I did mean alienate, but Luddite is for a particular example. The actual group of people in the 19th century who opposed new technology in their particuar industries towards the beginning of the industrial revolution?

Game mechanics don't save lives, there's no reason to get in this much a huff over it.

Nim it certainly doesn't give you that, but he/she was close. It doesn't give you the permission to insult people. I can also see where you're coming from on not liking the system, but Beta 1 wasn't much better in terms on nonconvoluted anything. The 41st millenium is generally considered a philisophical point on futility to a lot of people. Humanity is fighting a losing battle slowly bleeding to death, the point is surviving just a little longer no matter the cost.

No, beyond just referring to the religious group, Luddite is also a term used to refer to people who resist new technology or change. It has multiple meanings. I'm not invoking the religious group specifically.

What are you even talking about right now? No one, literally no one is stopping you from streamlining modifiers so it is at the place you want it to be. I doubt FFG will go Skynet on us with the d100 system.

Wait...when did Luddites become a religious group?

Wait...when did Luddites become a religious group?

Ha, **** you're right. Messed up my history. ThenDoctor had me thinking of Religious groups that don't use certain medicines.

What are you even talking about right now? No one, literally no one is stopping you from streamlining modifiers so it is at the place you want it to be. I doubt FFG will go Skynet on us with the d100 system.

It's hard to streamline modifiers in a game system entirely based around using them.

Simply remove any modifiers you deem too small, complicated, or advanced and go off range. It's a matter of removing parts of the system you don't want.

Except those modifiers are intended by the game To be used for baseline levels of competency. You can't just change things in a system without them affecting other things. Come on, this is game design 101.

I'd appreciate if you didn't insinuate an inability on my part to understand how the game functions on a basic level.

It simply requires work if you don't want to use the game as it was given to you at creation. Throne on Terra it's as if you want to be spoonfed. If you legitimately have this much of an issue with it look to the community for other people's fixes of fix it yourself and run a homebrew system.

I'd appreciate if you didn't insinuate an inability on my part to understand how the game functions on a basic level, even though I have not yet demonstrated any hint of such an ability.

It simply requires work if you don't want to use the game as it was written when you paid for it. Throne on Terra it's as if you want to be spoonfed a well-polished, functional game system. If you legitimately have this much of an issue with mechanics that have well documented limitations look to the community for random idiots' "fixes" of do the work of full-time, paid game designers yourself and run a homebrew system.

Oh look who's picking a fight. I'm starting to wonder if you're just trolling at this point, cps.

The system works, and while it is not perfect, nothing is and will be. There is no need for all the bashing and negativism.

I'm not trying to pick a fight. It would be nice to have a discussion about mechanics and not be met with "Why don't you do better if you hate it so much?" and "You are an entitled whinger for complaining about the game not working well when you buy it."

I'm not asking for perfect. I'm asking for progress. Something some people think should never happen.

Ah yes, CPS must surely be a troll for disagreeing people. Civil discussion should only consist of positive remarks and condescension. Daring to call someone demonstrating a lack of knowledge as ignorant is just trolling.

Just because something functions (which the last iteration of the beta failed to do in certain areas) does not mean that it's adequate, let alone praise-worthy.

He's certainly not getting points for insinuating everyone that suggests a house rule is an idiot.

There is progress however, it's simply very small iteration. You want more however. I know the asking him to do some work himself is an old empty statement, but in this case he can actually fix it on his own.

He's certainly not getting points for insinuating everyone that suggests a house rule is an idiot.

There is progress however, it's simply very small iteration. You want more however. I know the asking him to do some work himself is an old empty statement, but in this case he can actually fix it on his own.

You didn't say house rule - you said homebrew system. And I didn't suggest either were idiots, just that the vast majority of rules changes out there are poorly thought-through. House rules exist as small alteration to the game to make the game work better for your group, NOT to fix the game's core mechanic. The case in question (d100's reliance on loading up on modifiers) isn't something that can be changed without having large effects on the system and casting it as "oh well just stop counting modifiers for X" shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how the game works.

My original post mentioned fixes, to me that falls under House rules if the system itself isn't broken. I'm really trying to think through it here, but I can't think of any major consequence to the system if you only pay attention to range and item enhancements for example. It gets rid of environmental modifiers and cover modifiers (which can still be effective if you only count them as extra armor to a location) and certain combat actions. All these things can then be reworked.

I may not be seeing the entire picture though, feel free to educate me.

Just want to say thanks to Tim for being okay with me ragging on his system and making jokes about it.

