The list that won our Regional championship was a Bomber list. This is what won -

· Jonus with Veteran Instincts, Homing Missiles and Seismic Charge
· 2 x Scimitar with Assault Missiles + Seismic Charge
· 1 x Scimitar with Concussion Missile + Seismic Charge

So, I'll be the voice of dissent here and say that Bombers are perfectly viable - in the right hands. I personally haven't really used them, as I only have one at the moment, but I do think that bang for the buck, they are hands down the best delivery system for ordnance, and until Wave 5 hits, your only choice for Torpedoes.

That being said, I do want to dip my feet into the Bomber pool a bit more. My purchase decisions were based solely on maximizing my fleets and upgrades. Now I'm starting to round them out, and getting around to doubling up (at a minimum) of each ship is a first step in that direction.

Even better yet

Gold x2

ICT

Ion Torp x2

62 points for a deadly swarm counter, even better with Horton.

Reading Major Juggler's statistic, nobody uses Bombers, or Tie Advanced, or HWK.

Yeah, the issue is not just that they don't get used very often, but that even when they do get used, they don't place very well. I finally got the total total successful use vs. frequency of occurrence numbers in, and they are very interesting.

Specifically, only two of the three Lambda pilots need some love. Captain Yorr actually has the highest measured placement efficiency of any pilot in the game, for both wave 3 and wave 4 Regionals. Disclaimer: he doesn't get taken that much, so the certainty in that measurement lower than with, say, Howlrunner or Chewbacca.

I think right now that's the foundation problem of the core mechanic, the fact that in general, Ordinance is simply not an efficient way to spend points.

Yeah, the basic damage based torpedoes and missiles cost too much for what they do. This deserves its own thread with some MathWing to compare it.

I like the idea of bombers. I only had one for the longest time and attempted to put in in lists, but found I always wanted 2 or more. By the time I got around to purchasing more I moved on to different ideas, so I've never gotten them on the table sadly. There are a lot more options for them now than when I was trying to put them to use, so i'm sure I'll circle back around to them.

I actually like to use ordnance, but I've fallen prey to the internet telling me they are bad! Using mostly rebel ships I do tend to keep flechettes in mind when I have a few points left over and it's been put to use a few times, but I've come to dislike how ordnance in general works. It seems to be one of the biggest complaints with them, but the inability to modify without significant setup.

I think Munitions Failsafe has been a great addition, but the thematic logistics of it bothers me. If my shot missed I get another magically, but if it hit I'm out of shots...

The list that won our Regional championship was a Bomber list. This is what won -

· Jonus with Veteran Instincts, Homing Missiles and Seismic Charge

· 2 x Scimitar with Assault Missiles + Seismic Charge

· 1 x Scimitar with Concussion Missile + Seismic Charge

So, I'll be the voice of dissent here and say that Bombers are perfectly viable - in the right hands.

I'm looking at that one now in my results spreadsheet. To clarify for the discussion at hand, there were only 8 people in attendance. The results are averaged into the stats tracking in the Regionals thread. Placing 1st in an 8 person tournament is, for my tracking purposes (column #2, weighted average), statistically equivalent to placing Top 4 in a 32 person tournament.

The list that won our Regional championship was a Bomber list. This is what won -

· Jonus with Veteran Instincts, Homing Missiles and Seismic Charge

· 2 x Scimitar with Assault Missiles + Seismic Charge

· 1 x Scimitar with Concussion Missile + Seismic Charge

So, I'll be the voice of dissent here and say that Bombers are perfectly viable - in the right hands.

I'm looking at that one now in my results spreadsheet. To clarify for the discussion at hand, there were only 8 people in attendance. The results are averaged into the stats tracking in the Regionals thread. Placing 1st in an 8 person tournament is, for my tracking purposes (column #2, weighted average), statistically equivalent to placing Top 4 in a 32 person tournament.

