If you're playing a game of your Whisper mini swarm vs a Soontir mini swarm, and you get the choice of initiative, do you take it and why?

Same thing for any other same PS Phantom mirror match? Do you take the initiative or not?

Assume: VI ACD Rebel Captive

Shooting first is always a good thing.

Shooting first is always a good thing.

So is moving last with a Phantom.

As long as you've taken VI you choose to go first with whisper you want the focus from firing and the green dice from cloak.

That's what I thought too. Shooting first and getting the effects is better, but then I tend to get fire back or dodged.

Well if you want to dodge arcs you take echo, if you want to get an early attack in and have the defence to live after you take whisper.

You just have to accept they are going to shoot at her.

Tough call but I would usually give Soontir (or opposing Phantom) the initiative as I prefer the Decloak/movement/Barrel Roll advantage to try and get out of Soontir's arc. It then puts Soontir in an difficult position of using PTL or not as he will be doubled stressed if he wants to shoot Whisper with Reb Cap.

As a player who often brings Soontir; I prefer to move last.

The ability to move out of arc is golden. Rebel Captive hardly bothers me.

Simply do not use PTL and opt for one action. (ideally move/BR out of arc, otherwise I prefer evade)

Shoot at Phantom with RC means stress = free focus for defense.

As a player who often brings Soontir; I prefer to move last.

The ability to move out of arc is golden. Rebel Captive hardly bothers me.

Simply do not use PTL and opt for one action. (ideally move/BR out of arc, otherwise I prefer evade)

Shoot at Phantom with RC means stress = free focus for defense.

I cannot like you enough.

Rule of thumb: mobile ships and ordnance carriers DO NOT want initiative. If you a countering these lists, you don't want it either; you want them to have it in order to rob part of their mobility advantage. Otherwise, its good to have, but remember, if a ship with initiative destroys a ship with the same pilot skill, the destroyed ship still gets to fire before it is removed.

Necroing:

Anyone have any success with this or other PS9 ships in general since the introduction of the Phantom?

I haven't. So far, I would never try and fight Soontir vs Whisper without extra extra help.

Aye,

Move over Phantom, Vader, he's the new shark.

As a player who often brings Soontir; I prefer to move last.

The ability to move out of arc is golden. Rebel Captive hardly bothers me.

Simply do not use PTL and opt for one action. (ideally move/BR out of arc, otherwise I prefer evade)

Shoot at Phantom with RC means stress = free focus for defense.

What this guy said. Shooting first is useless if you get arc dodged, possibly even leaving your Phantom without a valid target at all.

It's pretty easy to figure out tbh: Play a mirror match Phantom vs Phantom or Soontir vs Phantom. If both players are equally skilled the person who moves last should win much more often than the person who moves first.

The only situation where you would want to move first/Shoot first with your Phantom is against big turrets (Han,Chir) with equal PS. Even against somebody like Wedge it's usually better to move last/Shoot last because his arc is easy to dodge and he'll punch through your cloak anyway, if he gets a shot at you.

Aye,

Move over Phantom, Vader, he's the new shark.

And suddenly pilot skill 11 becomes a thing

"Couldn't you have it go up to 10 but just make 10 better"

"Yeah but this goes up to 11"

or something like that

You generally want to move second with either of those ships.

As a player who often brings Soontir; I prefer to move last.

The ability to move out of arc is golden. Rebel Captive hardly bothers me.

Simply do not use PTL and opt for one action. (ideally move/BR out of arc, otherwise I prefer evade)

Shoot at Phantom with RC means stress = free focus for defense.

Just wanted to add that Rebel Captive triggers when the attack is declared, so if Soontir has successfully dodged "Whisper's" arc, he could very well use that Focus on the attack to try to take her out.

Ive been running Echo AND Soontir with a shadow squadron pilot. I think its important to move 2nd with these ships, it makes getting out of arcs a lot easier IMO

There is no real question here for me, I would give the initiative to the soontir player so that I can decloak after him and not risk Soontir dodging my arc: You won't be able to recoak if you have no shot in the first place.

I had the inverse situation in my last tournament. I was playing Soontir and went up against Whisper. I had to choose if I wanted to get the initiative or not. I chose to give it to my opponent. This way, I could reliably get at least one shot on Whisper while setting some traps with my other ships. It didn't took long that the Phantom went down.

Depends if Whisper is running VI (which they usually are). But as a rule of thumb if you have pilots that match pilot skill you want to shoot first. Sure simultaneous fire means they will get an extra shot but they don't get the effects until after they attack. Do you want to shoot at 4 green dice or 2?

I don't mind shooting at 4, when I am out of arc, at R1, with Focus.

Do you want to shoot at 4 green dice or 2?

Counter argument: Do you want to shoot at 4 green dice or not at all? You won't get a shot if you give them the opportunity to dodge your arc in the first place.

If it was just a duel between both ships, I would tend to give the initiative to my opponent. Whisper has a lot to gain by arc dodging Soontir and leaving him with a PTL induced stress and Soontir has a lot to gain if he can arc dodge and deny Whisper her free recloak.

Things get more complex, however, when you take the mini swarm element of the equation. If we assume between 3 and 4 ties per side, things get uglier. Whisper will undoubtedly be able to get her free cloak regardless by shooting a tie fighter. If I was controlling Soontir, I would try to claim initiative and deny decloak possibilities by having one gigantic furball right from the start. Not sure if I controlled Whisper, the presence of the enemy swarm can be an advantage either way.

Both the Phantom and Interceptor fall into the same category of Maneuverable ships. Both want to arc dodge to have the advantage. So the simple answer is to always have the other Pilot Skill ships move first so you may use the decloak or Push the Limit to get into a superior position. This is a new territory for the Phantom to be in as they have not had to worry so much about this in the past since most other ps 9 ships had a turret on it.

We have lived in the world of high PS and now will see a new layer on this meta of getting low on points. 100pts will almost always be a bad idea as some of the better players are already shedding points from their list. 98pts or lower will be the norm very soon. Meanwhile the Darth Vader Crew card sits in waiting laughing at the effort aboard a Decimator with all these squishy targets.

For initiative bid I always say, screw it, add another 2 pt upgrade that helps me out play my opponent, and make my opponent choose whether he wants Init or not. There are perks and downsides to both, but it honestly affects HOW you play a lot more than one being better than the other. Even at PS 9 vs PS 9, blocking is still a great tactic. If I can get my Whisper to block a Soontir (and honestly Phantoms are great blockers), then the rest if my squad can gang up on the action less Fel. In Whisper vs Whisper fights, having Init means you want to set up shots at LONG range, letting your firing arc be more spread, and the enemy Whisper not super capable to avoid the arc.

Though I suppose I have grown to prefer my opponent having Init, even if Whisper gets to ACD cloak, and that is solely so I can choose whether I want to exchange a shot or disengage and shoot something else.

But again, if I have to give up a useful 2 pt upgrade to take an Init bid, I don't prefer it. Upgrades make the game way more fun, and things like Tactician, FCS, Autothrusters, Target CPU can help quite a bit and can make up for that Init bid that will only come into play during like 30% of the tournament matches.

depends on the list

I could see the merit of initiative when you're trolling around with soontir and a 5 tie mini-swarm. Pinch whisper in and blow her up before she re-cloaks

Otherwise, moving later is simply more reliable and in a 1 on 1 situation you definitely want to be moving after. ACD, FCS, and whisper's ability do nothing if she can't shoot you