So a group of us are playing last night and the topic came up...what's the actual point of initiative?

How it came about was this...we had two opposing pilots with an equal pilot skill. The guy with initiative blows up the other one...HaZaaaa! However, the rules say that the destroyed ship gets to shoot back anyway. So what was the bonus of having initiative?

Thoughts? This would be one of the only things I would change about xwing.

Because bumping is a major strategy in this game, and the ability to move first can be very important for low PS ships like academy pilots, while higher PS ships like soontir fel want to move last to make the most out of their maneuverability.

as far as shooting it really only matters on pilots who trigger abilities after attacking like turr, phantoms, Wes etc.

Well if you have the initiative you could choose to ram the other ship potentially blocking his move or getting your self out of his firing arc as he'll then move behind you.

Yeah its like the way battletech used to work, initiative lets you see what the other guy is doing so you've got more info to make your decision with.

I've so far, and im new, not found it *that* crucial but it also helps with set up.

Unless i'm wrong the player with initiative sets up after his opponent... if your opponent is spread out you can 'deny' his flank by putting all of your force on his other flank meaning that in the initial clash you're hitting 25 per cent of his force with 100 per cent of yours and hopefully giving you a quick early kill.

I could be wrong here. I'm still learning the subtleties.

You set up in initiative order lowest to highest but the person with initiative puts theirs down first if PS is the same.

Ah i misread that then...

But given that Sian usually has either a TIE swarm or someone very good backed up by APs it tends to work out that she sets her ships up before mine most the time.

So a group of us are playing last night and the topic came up...what's the actual point of initiative?

How it came about was this...we had two opposing pilots with an equal pilot skill. The guy with initiative blows up the other one...HaZaaaa! However, the rules say that the destroyed ship gets to shoot back anyway. So what was the bonus of having initiative?

Thoughts? This would be one of the only things I would change about xwing.

The reason that both ships get to shoot is because they have equal Pilot Skill. If that wasn't the case, then the point investment the other player invested to 'buy' that pilot at his listed PS would have been wasted (which would be unfair).

The reason you might want initiative (or give it to your opponent) is entirely dependent on the type of list you are running.

Advantages of having initiative include: starting placement of asteroids, having slightly more control over use of focus tokens for offense (when both sides have multiple ships with same PS) and being able to block enemies with same pilot skill.

Advantages of giving up initiative: you get to see where your opponent deploys first so you can counter-deploy (sometimes useful, but not always) and you get to move last (only useful on ships that have barrel-roll/engine upgrade, so you can more easily dodge their firing arcs).

For some builds, this might not seem like a big deal, but for others it can be crucial. So it all depends on lists, really.

Blade gave some good answers, but more fundamentally: the point of initiative is so that both players know who's supposed to go first.

The rules could have been arranged so as to give the player with initiative a larger advantage, but instead they went for simplicity. The player with initiative deploys first (typically a disadvantage), moves first (sometimes an advantage), and shoots first (always an advantage, although often not a big one).

I hear you blade. I understand the opponent would lose his expensive pilot...but that's the point. If you have initiative, you just have that little edge that could mean the difference between winning and drawing.

I get what you are all saying, but I see initiative as a disadvantage right now. You deploy first...thus tipping your hand to your opponent. You move first...thus giving the possibility of blocking. You shoot first...but that means nothing as the opponent gets to shoot anyways...kinda lame. If blocking is the only advantage. ..I think it is more than countered by having to deploy first.

Just my thoughts, but I feel the game would be a little more balanced/strategic if initiative gained you the kill without retaliation.

Nit really since someone either paid points for initiative or got it because of a die roll. If I lost someone like wedge to soontir fel and didn't get to shoot back because you called damage on the dice at the beginning of the game, I'd be kindve mad.

plus blocking means action loss and you still get actions. Some builds live and die by initiative and PS like elite interceptors

If you shoot first, any crits you inflict carry on to their shooting. So hitting somebody at the same PS with Blinded Pilot gets you your no retaliation.

Sometimes you just want to shoot before other ships.

If you shoot first, any crits you inflict carry on to their shooting. So hitting somebody at the same PS with Blinded Pilot gets you your no retaliation.

Or, shooting before a phantom with ACD at the same initiative, possibly killing it before it gets to shoot and recloak, or at the very least doing some damage while it only has 2 evasion dice instead of 4.

Or up against someone like Turr Phennir. IF he gets to shoot first, he could potentially barrel roll/boost out of arc for return fire.