To be fair, the player who used this list isn't afraid to try new things, and quite often will come up with a list that goes against the meta. People generally build to the meta, so his lists tend to throw a lot of curveballs at these people who are unprepared for what he places on the table.

His new list is 3 Y'w with ICTs, and Proton Torpedoes. Horton, Dutch, and a Gold pilot, and he's had quite a bit of success with it. Though, again, I think this has a lot to do with others net-listing, and building lists around the "meta" that seems to be popular - Swarms, Phantoms, and Falcons..

There really is something to be said for building against the meta sometimes. People tend to lose their ever lovin' minds, when they look across the table expecting a Phantom list that they've built to counter, and seeing something like one of the above lists.

As I said, I don't have a lot of experience using Bombers yet, as I only have the one, and only 1 Y-wing. This will change soon when I start rounding out the fleet. Until then though, it's interesting to see how successful these lists can be.

Bombers are good, I had quite a lot of success with them in wave 3 including a top 16 finish in the Hilo vassal tournament. (And the game I lost came down to 1 tie bomber vs 1 tie fighter each with 1 hp)

It is a list that take a lot of practice to be good at. You have to understand the dynamics of the approach and pick your maneuvers carefully because if you botch the opening engagement, the game is pretty much over. It is a list that has next to no room for error.

In fact, after that vassal tournament, I entered a local tournament with my list and did dismally. Losing to a strong opponent first round and then again to a pair of 3 ship noobie lists that while overall were terrible, the high PS with some really bad dice and critical luck got me the losses.

After that, I was scared to run it in both the store championships and regional list, even tho I still think it is a good list and good against many things in the competitive meta. I just wasn't sure it was consistent enough, since one mistake at the beginning can cost you the game.

Like I said earlier, Phantoms scare me too much to use it right now, but it has promise come wave 5. Jonus assisted clusters will tear decimators apart, for example.

Papamambo, that player sounds like the story of my life. Screw the meta, if I want to fly an Advanced I'll fly an advanced!! (Jk not that stupid, but seriously, A-wings and Y-wings are undervalued).

TIE Advanced are obviously struggling, but I think HWKs are victims of a reputation that doesn't match their actual performance. The HWK lineup leans strongly toward control and support, and that's actually a good thing if you're willing to incorporate those elements into X-wing play.

I certainly thought that this was the largest factor with the HWK-290 not being represented successfully at Regionals. But I went and calculated the conditional effectiveness of everything in the game, and it is clear that even when the HWK makes it to the Final Cut / Top Third, it still doesn't do well.

Wave 3 Regionals points in Final Cut + Top Third (no weighting): 1.352% of points spent

Wave 3 Regionals weighted average points (successful usage): 0.812% of points spent

Normalized effectiveness: 60%.

Wave 4 Regionals points in Final Cut + Top Third (no weighting): 1.169% of points spent

Wave 4 Regionals weighted average points (successful usage): 0.571% of points spent

Normalized effectiveness: 48.86%.

So, it's not just a reputation issue. Even when good players make it to the top ranks with a HWK, they still don't do well at progressing any further. And Rebel Operative usage in wave 4 Regioanls at the Final Cut + Top Third is exactly zero.

Low sample size is a plausible alternative explanation that's difficult to rule out on mathematical grounds.

Well, that's unless I'm misunderstanding something about your weighting scheme: as I see it, a list archetype that wins 75% of its matches can still be hard to spot among tournament lists if it only makes up 1% of all competitive entries, because X-wing is a "noisy" game.

The first tourney I played I ran a HSF list, and came up against someone running 4 A's. Honestly, if it hadn't been for the tankiness of the Falcon, I would have been done for. Those A's were all over the map, and this was prior to Wave IV. I can't imagine what could have happened if they were running Outmaneuver..

If I recall correctly, one of my rookies went down right away - the first turn they were within range of the A's. The second Rookie lasted a bit longer, and it gave the Falcon a chance to chip away at the A's using Gunner and the turret.

