The rules failed at the fundamental level of actually evoking the setting an theme of the game.

I disagree on a fundamental level. Dark Heresy has always been essentially Cthulhu in space. It plays like that. It has involved combat, and an involved sanity system that makes the characters eventually unplayable which is a core theme of the Warhammer universe as a whole.

I really hate what they did to the Warhammer Fantasy system as a whole. The special dice and cards...cards, don't get me started on cards.

The rules failed at the fundamental level of actually evoking the setting an theme of the game.

I disagree on a fundamental level. Dark Heresy has always been essentially Cthulhu in space. It plays like that. It has involved combat, and an involved sanity system that makes the characters eventually unplayable which is a core theme of the Warhammer universe as a whole.

I really hate what they did to the Warhammer Fantasy system as a whole. The special dice and cards...cards, don't get me started on cards.

Agreed. There is one instance where you get a disease and it takes up on of your skill slots(?) How does that even work? just becuz i got the red pox doesn't mean i don't know how to wield a two handed sword anymore! ugh...

I personally am looking forward to getting DH2. I agree with H.B.M.C. that the OW system works well so why wouldn't you use it as a mechanical basis for another game in the same universe?

As to those who perpetually insist that WFRP 3.0 was sooo great, Please explain the following:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=4983

If the game had that much of a following it would have continued to thrive! D&D 2nd ed. did for almost 20 yrs! D&D 3rd (And 3.5) was cut off at the knees by the tragedy that was 4E! (Which btw, was exactly what the beta testers who scuttled the first DH2 beta were concerned with!). Wizards bad decisions in 4e cost them a large share of market! Only time will tell if D&D 5E can get some of it back. One thing is certain though: WFRP will not be competing!

The rules failed at the fundamental level of actually evoking the setting an theme of the game.

I disagree on a fundamental level. Dark Heresy has always been essentially Cthulhu in space. It plays like that. It has involved combat, and an involved sanity system that makes the characters eventually unplayable which is a core theme of the Warhammer universe as a whole.

I really hate what they did to the Warhammer Fantasy system as a whole. The special dice and cards...cards, don't get me started on cards.

Agreed. There is one instance where you get a disease and it takes up on of your skill slots(?) How does that even work? just becuz i got the red pox doesn't mean i don't know how to wield a two handed sword anymore! ugh...

Actually, it took up your a talent slot, not a skill. So being diseased would cause you to lose how many special abilities you can use at once. Makes sense to me. Don't make **** up.

I personally am looking forward to getting DH2. I agree with H.B.M.C. that the OW system works well so why wouldn't you use it as a mechanical basis for another game in the same universe?

Why create new game mechanics at all then? Why not just use d100 for everything?

As to those who perpetually insist that WFRP 3.0 was sooo great, Please explain the following:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=4983

Here's your answer:

With the release of the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay Third Edition core set in 2009

5 years is a decent run, and new games sell better than add-ons for old ones. Call it a business decision.

Also I didn't see anywhere anyone claiming WHFRP3 was great. Maybe you could point out those posts?

If the game had that much of a following it would have continued to thrive! D&D 2nd ed. did for almost 20 yrs! D&D 3rd (And 3.5) was cut off at the knees by the tragedy that was 4E! (Which btw, was exactly what the beta testers who scuttled the first DH2 beta were concerned with!). Wizards bad decisions in 4e cost them a large share of market! Only time will tell if D&D 5E can get some of it back. One thing is certain though: WFRP will not be competing!

Wizards' biggest problem was that they published D&D under a license that allowed another company to reprint verbatim it and sell it to their customers who were happy playing their old game and didn't want to play the new one. It was a sound business decision to move away from that.

And cut off at the knees? Look how much crap there is out there for 3.5 . How much more could there have been?

I personally am looking forward to getting DH2. I agree with H.B.M.C. that the OW system works well so why wouldn't you use it as a mechanical basis for another game in the same universe?

As to those who perpetually insist that WFRP 3.0 was sooo great, Please explain the following:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=4983

If the game had that much of a following it would have continued to thrive! D&D 2nd ed. did for almost 20 yrs! D&D 3rd (And 3.5) was cut off at the knees by the tragedy that was 4E! (Which btw, was exactly what the beta testers who scuttled the first DH2 beta were concerned with!). Wizards bad decisions in 4e cost them a large share of market! Only time will tell if D&D 5E can get some of it back. One thing is certain though: WFRP will not be competing!

Also, you thinking that fourth edition cut third edition off at the knees is a laughable and childish understanding of the business of RPGs and the implication that 4E was an insidious force as opposed to being another system revision.

