I think they're utter toast. They seem just not really cost efficient enough to handle most threats nowadays and have a hard time versus really agile ships anyways.

I'm very sad about this.

I'd imagine next imp aces will feature a bomber update.

I really really really hope so.

Yeah, I also have this tiny voice in my inner ear screaming "POWER CREEP!!!" whenever I look at a couple of Phantoms dismembering some older wave build, og Corran double-tapping the living XXXX out of some hapless victim, before green-manouvering out of harm's way to do a rinse-and-repeat. I'm still new to the game, and in many ways it really IS the best game I've played in a long, LONG time, but if i had to put my finger on something that's let me down about it, it's the fact that the playing field is not nearly as level as I was led to believe.

Bombers - not half bad, just don't fly them as...bombers. Eh....

I really think it's time for FFG to go back and look at the entire fleet of ships and start doing some fixes.

Yeah. That's what I want them to do next.

Other than Imperial Huge ships theres nothing that seems missing now. I just want them to go back and give some of my favorite iconic ships some more love.

Reading Major Juggler's statistic, nobody uses Bombers, or Tie Advanced, or HWK.

The named pilots on both the Lambda and the Firespray could really use some help.

Just to spite that, most of the named pilots for Rebel ships are at least worth taking.

Aren't Flechette Torpedos pretty decent though? Two torpedos and a failsafe on a 21 point ship with 6 hit points seems perfectly decent, especially since you don't even have to hit to inflict stress (meaning you can keep doing it, if you have the failsafe).

The issue is very few of us use ordinance even with MF you can usually spend those points more efficiently, bombers there for arnt most people's first pick.

Btw, Okapi, your sig reminded me of this:

Just been reading the Art of War by Sun Tsu (btw, get the 1910 Lionel Giles edition, its much clearer and closer to the Chinese. I've been reading it in Chinese too.)

One of the most famous quotes was:

"All warfare is based on deception." =)

When you are strong feign weakness, when weak feign strength.

My bombers only see play in epic.

Shame. I love all 4 of them.

The general, unable to control his irritation, will launch his men to the assault like swarming ants...

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Me too. I have 5 of the poor saps and they rarely see play. =/ Not for lack of trying either.

I think right now that's the foundation problem of the core mechanic, the fact that in general, Ordinance is simply not an efficient way to spend points. I think this is mainly because having more dice, or some special effect on a single shot, is simply not as good as simply getting additional ships.

Just a theory, one largely based on the observation of my own games but typically I win matches in which I have more ships that are less specialized then I do when I specialize and equip fewer ships.

If I had to guess (I'm not a mathematician and I don't play X-Mathwing) but I think it comes down to the principle that its better to have 2 pilots with a 2 attack, then it is to have 1 pilot with 4 attack (in theory) because even if you get say 4 hits on something like a Tie Bomber, the next time you shoot at him (the following round) if you get 4 hits again, you got 2 too many hits and although he blows up none the less, 2 damage is wasted. Where with two ships you could get 4 hits in one round, then attack with one fighter assuming you get 2 hits, you could target something else and potentially get 2 hits there. Spread that out over several ships and several rounds and the one ship with 4 dice is going to have a lot of wasted damage that does nothing as deadly as it is. Additionally if you find that one ship is out of position or is put into a less then optimal firing position he might get denied, while having multiple ships if one gets put into that position the others can still shoot optimally.

At least that's what I think is happening. Hence the end result (which is supported by tournament data) is that having more ships is a far bigger advantage then anything you can give yourself with specialized ships and special ordinance.

Ordnance Builds are little tough to make because ordnance only used once and while not expensive the points do add up. I think the VT-49 Decimator will help out allot with Ion Torpedoes which is a Proton Torpedo Assault Missile Ion Cannon combined. Add those with flechet torpedoes or the VT-49 stress adding upgrades you might see a strong Imperial Stress-Ion and Torpedo builds. The bombers are still the Imperial's Torpedo delivery systems.

Logic would dictate that bombers have the capacity to deliver a harder punch than other craft, at the price of reduced capabilites in other areas. This, quite simply, seems to me to not be the case at the moment. Missiles and torpedos are too dicey, too expensive, and their means of delivery are often too convoluted. If you try to think of the damage output and survivability you can 'reliably' get out of, say, a Phantom, and E-wing, a B-wing, etc., and then try to match it with a Bomber or an Y-wing, you end up with drastically different points values. At least, that is my experience so far.

...

Other than Imperial Huge ships theres nothing that seems missing now..

If you look at the VT-49 it is practically a huge ship that is played in standard format. 40+ points 0 Agility 360 Primary Firing Arc 3 crew slots and both a Bomb and Torpedo slot. Double digit hull and the ability to hurt ships by touching them. The only thing it is missing (besides its own damage deck) is a cargo and a team slot.