It was a ballsy list that my opponent ran, and one I will never underestimate again, especially with Rebel Aces about to drop!

Every time I play in a tournament, I'm always in awe of my opponents - how they fly, how they apply their upgrades for maximum efficiency, and other things. It's always a learning experience.

A-wings are da-bomb man.

As others have said, it is an ordnance problem, not a bomber problem. For the cost, you could make the argument that ordnance should be persistent or at least give you 2-3 shots. I think the release of munitions failsafe is FFG's recognition of this.

My first reaction when I saw proton torpedoes:

"Oh wow, I get to pay four points for an attack that requires me to waste a target lock, be at range 2-3 and discard the card immediately afterwards.

In return I get to roll one extra die and turn one of the focus symbols into hits. Oh and if I happen to catch the opponent at range 3, they don't get an extra die.

Pass."

They're not all that awful, but even after firing assault missiles I usually still feel robbed.

I think it was simply a thematic choice on FFG's part.

If ordnance was all really good, the game would be about ordnance.

But Star Wars is more about PEWPEWPEW lasers.

I think it was simply a thematic choice on FFG's part.

If ordnance was all really good, the game would be about ordnance.

But Star Wars is more about PEWPEWPEW lasers.

Really? I seem to recall proton torpedoes doing something kind of important in the first movie ;-)

I think it was simply a thematic choice on FFG's part.

If ordnance was all really good, the game would be about ordnance.

But Star Wars is more about PEWPEWPEW lasers.

Really? I seem to recall proton torpedoes doing something kind of important in the first movie ;-)

Well, you can accomplish important things with torpedoes in a game of X-wing...

and when you do, someone gets to say, "Great shot kid! That was one-in-a-million!"

Ordnance in general isn't great, but ordnance assisted by Jonus (clusters, proton torps, and assault) is really good. The burst damage from 2 clusters, 1 proton/cluster, and 1 assault missile fired in a single round (or even the first 2 rounds) can't be matched.

It's very strong vs traditional 4 ship rebels and non-EH falcon lists, and even pretty good vs swarms.

The thing is the list has to be built right with your formation and approach in mind. You can't pick 4 bombers and slap 6 missiles on it and expect to do well. You have to consider factors like if you are using a block 2x2 formation, the front bombers should only have 1 missile or else they will be focused and killed before you use the 2nd missile. The back bomber needs a long range and short range missile for flexibility. Support Jonus or Offensive Jonus? (I've had way more success with a ptl+assault missile jonus).

The primary weakness of the list is high PS positional ships (boost mostly) and expert handling.

The idea of bombers is to take out big targets in one shot which in the previous wave meta just simply does not work. I do think that this latest wave offers some new options to Tie Bombers but it has also created new obstacles that may have actually made them even less viable with smweaponization of stress. That said I think all miniature games this one included have units that are less competitive in tournament play but still fun and worth fielding in house games where unique circumstances exist.

The current meta has the Phantom. Good luck EVER damaging/shooting that with a Bomber. That's where the clunky, yet lovable dial does fail you.

I think I'm going to try a Jonus miniswarm with Rexlar--pretty much naked but with two pieces of non-bomb ordinance and see what happens. Seems like it could be pretty decent.

True Marinealver.

Not sure that they are priced that well though, as cheap as they can be to put into play without ordinance Bombers are useless. If you look at the cost of a Scimtar Squadron Pilot (16 points), that's dirt cheap, just a notch above a Tie Fighter so it seems more then fair. But truth is that after you put a couple pieces of Ordinance on him he's going to be well in to the mid 20's points wise, probably more. So you have basically invested a fair amount of points into a pilot who really isn't really a particularly good tank since he's vulnerable to critical s, who can't maneuver for **** so he's always going to be getting shot at and worse yet carrying expensive ordinance that he is unlikely to ever get to fire off since he can't get into position. You have to struggle to stay in the green, so that you can get target locks, then try to maneuver using a crappy dial to get the shot off.

