Sorry about the double post, but apparently I cannot paste what I have written in MS Word into the forum box and hit publish.

Alright, I think there have been enough comments on the board to finally have it out-- which expansion is better Dunwich or Kingsport? Now, I own all the expansions and love them for different reasons, but I do have my favorites. No middle ground. Call it you see it and state your reasons. Here are mine:

Dunwich Village: Its dangerous. Much like Arkham's locations you do run a risk of having all your good works undone by bad encounters. Kingsport in my experinece, not so much. That makes for a less intresting time as far as AH goes and while watching all my hard work destroyed it only makes me determined to beat the game. I also think that other than Neil's Curiosity Shop, Dunwich has a much better special location selection. And considering you will be closing gates and fighting monsters in Dunwich- you will actually use them.

Dunwich Gates: This is a big for me as I am extremely motivated by gate openings because they bring you on step closer to the GOO if left open or victory if sealed. Also since Dunwich is more confined, when monsters start pouring in its gets a lot harder to clear them out particularly if you get your sanity or stamina knock low-- fewer routes to run down to avoid monsters. Since Kingsport has no unstable locations, I rarely see any monsters and while that creates a sort of safehaven it does little to keep tension cranked.

Vortices: This is a better mechanic than the rifts because it functions off the gates in Dunwich making them more important, increases the terror track which allows tighter connections with KiY and future expansions and powers and by releasing the Dunwich Horror, increases the Doom Track. Kingsport's rift system seems to take too long to gear up. You can also flip tokens or remove them as soon as they appear so that you have less work to do to close the rift.

Theme: I think Dunwich captures the theme of its source material better than Kingsport, despite the latter's in-game name dropping.

Now I do love the investigators in Kingsport (the Dreamer and Reporter being my favorites) and the additional Epic Battle cards, items ect. But for over all game play I will stick with Dunwich. Perhapes a Kingsport herald could add a twist that would change my mind. Again, sorry for the extra post.

Okay, I'll bite.

I'm gonna have to go with Dunwich, since it was more than just another Expansion: it was the "patch" that changed Arkham. After playing numerous games, a level of predictability was reached. I was still having fun (just because I'm a Cthulhu nut), but it WAS getting easier to win. Dunwich fixed that, snapping off the training wheels and not pulling any punches. Tougher AOs, meaner Encounters, soul-retching Mythos. That "predictability" was gone, and I was back on my toes.

Investigators: The eight DH Investigators play a lot closer to the original sixteen than the (hate this word) "overpowered" feeling of the KH ones. The DH ones are also, I think, simpler to play (that is, Lily is not for beginners, and neither is Charlie, Daisy, Lola, or Luke), and they aren't kinda "auto-jobbed" at the outset (Wendy? Gate Closer. Rex? Sidelined until Blessed, then Clue-munching Gate Closer). The KH Investigators feel like "Specialists", but the DH ones are "Grunts" like the rest. I prefer their versatility.

Madness/Injury Deck: Nothing in Kingsport is as cool as this deck, even as aged as it is. This deck revived the true feeling of the latter hours of a Chaosium Call of Cthulhu RPG adventure, as well as suddenly making Unconscious / Insane a more complex choice for the Investigator. Before, it was, "Dammit, now I have to lose half my stuff." Now, it's, "Ooo, should I lose half my stuff?" Masochists that we AH players are, we actually look at these decks as if they were GOOD things.

Investigator cards: I realize this is probably the most customized choice between the two, but to make it simple: 1) I love Tasks and Missions, as a concept and as a mini-game; 2) Cloud Memory makes Vincent one of the best original Spellcasters in the game (almost as effective as Carolyn), and I am forever grateful for that, as it changed the minds of a couple of my cultists about Dr. Lee's "uselessness"; 3) I love weapons that fire HUGE, but only once...so you better not miss...while your heart pounds as you roll. In the other box, items that need money to work SUCK, and so do Spell Checks that need multiple successes to be effective.

