Each Sunday I go and play X-Wing, and people will often say "you wanna play Rebels or Imperials", to which I often reply "It doesn't matter, play whatever you want... who cares if it ends up being Rebel vs Rebel, or Imp vs Imp..... Tournaments don't care so why should we? In fact the last tournament I was in, there was only 1 single Imp build and every other build was Rebel.... So that kinda shatters the argument that that the game can't have a 3rd faction, because this game is Rebel vs Imperial.... in my eyes it's Rebel vs Rebel, since the overwhelming majority in my local meta is rebel builds, and always has been since I've been playing. (I'm sure it differs from place to place, but that is simply my point of view).

But if you are a purist, who wants the game to be strictly Rebel vs Imperial, how woudl you feel about a tournament rule that states you MUST have 2 builds to enter - One Rebel, and One Imperial. You MAY share upgrades between the two builds, but must be prepared to fly EITHER build at any given point in time, and this way no mirror matches would be permitted - even in a tournament. Thoughts?

The reason behind no third faction isn't "It's Rebel versus Imperial", it's that it's been Rebel and Imperial for so long. If this were to be a three faction triangular game then they'd have to have made it so at Wave 2 at the latest. We've done Wave 4. Any third faction either is going to be highly disadvantaged by having two ships compared to the Empire and Rebels (which have eight), and will never catch up unless the Rebels and Empire are sidelined. I can see a neutral pool of ships being added, but not a Black Sun/Hutt Cartel/Zann Consortium third faction.

It's not purism, it's the practicalities of game design.

Everyone locally to me has their favourite faction, but all of us will use either side as the mood strikes.

It would be a bit of a challenge, in a way, to flip between two different squads in a tournament I'd think. I like having my mind set on the tactics I'll be using for the squad I've picked, the set-up, deployment and the overall synergy of the units. I'd also potentially be needing more time to set-up and break-down my squads even more between matches.

I'm fine with mirror matches. I just call it a training session if Wedge is flying against Luke. I realize it ruffles some feathers for a few hard core fans, but it makes no difference to me.

That could work for a casual tournament/event, we have a "campaign" story based event every other Saturday at my local flgs thatis this way. Everyone picks their side before being divided up, given a mission objective, and then matched with a random member of the opposing faction for a single match.It's a whole lot of fun. But some people, myself included, can only fly one faction because that's all they have. I don't really buy imperial ships. My budget is limited, so I prioritise rebel ship purchases, and therefore could not put together a decent empire build, or fly it well for that matter.

I prefer not to fly mirror matches if I can help it. I never do mirror games outside of a tournament setting.

It takes away the some of the theme for me and to me theme is one of the most fun parts of this game.

It brings it away from Empire vs Rebels and makes it just a game again if that makes any sense.

It's the same way when people fly their Lamdas with the wings up. That's not how they fly!

@Lagomorphia : they could launch a third faction with 1 or 2 ships and allow it to pick some of the ships from the rebels/imperial pool (rebel side : Z95, YT1300, YT-2400, imperial side : Tie fighter, Firespray), maybe with a cardboard/upgrade card only expansion for third faction pilots.

I don't think it's likely though with Armada being released.

When Lord of the Rings was released, we had the same 2 factions issue : some tournament had you bring 2 lists and switch sides, with 2 battles to determine a winner. But most allowed mirror matches.

The reason behind no third faction isn't "It's Rebel versus Imperial", it's that it's been Rebel and Imperial for so long. If this were to be a three faction triangular game then they'd have to have made it so at Wave 2 at the latest. We've done Wave 4. Any third faction either is going to be highly disadvantaged by having two ships compared to the Empire and Rebels (which have eight), and will never catch up unless the Rebels and Empire are sidelined. I can see a neutral pool of ships being added, but not a Black Sun/Hutt Cartel/Zann Consortium third faction.

It's not purism, it's the practicalities of game design.

No other big minis game ever has had trouble adding a new faction to thier game even years after that game has been established. Warmachine started in 2003 with 4 factions. Today they are up to 12, the latest of which was just added last year, after the main 4 armies had a 10 year head start. Even the newest faction is very popular and comepetent despite its numercal disabvantage in models compared to other factions. This is due to each faction providng unique rules, asthetics, and play experiences.

To the OP: I am not a purist. There are far too many scenarios possible in this game to be so. Remember that time when Porkins and Lando teamed up against a squadrom of Tie Phantoms that ambushed them? I don't either. I also would not play in such a tournament as I do not own a single Rebel ship, nor do I plan on ever doing so.

It wouldn't be the best... but adding a 3rd faction could just be something like Mercenaries that are available to either faction. Maybe you can only have X points of mercenary forces in any squad.