More generally, you have the potential to cause them to spend their focus, if they have one, on defense rather than for shooting at you. That's just off the top of my head, I'm sure there are other examples of why you'd want to have initiative for shooting.

Nit really since someone either paid points for initiative or got it because of a die roll. If I lost someone like wedge to soontir fel and didn't get to shoot back because you called damage on the dice at the beginning of the game, I'd be kindve mad.

Now don't get me wrong, I hear and understand the points you are all bringing up...I just think there should be more of an offensive advantage to initiative.

Great discussion though. Thanks.

Yeah its like the way battletech used to work, initiative lets you see what the other guy is doing so you've got more info to make your decision with.

I've so far, and im new, not found it *that* crucial but it also helps with set up.

Unless i'm wrong the player with initiative sets up after his opponent... if your opponent is spread out you can 'deny' his flank by putting all of your force on his other flank meaning that in the initial clash you're hitting 25 per cent of his force with 100 per cent of yours and hopefully giving you a quick early kill.

I could be wrong here. I'm still learning the subtleties.

It is unfortunately almost the direct opposite of what you're describing; in case of pilots with equal PS on either side then the player with initiative places, moves and shoots first.

Lets do an example:

Rebels has 2 Rookies (PS2) and Wedge (PS9) and a (for arguments sake) point total of 99 points

Imps has 4 Academy Pilots (PS1) and Darth Vader (PS9) with a point total of 100 points

The Rebel player gets to choose which side gets the initiative. Before moving on there are a couple of things to consider:

IF the Rebel player chooses to take the intiative, it will basically "just" mean that Wedge gets to launch his attack prior to Darth Vader. On the other hand it'll also mean that Darth Vader will have the benefit of moving AFTER Wedge has moved; and since DV has 2 Actions it'll give DVthe benefit of knowing (for example)

A) whether to Barrel Roll out of Wedges arc and then taking a Focus or Target Lock

B) if he shold choose a Focus + TL (if already out of the arcs)

C) Choose Focus and Evade (if he can't get out of the arc(s))

or variations of the above

If the Rebel player had chosen to give the initiative to the Imp player, then all of these decisions for DV would have been made "blind" in the meaning that the Imp player wouldn't know where Wedge would be positioned (since DV would move first)

So what I am trying to say is: Deciding whether or not to take the intitiative or not (if you have the fewest points or win the coin toss) is not depending on your list but really only depends on the match up between your list and the opponents list. If there are no equal PS issues then the initiative will only influence the order of asteroid placements.

(Note: in the championship bracket (elimination rounds) of a tourney, initiative is used as a tie breaker in case of a draw)

Ok...but that's just it...I shot first...you died. To avoid this happening, you would drop points out of your list to ensure initiative. That way, you kill my super pilot and nerf my plans. Just seems odd that's all.

Now don't get me wrong, I hear and understand the points you are all bringing up...I just think there should be more of an offensive advantage to initiative.

I don't think so...the pilot skill is supposed to be simulating pilot's reaction speed. I also feel like initiative would be too powerful...you could essentially negate 30-40 points of my list by keeping your list at 99.

As everyone has mentioned, you CAN have great offensive power w/ initiative, but you have to fly the right list.

Turr Phennir

Airen Cracken

Lando

Anyone with Opportunist (from NOT having it)

Any interceptor w/ PTL

These guys would all benefit from the initiative order. Also, consider this:

8 4 2

vs

8 4 2

These are the pilot skills of two opposing players all facing each other and in each other's arc. Now, you could just duke it out, 8 shoots at 8, 4 shoots at 4, etc. However, if you shoot at the lower PS, 8 could kill 4, and 4 could kill 2, then all of a sudden you just denied your opponent 2 attacks. Given, this is more of a PS ability than a initiative ability, but still.

Try this one

JAX (PS8) BOUNTY HUNTER (PS3)

TARN (PS3) ROOKIE (PS2) ROOKIE(PS2)

let's assume everyone is at range 1 and your squad is full of focus tokens it can't use (because of Carnor). You can't do anything against his attack, but if you have initiative, Tarn can attack (and hopefully kill) Carnor before the bounty hunter can shoot. With Carnor gone, you're now able to use those focus tokens for defense, hopefully allowing your Rookies to survive the Bounty Hunter's attack.

Most uses are situational, but when initiative matters, it REALLY matters.

So a group of us are playing last night and the topic came up...what's the actual point of initiative?

Let's Roshambo, I will go first....

Bumping.

Skills after shooting.

Crits

Probably there are more, but they don't come to my mind right now.

Oh and of course. Getting outside enemy fire arcs.