And ThenDoctor, cover is assumed due to it being important for survival. The ranges are kind of assumed to due to how long weapon ranges are when compared to how large a grid is. That and weapon and action modifiers still end up being a lot of things to keep track of for what should be a basic attack. The less modifiers you keep track of, the more you get down to missing your shot more than half the time. In order to give probabilities that don't result in a lot of whiffing, you HAVE to use all of the modifiers.

Then increase the value of the modifiers you want to pay attention to.

Mr. Huckelbery seemed like a cool dude when I met him last year.

It seems this thread has devolved into a forum for those that don't like the current system in place for DH2 instead of answering the OP's question.Maybe it would be better served to have a seperate thread discussing/debating that versus here.

Hopefully the OP has enough feedback to make his own decision.If you like DH1 then you will love DH2.

Then increase the value of the modifiers you want to pay attention to.

Mr. Huckelbery seemed like a cool dude when I met him last year.

And suddenly those modifiers become much more important to hold onto and are a huge penalty when not available. Again, this is why you don't just toss out random house rules.

It seems this thread has devolved into a forum for those that don't like the current system in place for DH2 instead of answering the OP's question.Maybe it would be better served to have a seperate thread discussing/debating that versus here.

Hopefully the OP has enough feedback to make his own decision.If you like DH1 then you will love DH2.

I'd put it this way: if the OP liked Only War, the new DH basically gives you the option to make acolytes instead of guardsmen using that system. There are rules for social encounters that could use refinement but are interesting. You no longer track money and just acquire things through rolling and an abstracted influence system. There's a system for subtlety in investigations, but it was not very well implemented as of the last beta.

In conparison to the original dark heresy:

There are a lot less skills, and they're more consolidated.

Some minor tweaks have been made to combat in the form of autofire/multiple attacks and for righteous furies.

Characters now can buy any advance at any time, provides tey have the prerequisite advantages. Xp costs are based on aptitudes assigned during character creation.

Character creation doesn't have archetypal classes and instead has home planets, job backgrounds, and roles that are chosen from.

Psychic powers are more tight mechanically but there are no loner minor powers and most of te powers are different kinds of attacks or bonuses to attacking.

There's a new sector/setting.

There are new talents, some old talents are gone, some are modified

There are various other tweaks to things.

Yep I've had my question answered and will definitely be looking at getting it sometime in the future.

Thanks to everyone who has put their thoughts in on the system.

May not be a perfect system but I do enjoy and have enjoyed it more since the enhancements made from Black Crusade onwards and I'm not a big fan of combat focused games so I think I will actually enjoy this a lot more than Only War.

Now you may continue arguing about...... well to be honest I've kind of lost track of and interest in all the arguments going on now

Hence why I am patching up Beta #1. ;-)

Neat! I generally do like the principle of it, truth be told, and would love to have a peek at a patched version myself.

Well sorry but I just don't agree with anyone who says the DH or any other 40K mechanic is awesome, its lags out a game is boring and chargen to me is down right atrocious. I thin they could have come up with an entire revamp that could have been far more player and GM friendly then what we got in any version, and I have been a long time 40K player until lately due to health issues. I have to say I still prefer the Star Wars system more and Dr. WHO by C7 really any more than what FFGs putting out now with the 40K stuff, pictures are 2nd to me, mechanics and system are primary, if the system sucks, wtf do I care about pictures?

Flying are you still talking about DH1? or are you talking about both DH1 and DH2? Because I'd like to hear some explanations as to why you think the character generation is atrocious. Comparing the systems in terms of generation DH2 is a breeze and allows a lot of leeway in terms of what you want the character to be.

They did try and come up with a revamp however, that was the first beta, the community disagreed with the direction and it was scrapped for what we have now in DH2.

Well sorry but I just don't agree with anyone who says the DH or any other 40K mechanic is awesome, its lags out a game is boring and chargen to me is down right atrocious. I thin they could have come up with an entire revamp that could have been far more player and GM friendly then what we got in any version, and I have been a long time 40K player until lately due to health issues. I have to say I still prefer the Star Wars system more and Dr. WHO by C7 really any more than what FFGs putting out now with the 40K stuff, pictures are 2nd to me, mechanics and system are primary, if the system sucks, wtf do I care about pictures?

I'm not exactly the most positive person about this system, but this seems overly negative even to me. What purpose does trashing the system this much (without actually saying what IS wrong with it) serve?

Well flyingcircus, I guess the 40k RPGs are just not for you.

I hope you'll enjoy Star Wars.