Also please explain how fourth edition was such a bad decision for wizards when the D&D insider service still makes them 6 million annually (assuming everyone has the cheapest subscription) which is more than half of pathfinders 11 million. That's not even counting book sales which were consistently outselling pathfinder while new books were being released and didn't start going downhill until Essentials was released, which was designed by Mike Mearls. Wizards worst decision was, as CPS said, the OGL. Fourth had nothing to do with that.

I'll be the first to say that wfrp 3 had flaws, but the vitriol people have for any rpg systems that try something new is baffling. Who knew that nerds would be Luddites when it comes to game design.

I'll be the first to say that wfrp 3 had flaws, but the vitriol people have for any rpg systems that try something new is baffling. Who knew that nerds would be Luddites when it comes to game design.

If you think this is funny you should go dig up old posts on usenet when 3rd edition D&D was just coming out. People who liked 2nd were saying the exact same things about 3rd that people today who like 3rd say about 4th. Seriously, it's uncanny.

Who knew that nerds would be Luddites when it comes to game design.

I in no way see the comparison between life saving machinery and rpg mechanics that have the capability of ostracizing people on the concept of not wanting or possibly losing special dice or cards. I'm not playing a board game after all which FFG does very well from what I hear.

Actually, it took up your a talent slot, not a skill. So being diseased would cause you to lose how many special abilities you can use at once. Makes sense to me. Don't make **** up.

He/she put a question there for a reason, he/she obviously didn't remember. Don't be unecessarily agressive when he/she was at least covering his/her bases.

The rules failed at the fundamental level of actually evoking the setting an theme of the game.

I disagree on a fundamental level. Dark Heresy has always been essentially Cthulhu in space. It plays like that. It has involved combat, and an involved sanity system that makes the characters eventually unplayable which is a core theme of the Warhammer universe as a whole.

I really hate what they did to the Warhammer Fantasy system as a whole. The special dice and cards...cards, don't get me started on cards.

The combat is a convoluted mess about stacking modifiers with no concern for actual tactics. The actually thematic wound tables are difficult to actually see in play due to the wound system, except for being inflicted on players. The level of randomness in the system makes it hard to have any kind of consistency. The insanity and corruption systems are, as I said, obfuscated behind a bunch of superfluous rules and aren't actually designed with playability in mind. The systems don't fit together into a cohesive or consistent game. Rather than try to use the second edition as a chance to overhaul things and actually make them fit together, FFG just went the path of least resistance and patched up a system based on design ideas that are decades out of date.

I in no way see the comparison between life saving machinery and rpg mechanics that have the capability of ostracizing people on the concept of not wanting or possibly losing special dice or cards. I'm not playing a board game after all which FFG does very well from what I hear.

Are you familiar with the definition of the words 'Luddite' and 'ostracize'? You probably meant 'alienate' when you wrote ostracize - game mechanics are not capable of excluding one from a group or society.

Luddite just means an opponent of technological change or new technology. Game systems DO fall into that. And that's how a lot of people come off when talking bad about games.

Must we really go into the edition wars? D100 is solid and popular system and Only War (and Cakebread & Waltons Renaissance Deluxe to be fair) are its finest refinements. It is not so new and shiny as FFG SWRPG or, what should I know, Fate, but it serves its purpose.

Hence why I am patching up Beta #1. ;-)

Actually, it took up your a talent slot, not a skill. So being diseased would cause you to lose how many special abilities you can use at once. Makes sense to me. Don't make **** up.

He/she put a question there for a reason, he/she obviously didn't remember. Don't be unecessarily agressive when he/she was at least covering his/her bases.

They put a question as to how te mechanic works and then posited a ludicrous situation. That's a classic argument fallacy of stating something untrue just to put it in people's heads. Here's another example.

That poster is a liar (?). That poster is too dumb to argue about RPGs! What's up with that?

Does the question mark excuse me making things up about something I don't know about?

Must we really go into the edition wars? D100 is solid and popular system and Only War (and Cakebread & Waltons Renaissance Deluxe to be fair) are its finest refinements. It is not so new and shiny as FFG SWRPG or, what should I know, Fate, but it serves its purpose.

This isn't exactly something that speaks well of a brand new product. Damning with faint praise... No wonder FFG didn't really mention DH2 at gencon.

Must we really go into the edition wars? D100 is solid and popular system and Only War (and Cakebread & Waltons Renaissance Deluxe to be fair) are its finest refinements. It is not so new and shiny as FFG SWRPG or, what should I know, Fate, but it serves its purpose.