Board Mechanic: About half of my cult actually dig "playing their own game" as the Kingsport Sentinel. Just Encounter after Encounter, trying to avoid getting delayed or lost in the Dreamlands. I rather like it myself when I play solo. But the Dunwich Horror has a higher level of urgency that is much more gratifying, and it is more smoothly integrated with Arkham. That is, if you're in Dunwich, you still feel like you're in Arkham. That has to be attributed to Dunwich Gates.

Gate Bursts: The best "bouncer" to the most popular winning strategy. It matters just a little less about which Locations are the "hottest", since with one Mythos card, that wondrous Seal could be gone, and you're playing catch-up again. (Or the next Mythos card. Or the next one. Or that one. AUGH!) Granted, every expansion has Bursts now (and Kingsport has that blasted Spider)...but Dunwich did it first.

Monsters: This is probably the most balanced "battlefield" for me. I love Tcho-Tchos and Stalkers, but I dig Leng Spiders and Elusives too. (And someday I am destined to love Aquatics.) Wraiths and Colours are delightfully nasty, but so are things that DEVOUR you if you fail a Skill Check! But Dunwich gave us Spawn monsters. Not only are they just nifty (and often brutal) to deal with, but with a simple House Rule, Spawn rules can be used to make Nyarlathotep a hell of a lot more challenging to face.

That's probably enough. Yes, I love Heralds, and the Epic Final Battle cards, and the Livre d'Ivon, and all those horrific little dreams on the Hypnos cards, but overall, I would vote for Dunwich first.

I find that the Dunwich mechanics of extra gates to open gets diluted by having more mythos cards in the deck from other expansions. But the Kingsport mechanics of having Rifts build up doesn't ever have that problem.

-Frank

This is particularly difficult for me, as I like Dunwich alot - as a Yog-Sothoth fan, that is only natural. However, I'll have to side with Kingsport for a variety of reasons*:

1.) When using more than just Dunwich as an expansion, the main Dunwich mechanics/threats, those being more unstable locations and the Dunwich Horror, tend to lose importance since the cards responsible for them just don't turn up anymore. With Kingsport, the vortices will be a constant threat, no matter how many expansions are added, thus one has enough reasons to go there.

2.) Injury and Madness cards are cool, but make the game easier for the investigators. Lots easier. I love them for the same reasons that jgt7771 states, as I find that damage to mind and body are important aspects of character developement when confronted with the mythos. However, Kingsport gives us the Epic Battle cards, which are superb in giving the ancient one some much needed bite. The latter is more important to me, as I'm more of a purist and already despise the abillity to dynamite Shub-Niggurath in the face...or multi-functional near-geaseous orifices in this case.

3.) As far as Ancient ones and investigators go - well, those aren't important points to me (everything randomly done in my group anyhow). I like the Dunwich Horror investigators better overall, and some of the Kingsport investigators are a bit powerful. With ancient ones, I enjoy the Kingsport ones a bit more (very deadly and interesting mechanics), despite me liking the Clark Ashton Smith ancient ones alot background-wise (Tsathoggua, Abhoth, and of course Atlach-Nacha).

4.) Heralds and Guardians = more content that changes the game each time it is played. Good.

The rest of the stuff which the expansions gave us are fairly non-issues to me (investigator cards and so on. More variety is fun to me, no matter the actual value of the items. Nearly worthless items do have their place). That being said, I enjoyed the crazy variety of allies you got in Kingsport (Herbert West, Charles Dexter Ward AND Asenath Waite? Oh yeah!). But given what sort of people those are, they are also a bit odd choices for allies, so Kingsport does not gain any points for them. (thinking about the examples I gave, having both Jeffrey Coombs and Vincent Price as allies is sort of sweet though...hadn't thought of it that way before!)

Of course, if we take a historical view on it, Dunwich, when it came out, fixed a whole slew of issues (slowdown of possible gates spawning, gate bursts). But given the question, I found it unfair to view Dunwich like this - if someone went and bought Arkham Horror today, and had to choose between one of the two, then I think Kingsport would be the better choice, due to the varied content (Kingsport has gate bursts too, after all, which are good at fixing some issues) listed above.