I prefer not to fly mirror matches if I can help it. I never do mirror games outside of a tournament setting.

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I would think that you would be at a significant disadvantage this way. Since you WILL have to play mirror matches in a tournament, you will not have practice testing your squads against ships with the same strengths that you do.

An example might be if you played rebel, and only ever played against imperials. Most Imperial Fighters (Pre-Wave 4 at least) have high agility and no shields, so perhaps you grow accustomed to playing pilots like Ten Numb with Marksmanship... but in a tournament now you are facing X-Wings and B-Wings and that uncancelled crit simply goes to shields and kinda negates a large portion of your build.

I just like the old "Train as you Fight" mantra - but that's just me.

The reason behind no third faction isn't "It's Rebel versus Imperial".

Many many people in the 3 (4?) current 3rd faction threads are claiming that it IS because the game is rebels vs imperials.

I'm not much for tournaments, so I don't really care, but if I did I would prefer to not have to develop, practice, pack and bring an extra squad. I don't mind mirror matches in regular games so I certainly wouldn't mind them in tourneys.

Mirror matches are fine by me...I see them as training exercises..hell, I consider my rebel ships to be captured and repurposed imperial training vessels.

I do prefer the imp v reb fight however.

The main argument against the a new faction should be the following:

Precedent doesn't support it. Smugglers, pirates, and bounty Hunters already exist in the 2 factions we have. Why can't we incorporate these "fringe" type ships into the existing factions as has already been done?

There are many of us that, for various reasons, don't want to start a new fleet from scratch to be able to enjoy new content.

Current factions could grow stale as ffg would have to pour excess development resources into this new faction to make it competitive with the current ones. Yes new card upgrades would be compatible...but see argument 2. New imp and reb ships could slow to a crawl.

I'm with RogueLieutenant on this one. Personally I would prefer a two-list tournament as well. Rebel vs. rebels just feels wrong.

Mirror matches are totally fine. I would happily play in a tournament that didn't allow mirror matches (because it's fun to try something a little different from time to time) but I'm also happy to play in standard tournaments where mirrors are a possibility.

I do think the game really is about Rebels vs. Imperials, though, and the tournament scene is a secondary consideration that allows mirror matches as a matter of practical necessity.

My local gaming group seems to instinctively avoid mirror matches in casual play, but we do have a standard tournament coming up and I've suggested that it might be a good idea to play some mirror matches before then.

If this thread is just an excuse to talk about why there should or shouldn't be a third faction, I'll stick with my position that I don't think new factions are likely, but I think that has more to do with my assumption that the designer's vision for the game is a good-guys vs. bad-guys thing, and not a matter of whether a third faction could be balanced. I have no way of knowing if FFG ever will introduce a new faction, but my hunch is that they won't. I think there are interesting possibilities in placing Star Wars spaceships into the two factions we currently have, with the possibility of some mercenary units that can fall into either faction but do not count as a faction on their own.

If I were a designer/developer/producer for this game, I'd be looking at other ships and factions in the Star Wars universe and asking myself "Would this ship be more likely to be in the service of the Empire or the Rebels?" And I think in almost every case it would be pretty easy to make that call. Hutt stuff goes Imperial. Bounty hunters go Imperial. Smugglers' Alliance goes Rebel. Even if the game dips into the prequel/Clone Wars era, Aethersprite goes Rebel, as do Naboo starfighters. Sith Infiltrator and vulture droids go Imperial. (Having Wedge fight Darth Maul would be weird, but not much weirder than having Lando fly the Falcon with Dash Rendar as a crew member against Darth Vader.)

Since we already have a large number of 3rd faction (&etc.) threads, I'll stick to the OP's main question.

I think it would be awesome to have a tournament that prevents mirror matches.

I don't really get annoyed at mirror matches, but I don't get tickled by them the way that I do an IvR match. Now, if we had a good story to give the mirror match narrative stakes that would be a different thing. Sure, Imperial factionalism was a thing, but... meh. I need more than just that realization.

There would be the question of which opponent has to switch to the faction that they don't prefer. I'd be interested to see the solution to that quandary. Random? Preference to the underdog?

I'm going to run an Escalation tournament here next month, and after that we'll do a no-mirror-match tournament. Here's how I'm planning to run it:

Players must bring two lists, one Imperial and one Rebel, up to 100 points each.

For the first round, each pair of players shows up and reveals their preferences. If they agree, that's what they play. If they disagree, there's a roll-off. (Both players roll three attack dice, counting hits and critical hits; most results wins). The winner of the roll-off gets to play their preference, and the loser plays the opposing faction.

At the end of the first round, each player receives a card matching the faction they just played as. The Imperial card says: "You have played as Imperials. Add +1 die during the roll-off to play as Rebels." Reverse it on the Rebel cards.

