TIE Defender(despite the fact it's only been like 20-25 years or something between the end of Episode 3 and the end of RotJ in a universe where light saber tech is like 1000 years old or more). I doubt you'll be able to have a combo of Rebels/Imperials and pirates as a fleet in anything but maybe epic play and even then if it's ok with your opponent.

To use a GW analogy someone else touched upon.

The 40k box set comes with marines and orks rights.... thats great.

making eldar, tau or chaos minis or whatever doesnt ruin the game, it just gives you more options.

No one is making you buy stuff if you dont like it.

I dont like the look of TIE phantoms so i dont have any in my imperial fleet (or defenders), im probably handicapping myself by doing this as at the very least i lose access to good upgrdes and talents but you know its a game... it doesnt *really* matter that much. definitely not worth getting upset over.

I love the repaints. Like others have stated it saves money in the long run, I'm a poor person so I greatly appreciate that. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but the Z-95, had more of a commonplace among pirates and smuggler groups then the Rebels? I was under the impression that somewhat quickly the Z95s were phased out in favor of the X-Wing.

To use a GW analogy someone else touched upon.

The 40k box set comes with marines and orks rights.... thats great.

making eldar, tau or chaos minis or whatever doesnt ruin the game, it just gives you more options.

No one is making you buy stuff if you dont like it.

That's... technically not true anymore. The current core set, which contains a ton of essential components to play, comes with Imperial and rebel ships, but no scum and villainy ships. Anyone just getting into the game and wanting to start a scum and villainy army is going to be buying a box that contains no ship they really want.

Much like the 40K starter boxes. But with 40K you can buy a rulebook and codex separately, albeit hilariously more expensive. No such option exist for much what is in the core set. At least not an official one (unless I missed something and the SnV box comes with all the range rulers and such).

As exciting (and polarizing) the news about a 3rd faction is, I'm absolutely perplexed about why they chose to start cross-factioning ships? Why didn't they do it earlier with the Lambda and HWK?

Did anyone ask about this?

Can someone who's still at the con ask one of the designers about this?

One of the things that drew me to the game is the visual aspect – the fantastically painted miniatures. I'm sure it brings a lot of players to the game. Every time we bust out the X-Wing at our FLGS, RPGers, eurogamers and 28mm lead heads come ogling.

Not only is the visual aspect so appealing, but there is a strong visual language. You immediately recognize what faction is what. Even among the less recognized EU ships.

But now with the 3rd faction, you could run a group of ships that could mirror the Rebels. Or I suppose if you ran all Firesprays, they could be Imperial.

So with all their artists and designers working on Armada, Assualt and Command, did they not have enough manpower to come up with 4 new ships (instead of the Y-Wing, Z-95, HWK and Firespray). There are so many options out there. If they're willing to use the Scyk, IG 2000 and Virago, they could've added the Cloakshape, Preybird and JumpMaster (just examples))

But why? Why are they sullying the visual elegance of the game. Especially using the Y-Wing as a Scum and Villany ship, one of the most iconic ships of Star Wars lore. Was the Y-Wing even that commonplace among Fringers? That ship, if any other is so strongly connected to the Rebel Alliance.

[insert dislike here]

If I were to guess... I would say they couldn't even if they wanted to and had the artists paint scheme ready for reprints...

Lets look at what they have going on...

Rebel Aces: 2 repaint ships

Wave 5: 2 large ships

Wave 6: 3 small ship expansions, 1 box which includes 2 new repaints and conversion cardboard for 2 existing ships.

I am willing to be their decision was primarily that they couldn't even produce the number of models they would have wanted to. They could have EASILY sold new models for the FireSpray and HWK. Their partners couldn't probably create enough to support demand on so many models in such a short time.

Instead I think they made a decision to give us more value... Convert expensive large ship that many players already have (popular) AND covert a less popular small HWK to make it have more value then it currently has.

Making new stuff always gives more options.

But making that new stuff specific to a third faction gives you less options, not more, because the set of ships and upgrades you can assemble draw from is smaller. Taking all that new stuff and splitting it evenly between the existing imperial and rebel factions would give a much larger space of possible combinations.

To use a GW analogy someone else touched upon.

The 40k box set comes with marines and orks rights.... thats great.

making eldar, tau or chaos minis or whatever doesnt ruin the game, it just gives you more options.

No one is making you buy stuff if you dont like it.

I dont like the look of TIE phantoms so i dont have any in my imperial fleet (or defenders), im probably handicapping myself by doing this as at the very least i lose access to good upgrdes and talents but you know its a game... it doesnt *really* matter that much. definitely not worth getting upset over.

I suspect it was because Jay Little explicitly designed the game as Rebel versus Empire. Those of us around before the wave 2 reprint will attest to how much more popular the game was than FFG anticipated.

In response, they did a massive wave 2 restock and waves 3 and 4 hardly had stock issues. They have consistently given people what they wanted (Defender, Falcon, huge ships, scum & villainy).

I'd say FFG is about as wise as it gets: they turned a small miniature game into 30% of their profits.