*I'm assuming a group of 4 players here. I usually play 2-player games, but those look very different to the 3-5 player games I've played. If I assumed 2-player groups, then I'd still go with Kingsport, but thought I'd mention this anyway.

Victimizer said:

I think someone is cheating, Shub-Niggurath has Physical Immunity . Or you can Dynamite her, she just doesn't even blink.

Thanks...I suppose I deserve that for changing Yog to Shubby mid-sentence for no reason other than to talk about a different ancient one. Very Well, then, *cough*:

'...where you can dynamite Yog-Sothoth into his darkling protoplasmic spheres.' (I'll leave that post unedited, so that your reply still makes sense)

Frank said:

This is a very good point about Kingsport that I over looked. Its it true that inorder to play Dunwich with AH and other expansion you do need to edit the Mythos desk a little bit inorder to retain the ration of DH to AH locations.

ha ha this is the real post... DH>KH

I am going to be stoned for this, but.... Kingsport. Kingsport is a much more interesting town and the rift mechanic is simply ingenious as it can never be diluted. Also, Epic Battle>Injury/Madness. Without Epic Battle the final battle is waaaay too easy.

So yeah, sorry guys, but I'll have to go with Kingsport.

kroen said:

If you prepare for them, only Azathoth, Cthulhu and Tsathoggua should be hard either with or without EB (excluding KH GOOs). Without preparing, none are really easy, with or without EB. From reading the EB cards and the recent thread about rarity of getting to the Reds, which are the only real difficult ones IMO, don't see a lot of difference on the surface. Getting to the Reds takes 8 turns, only ones I've fought even that long is Glaaki and even then once. 4 investigators (which I use) should win/lose in 4-5 turns max.

I'm gonna go with Dunwich. As much as I love Kingsport and appreciate the never-diluting rift mechanic, Dunwich's horror and vortexes are more thematically awesome. The investigators are a bit more balanced and I like them more. Dunwich brings more new elements to the table. The Stalker movement currently gets more action than the Aquatic movement (NEVER seen it happen. I hope Innsmouth will change that).

However, I would rather have Epic Battle than Injury/Madness.

Just please...don't make me have to choose! Take my Black Goat away if you have to steal one expansion...

Dam said:

There is a huge difference actually. Having to lose sanity or stamina or items to attack some rounds and being blindsided by the Sinister Plot both have much more of an impact than would appear by just reading the cards. Trust me on this.

Dam said:

Well before Kingsport my win ration in the final battle was 90% and now my lose ratio is 90% so yeah, it makes the game harder...

Epic Battle=Makes the game harder.

Injury/Madness=Makes the game easier.

Tibs said:

There are also boosts for the investigators in the EB cards. But mainly, any groups that's geared up, will in all likelyhood have multiple weapons for each investigator, not to mention everyone at tip-top Sta/San condition.

kroen said:

Epic Battle = makes final combat harder, has absolutely no effect during the game before that

And seeing as how final combat takes place (for me) after I've failed in my primary goal, it's all very m-e-h at that point.

Where are you from, Kroen, Iran? Those of us in the U.S. don't stone the insane; we pity them .

I'm a bit surprised to see people other than Kroen speaking up for Kingsport. I personally find Dunwich's superiority to be almost self-evident.

When I got basic Arkham, I found the game to be almost a joke; wonderful in so many ways, but presenting no real challenge. Dunwich's additional five unstable locations were absolutely essential to make the threat of the AO awakening a real one. I cannot imagine playing the game again with only eleven unstable locations.

It puzzles me how anyone can find Kingsport to be more interesting than Dunwich. With a handful of exceptions, Kingsport's encounters are uniformly bland and little is at stake in them, one way or the other. Dunwich's are far more flavorful and much more potentially game-changing. Wizard's Hill alone has better encounters than all of Kingsport, save only those in the Strange High House in the Mists.