I think the Tie Bomber is one of the few ships where you MIGHT take ordnance, but its usually not worth it since the ordnance is so limited. With three cheap bombers and Jonus you can sort of make it work, but its hardly a strong list.

I think the ship itself is pretty well priced, its the ordnance thats not worth using.

Ordnance Builds are little tough to make because ordnance only used once and while not expensive the points do add up. I think the VT-49 Decimator will help out allot with Ion Torpedoes which is a Proton Torpedo Assault Missile Ion Cannon combined.Add those with flechet torpedoes or the VT-49 stress adding upgrades you might see a strong Imperial Stress-Ion and Torpedo builds. The bombers are still the Imperial's Torpedo delivery systems.

Yeah, but I guess the point is that, you don't really want to be delivering torps as is. And while I think it's nice that you get new and better torps, FFG SHOULD at some point ask themselves if it's right and proper that people have all these proton torp cards that never see any use...

One ideas might be to give ordinance a special "general rule". For example treat all pilots firing ordinance as if their pilot skill was 12 for that turn. So after the move phase you have an ordinance token and you put it down before dials are revealed. If your target is still in range after movement, your pilot skill is 12 and hence get to shoot first. This would make flying at ships with ordinance a very dangerous affair.

I think the biggest problem is not that bombers and ordinance are under powered or obsolete. I think the problem is that players are disillusioned by the 6 hull thinking of it as a tank build and try to do stuff and get within range 1 of a target even if that target is 3 firepower and the position is in multiple firing arcs. Hull Tanks are not that tanky especially when only rolling 2 agility dice. Heck I wouldn't even consider the Defender as a tank which has half the hits as shields and an extra dodge dice.

The best defense is to no be within other firing arcs. If you want a tank on the imperial side maybe it is best to try an agility tank such as 2-3 Tie Fighters with stealth device. Don't focus, evade and let the bomber in the back do the damage. If they ignore the fighters and go for the bomber, get within range 1 outside their firing arcs and hit them with 6-9 attack dice.

Bombers are fine, ordnance on Bombers is not.

Ordnance Builds are little tough to make because ordnance only used once and while not expensive the points do add up. I think the VT-49 Decimator will help out allot with Ion Torpedoes which is a Proton Torpedo Assault Missile Ion Cannon combined.Add those with flechet torpedoes or the VT-49 stress adding upgrades you might see a strong Imperial Stress-Ion and Torpedo builds. The bombers are still the Imperial's Torpedo delivery systems.

Yeah, but I guess the point is that, you don't really want to be delivering torps as is. And while I think it's nice that you get new and better torps, FFG SHOULD at some point ask themselves if it's right and proper that people have all these proton torp cards that never see any use...

One ideas might be to give ordinance a special "general rule". For example treat all pilots firing ordinance as if their pilot skill was 12 for that turn. So after the move phase you have an ordinance token and you put it down before dials are revealed. If your target is still in range after movement, your pilot skill is 12 and hence get to shoot first. This would make flying at ships with ordinance a very dangerous affair.

If you look at the Torpedoes and missiles it has the spending target lock in mind. They often do more than 3 damage at ranges greater than 1. The proton allows one focus to become a crit so you can fire it on the turn you TL while the concussion allows a blank to become a miss so it combines with focus. The flechet torpedoes do not have to hit to add stress as long as you are not shooting Y-wings or Bombers.

To be honest I would rather have my Proton Torpedoes on a lower Pilot Skill which gives me more chances to take down shields so the crits I roll on the torpedoes go through. I don't want it at PS 12. Munition Fail-safe acts sort of like a gunner in the terms that if your opponent evades you don't loose the upgrade.

Bombers are fine, ordnance on Bombers is not.

Naked bombers aint great either. Though, they do have big knockers.

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Yes, I agree. Ordnance just is overcosted in this game, and hard to pull off. The bombers need more reliable ways of getting their shots off. especially against more mobile stuff too. at least some help.

Ever try and pin a phantom with a bunch of bombers? Yeah. thats like trying to kill a fly with a cleaver.

Also twice now, I've lined up the killing shot, only to have my higher PS and more agile opponent shoot me first and hit me with Blinded Pilot. TWICE. RAGE.

Bombers are far too easy to crit. They really should get some shield for balance sake.

And thus, bombers are not fine, I'd venture to suggest

I am going to run one Gamma bomber in my next epic match: 1 proximity mine, 1 ion torpedo, 1 flechette torpedo, 1 assault missile, 1 proton rocket, munitions failsafe, 4 squadmates to avenge, 3 vendettas to actualize, 2 filled out claims of life insurance, 1 coffin pre-ordered, and no reason to keep on living.

Sure they are, just not as BOMBERS.

Howlrunner

5x Scimitar

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98pts