It'll be a three-round tournament, so during the third round if you've been stuck with playing as Imperials for two rounds and you'd really like to play as Rebels, at that point you'll have two cards and will get to roll 2 extra dice during the roll-off to play as Rebels.

Of course, you could end up going through the whole tournament playing as the one faction you really prefer without ever needing to go to a roll-off.

To prevent illicit trading of these cards, the players' names will be written on their cards.

I'm going to run an Escalation tournament here next month, and after that we'll do a no-mirror-match tournament. Here's how I'm planning to run it:

Players must bring two lists, one Imperial and one Rebel, up to 100 points each.

For the first round, each pair of players shows up and reveals their preferences. If they agree, that's what they play. If they disagree, there's a roll-off. (Both players roll three attack dice, counting hits and critical hits; most results wins). The winner of the roll-off gets to play their preference, and the loser plays the opposing faction.

At the end of the first round, each player receives a card matching the faction they just played as. The Imperial card says: "You have played as Imperials. Add +1 die during the roll-off to play as Rebels." Reverse it on the Rebel cards.

It'll be a three-round tournament, so during the third round if you've been stuck with playing as Imperials for two rounds and you'd really like to play as Rebels, at that point you'll have two cards and will get to roll 2 extra dice during the roll-off to play as Rebels.

Of course, you could end up going through the whole tournament playing as the one faction you really prefer without ever needing to go to a roll-off.

To prevent illicit trading of these cards, the players' names will be written on their cards.

I like it but instead of cards you could just let people do it on the honor system and if a roll off occurs with bonus dice, give them the option to consult the TO to verify that you DID indeed play rebels last round? Depend on how many people really. If you are running 12 or less I think it'd be pretty easy to remember and people usually stay honest in small numbers.

I prefer not to fly mirror matches if I can help it. I never do mirror games outside of a tournament setting.

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I would think that you would be at a significant disadvantage this way. Since you WILL have to play mirror matches in a tournament, you will not have practice testing your squads against ships with the same strengths that you do.

An example might be if you played rebel, and only ever played against imperials. Most Imperial Fighters (Pre-Wave 4 at least) have high agility and no shields, so perhaps you grow accustomed to playing pilots like Ten Numb with Marksmanship... but in a tournament now you are facing X-Wings and B-Wings and that uncancelled crit simply goes to shields and kinda negates a large portion of your build.

I just like the old "Train as you Fight" mantra - but that's just me.

Yeah, but not every game has to be about tournament preparation. It's a lot more fun, imo, to play Rebel vs. Imperial, though I don't really mind playing mirror matches and I've played in a few tourneys this summer.

I'd love to take part in a tournament where there are no mirror matches.

The reason behind no third faction isn't "It's Rebel versus Imperial", it's that it's been Rebel and Imperial for so long. If this were to be a three faction triangular game then they'd have to have made it so at Wave 2 at the latest. We've done Wave 4. Any third faction either is going to be highly disadvantaged by having two ships compared to the Empire and Rebels (which have eight), and will never catch up unless the Rebels and Empire are sidelined. I can see a neutral pool of ships being added, but not a Black Sun/Hutt Cartel/Zann Consortium third faction.

It's not purism, it's the practicalities of game design.

No other big minis game ever has had trouble adding a new faction to thier game even years after that game has been established. Warmachine started in 2003 with 4 factions. Today they are up to 12, the latest of which was just added last year, after the main 4 armies had a 10 year head start. Even the newest faction is very popular and comepetent despite its numercal disabvantage in models compared to other factions. This is due to each faction providng unique rules, asthetics, and play experiences.

Those other minis games created their own worlds, so it makes some sense that they would expand. I think FFG has shown that their design plan with X-wing thematically is actually maintaining a Rebel vs. Imperial feel that was in the original trilogy. They've dipped into the EU, but have maintained that theme with no "mercenary faction" and no pilot crossover. Maybe they'll eventually change their minds down the road, but I really don't think you'll see it anytime soon and certainly not a gencon announcement.

I soured on mirror matches after my very first tournament, the Kessel Run way back before Wave 2. Two TIE swarms against each other was a miserable experience.

I like it but instead of cards you could just let people do it on the honor system and if a roll off occurs with bonus dice, give them the option to consult the TO to verify that you DID indeed play rebels last round? Depend on how many people really. If you are running 12 or less I think it'd be pretty easy to remember and people usually stay honest in small numbers.

I prefer to do a little extra work if it makes things run smoother. The cards are already printed.

Could be neat if players arrived at tournaments with 2 lists...one rebel and one imperial. Players could roll off and the winner got the choice of list and the opponent had to take the opposite faction.