I also rate Dunwich's AO's above Kingsport's, with Glaaki, Abhoth and Shudde M'ell being three of the five best AO's in the game.

The Rift mechanic is inqenious and cannot be diluted, but what no one has yet pointed out is that the rifts are also quite easily prevented. Station an Investigator in Kingsport and rifts will almost never open; one Investigator alone renders the entire board and mechanic useless as a threat. Dunwich, on the other hand, is not so easily neutered, not by any means. A sole Investigator there might indeed fail and fall, especially if multiple Dunwich gates open.

Unlike most, I rate the Epic Battle cards light-years ahead of Injury and Madness. Those cards are the best innovation to come to Arkham since, well, since Dunwich's five additional gates! Dam, if I interpret what I've read correctly, you have never played Kingsport? So you have never played the Epic Battle cards, correct? If so, it seems odd that you should be prepared to render such a sweeping verdict on them, one I find manifestly incorrect.

Without touching the question of preparing the whole game to fight the AO, I will point out that the Epic Battle cards do a great deal to make the final battle more difficult. No, the Reds are NOT the only difficult cards; the Greens cause plenty of trouble. Even more challenge is added by the Sinister Plot cards, one of which will always come up sometime in the first eight turns of battle. Several of the AO's have Sinister Plots which can essentially win the fight for them outright, should they come up. Before we started using the Epic Battle cards, Yig had never won, and Nyarlathotep had won once or twice. Now Yig has defeated us and Nyarlathotep, whicle still one of the easier AO's to beat, has definitely increased the frequency of his victories.

As for final battle taking place after you've failed in your primary goal, it is certainly your right to look at it that way, rather than seeing the final battle as your last desperate attempt to save the world from the rampaging Ancient One.

Dunwich for me! The Kingsport rifts are quite clever, but they're less thematically exciting than the Dunwich Horror, and the cost of them not being able to be diluted is that Kingsport is a dull place to visit - most of the locations don't have enough distinctive encounters.

The big difference is basically that in Dunwich, you feel like you're inside the workings of the board, and it's all happening around you - so the timing mechanism is part of the board, and the result (the Horror itself) appears on the board, and you have to attack it directly. In Kingsport, all you do is wander around having Arkham Encounters like normal, and they tick a few boxes and the threat's gone. There's a much weaker connection between the danger and what you have to do to combat it.

Sweet, my post is back from Lost in Time & Space.

I do enjoy the Epic Battle Cards/Sinister Plot cards and think they add a lot especially to the "older" GOOs and also it keeps the end battle feeling more epic than constantly rolling dice does.

However, Injury/Madness cards also add to the game's theme and provides another RPG-like element to the characters by modifying the investigators over the course of the game and I really find that awesome. Afterall if you are sent to the Hospital multiple times in a week or month, you think you would walk out with a little more than a band-aid and $2 lighter. But also my other players enjoy them because it allows them to keep their characters going longer and minimzes that one bad roll. Having to start new characters mid-game is always a pain and that character is always at a disadvantage.

So if my players are happy and it keeps them playing then that is a good thing for me!

For me its Kingsport. Heres why:

I started playing after Dunwich was released (a couple months after) so I didn't get to anticipate it as much as I did Kingsport. I didn't get to be really excited and eager wait its release like I did for Kingsport. When I got Dunwich it was old news to everyone else. But when I first got Kingsport everyone was still dealing with it.

Now for real reasons: Boards: To be honest, I have never taken an encounter in a stable Dunwich location and I've never used its ability. I would only ever go up to Dunwich if a gate opens up there or monsters are created there. On the other hand, I would go to Kingsport for a few spots abilities and I would go to Kingsport in hopes of getting to the House in the Mist (Changed is worth the time sink, as are a few of the stronger encounters up there too).