It's less edition warring for me and more about questioning why people dislike mechanics and then dismissing false arguments in order to get an honest answer.

Must we really go into the edition wars? D100 is solid and popular system and Only War (and Cakebread & Waltons Renaissance Deluxe to be fair) are its finest refinements. It is not so new and shiny as FFG SWRPG or, what should I know, Fate, but it serves its purpose.

It's less edition warring for me and more about questioning why people dislike mechanics and then dismissing false arguments in order to get an honest answer.

Nimsim, I don't know where you're from, but around here correcting people's incorrect statements about editions deemed anathema is considered edition warring. Don't go trying to correct people's made-up bull or addressing their specious arguments in an ill-conceived attempt at intellectual honesty. I'll PM you a list of approved games and editions so this doesn't happen again.

Also, making a character unplayable is a terrible way of making a GAME fit a theme. Giving characters fatal flaws but still being playable makes for a much better game. Seriously, unless the 40k RPGs are meant to be a philosophical commentary on te futility of existence, they should focus on having the game be playable to the players and on mechanics that make play more interesting, not ones that just stop play completely or make it or more difficult to play.

Must we really go into the edition wars? D100 is solid and popular system and Only War (and Cakebread & Waltons Renaissance Deluxe to be fair) are its finest refinements. It is not so new and shiny as FFG SWRPG or, what should I know, Fate, but it serves its purpose.

It's less edition warring for me and more about questioning why people dislike mechanics and then dismissing false arguments in order to get an honest answer.

Nimsim, I don't know where you're from, but around here correcting people's incorrect statements about editions deemed anathema is considered edition warring. Don't go trying to correct people's made-up bull or addressing their specious arguments in an ill-conceived attempt at intellectual honesty. I'll PM you a list of approved games and editions so this doesn't happen again.

Must we really go into the edition wars? D100 is solid and popular system and Only War (and Cakebread & Waltons Renaissance Deluxe to be fair) are its finest refinements. It is not so new and shiny as FFG SWRPG or, what should I know, Fate, but it serves its purpose.

This isn't exactly something that speaks well of a brand new product. Damning with faint praise... No wonder FFG didn't really mention DH2 at gencon.

I think he just doesn't want to fuel a heated discussion about why supposedly color red is better than green, so he stays modest in his comments? And I think he's right.

Must we really go into the edition wars? D100 is solid and popular system and Only War (and Cakebread & Waltons Renaissance Deluxe to be fair) are its finest refinements. It is not so new and shiny as FFG SWRPG or, what should I know, Fate, but it serves its purpose.

It's less edition warring for me and more about questioning why people dislike mechanics and then dismissing false arguments in order to get an honest answer.

Nimsim, I don't know where you're from, but around here correcting people's incorrect statements about editions deemed anathema is considered edition warring. Don't go trying to correct people's made-up bull or addressing their specious arguments in an ill-conceived attempt at intellectual honesty. I'll PM you a list of approved games and editions so this doesn't happen again.

I gazed up at the enormous character sheet. 4d10 years it had taken me to learn what kind of hit die was hidden beneath the dark multiclass. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving hair color table! Two hand painted miniatures trickled down the sides of my hands. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. I had won the victory over myself. I loved THACO.

I just wanted you to know that I noted and appreciated the use of a quote from 1984 to praise game mechanics from 1984. Bravo.

I did mean alienate, but Luddite is for a particular example. The actual group of people in the 19th century who opposed new technology in their particuar industries towards the beginning of the industrial revolution?

Game mechanics don't save lives, there's no reason to get in this much a huff over it.

Nim it certainly doesn't give you that, but he/she was close. It doesn't give you the permission to insult people. I can also see where you're coming from on not liking the system, but Beta 1 wasn't much better in terms on nonconvoluted anything. The 41st millenium is generally considered a philisophical point on futility to a lot of people. Humanity is fighting a losing battle slowly bleeding to death, the point is surviving just a little longer no matter the cost.

Luddites are heroes.

Luddites are heroes.

You...you so and so. Here have one of my very few likes.

D100 + several modifiers is peace.

Non-combat mechanics is slavery.

The same system from my childhood is strength.

If you want a picture of the grim dark future, imagine a inclement weather modifier table stamping on a human face—for ever.

Freedom is the freedom to say that forty ballistic skill plus ten for close range plus ten for single shot plus 10 for an aim half action plus 10 for red dot laser sight attachment minus ten for being behind cover minus ten for having one fatigue is simple and fast. If that is granted, all else follows.

Game Balance: Does Fun exist?

Grognard: Of course it exists.

Game Balance: Does it exist like you or me?

Grognard: You do not exist.