Compare that to simply getting a couple of Tie Fighters who don't have to worry about any of that, which combined have the same amount of hull, far more maneuverability which means they are going to get more shots off. Hell even in a straight dice contest if you roll 4 dice 3 times (2 Tie Academy Pilot Tie Fighters) and compare that to a 25 point fitted Scimitar Squadron pilot I doubt you would squeeze 12 dice worth of rolls out of it.

2 Academy are still higher in point cost than a Scimitar with 2 Proton Torpedoes. The biggest mistake may people have with Tie Bombers (Y-wings, B-wings, Falcons and Fire sprays included) is point overloading. The discipline on the Tie-Bomber is NOT filling up every upgrade slot. If you put more than 2 upgrade cards you are doing it wrong. (3 if it is a name pilot but those have great abilities that cost a premium in points and you have to build around it).

It doesn't matter how much you invest in defensive upgrades such as C-3PO, Stealth Devices or Shield Upgrades. If you got a ship that cost more than 40 points after upgrades that is the ship that will be destroyed first as it is prioritized.

Agreed. I've watched my friend experiment with Tie Bombers and its clear that they are a more effective then their reputation suggests. I do however look at ships in terms of "skill Tiers" and if I where to grade the difficulty of flying a Tie Bomber successfully it would be up there. It takes some very good planning and execution to pull them off which is why I think they get the reputation they have as being sucky or cost ineffective. When a ship is difficult to succeed with (or a list) it makes sense that people will fail with it and doubt its quality.

I've seen that with quite a few lists. I think the opposite is true as well, the over confidence in certain ships because they are easier to succeed with. Falcons for example are often said to be "awesome", but the reality is that its really not a skill driven ship. You have a 360 firing arc and dice rolling fail safes, so it really doesn't require a whole lot of skill to fly it successfully.

The current meta has the Phantom. Good luck EVER damaging/shooting that with a Bomber. That's where the clunky, yet lovable dial does fail you.

In a scramble I Ionized a Phantom with a Bomber. You can still flechete it and give it stress even if it doesn't hit.

The bomber dial is clunky but in comparison to the Y-Wing and B-Wing It has a better range of movement with more green moves and the 5 K that sets up for an easy 1 green the next turn in order to get a target lock range after your opponent does his K turn. It is also the only ordinance heavy fighter with 2 agility. (B-Wings and Y-wings only have 1). It is very maneuverable for a fighter of its type. It is just obviously not as maneuverable as a Tie Interceptor or A-wing.

The current meta has the Phantom. Good luck EVER damaging/shooting that with a Bomber. That's where the clunky, yet lovable dial does fail you.

In a scramble I Ionized a Phantom with a Bomber. You can still flechete it and give it stress even if it doesn't hit.

The bomber dial is clunky but in comparison to the Y-Wing and B-Wing It has a better range of movement with more green moves and the 5 K that allows for an easy 1 green the next turn in order to get a target lock range after your opponent does his K turn. It is also the only ordinance heavy fighter with 2 agility. (B-Wings and Y-wings only have 1). It is very maneuverable for a fighter of its type. It is just obviously not as maneuverable as a Tie Interceptor or A-wing.

Hmm. I'm feeling like I probably wouldn't be able to get it to happen consistently enough.

Basically, most players have this pile of ordnance cards that do not see much, if any, use. Too expensive, too dicey, too convoluted to reliably put on target. I'm fairly sure FFG will find some sort of fix, I just hope it's one that reinstates canon staples like the proton torps to their rightful place.

Basically, most players have this pile of ordnance cards that do not see much, if any, use. Too expensive, too dicey, too convoluted to reliably put on target. I'm fairly sure FFG will find some sort of fix, I just hope it's one that reinstates canon staples like the proton torps to their rightful place.

Proton Torps are a great finisher with the crit chance. Save the target lock until the shields are down.