Mechanics: Rifts are boring, but always relevant. They are always a problem and always be. Ignoring them spells certain death. Now fro Dunwich, its not something that is always relevant. While the Dunwich Horror has lost some of its scariness withi each expansion, its still a strong monster. Its not something I have to always fear, but when something does go bad, you'd better get up there. Personally, I think the rift mechanic is a better mechanic, design wise. A portal opening in Dunwich is more exciting, but in the end I think Rifts are the better mechanic.

Theme/Atmosphere: There is only one story (that I am aware of) that focuses on Dunwich and takes place there. So the entire board had to be based off that one short story. They did a good job for what I had. However, Kingsport has many stories based off it (The Festivel, The White Ship, Strange High House in the Mist, to name a few) and whenever I play on the Kingsport I feel the atmosphere of a (mostly) normal town where most of what goes on is mundane, but there are hints of something horrible going on.

GOOs: The Dunwich GOOs are tough, no doubt about that. But with the exception of Shudde, I find them generally boring to fight, particularly in final combat. I think the Kingsport GOOs are much more fun to fight in combat. Whether its the incredibly creepy brood tokens, the investigators picking one amongst their ranks to be devoured to Atlach, or hoping that your focus roll is good against Yibb, its just more exciting.

Investigators: I must give this one to Dunwich. While I like many of the Kingsport investigators some of them do seem just too strong or more gimmicky of characters. Leo and Wilson have become classic investigators within my group. Many of the casual players are still working out the Kingsport characters, but Dunwich wins here.

Madness/Injury v Epic Battle: While I really appreciate Madness and Injuries, I think that the Epic Battle cards are fantastic. Everytime I go insane or unconcious I generally take the madness/injury. But Epic Battle is amazing. I still remember the first time we used the Epic Battle cards. We hadn't read any of them and were venturing into the complete unkown. It was against Yibb. Reading the flavor texts and hearing the groans of agony or sighs of relief from the players was well worth it. I just wish there were more or more could be released so we wouldn't become so expectant or accustomed to the cards. We still haven't seen some reds and some sinister plots. If you don't have Kingsport, when you get it, DON'T READ THE EPIC BATTLE CARDS! Keep them a surprise. Its much more worth it.

But yea, Kingsport

umm, i think i will add my 2 cents.

Injury/madness vs epic battle: I think that the epic cards add what i always thought was missing to the final battle, and that is flavor!! the i/m cards are great but if they didnt exist the game wouldnt be that impacted. Not saying i dont love the i/m cards but epics are better.

boards: ummm, the dunwich horror is a great mechanic, but i like the locations in Kingsport better. umm, i give it to dunwich.

investigators: kingsport all the way, i love those crazy guys!

goos: tie cant say one is better then the other.

monsters: dunwich had better monsters.

so far a tie...... need a tie breaker, oh yeah i hate the rift mechanic!!! Dunwich wins!

Hrm... Well... Just judging in terms of preference, I'd say I'd go with Dunwich. I think its monsters were better than Kingsport's (although I do love the Kingsport Masks). True, injury and madness aren't that threatening, but they are fun especially if you house rule the game to not allow retiring :') I'm not really crazy about the Kingsport AOs (or The Dunwich AOs for that matter— okay fine, I kindof like Abhoth and Glaaki— I'm a sucker for monster tokens). Mmmm... I like the specialist investigators in Kingsport. Even though some of the are a bit overpowered, I like how they bring a greater variety to game strategies. I think Kingsport is a bit boring to explore, although I've been looking forward to Innsmouth's increase of aquatic creatures to spice up the town a bit :') And of course, Epic Battle was an excellent addition (goes without saying). ::Shrug:: I'm going to pick Dunwich over the gateless town. Seriously...

Good monster additions: Colour Out of Space, Goat Spawn, Hunting Horror, Mummy, Rat Thing, Star Vampire, Tcho-tcho, Wraith, and Wizard Whateley vs. Crawling One, Shan, Tcho-tcho Priest, and Werewolf. No contest. And no, Leng Spiders are not interesting ;')