You know... I have been a major supporter of Huge ships in glorious Epic from the start.

Now that FFG have shown us their (our) all mighty Armada... Uh-Oh's ... we might be in for some frownies.

!!!

I still think FFG will make some Imperial Huge ships... because... come on guys! Rebel ONLY Huge ships for Epic... Hels-Nah!

I think that most of these beautiful Huge Models we have talked about are not likely to be made for Epic... now.

The good news: I am certain that we will get them all in STAR WARS Armada.

FFG made that pretty 12' Tantive for Epic after all, and for me at least, that just confirms that Armada will have a few absolutely gigantic ships, done as awesome foot long'ish models too!

I can dig it.

You have to remember X-Wing is a game about Starfighters, while armada is a game about capital ships.

FFG never intended for Armada to replace Huge X-wing ships because you're not supposed to be dueling with X-Wing huge ships in the first place.

X-Wing Huge ships are there as, essentially, fancy background scenery in your awesome 300 point epic matches. They help your squadrons but don't expect the spotlight to fall on the CR-90 as it solos an entire squadron. It will die far too quickly.

Meanwhile in Epic they're given the place they are due, as light? ships trying to flank and sting some Star Destroyers. They aren't sceneary, the spotlight is on them.

Where you are correct in your title though is that Armada is probably easier to bring to the table and actually play a game with than an Epic match in X-Wing. The corvette's been out for over a month now and I haven't seen a single epic match. Just scenarios... that I ran no-less!

I mentioned this in a different thread, but I'll say it here too.

I'm guesstimating the VSD to be about 5-6 inches long. That means the ISD's need to be 9-11 inches long to look correct, IMO anyway.

That means a SSD is just not going to happen for the same reason a ISD wasn't going to happen in X-Wing. It's just too freaking big.

A ISD is 1600m, a SSD is 19kilometers. That means a SSD is nearly 12 times the size of a ISD. In scale, to a 10 inch ISD, you would have a 9 foot 11 inch long SSD.

Even if you cut the scale in half, you'd still have 5 foot long SSD, which would cost around $400+ The absolute smallest you could make a SSD and still have it look even remotely correct on the table would be about 3 feet long, at which point you're still looking at over $250 for the model, which is wayyyy out of my price range for a single model.

you're still looking at over $250 for the model, which is wayyyy out of my price range for a single model.

VanorDM ... suck it up and get a 2nd, 3rd, and 4th job. At least long enough to pay for the SSD we all want.

You gots to make and spendz dem mannies ...

They don't seem to be making much effort to be scale-consistent though. The CR-90 is too big. So I could see the ISD being only 8" and if they really wanted to produce an SSD it would only have to be 15" or so.

I think it's pretty evident from the scaling of the core starter ships that FFG will not be obsessive about adhering to scale.

If the Victory is a medium weight ship, the Imperial will be a large ship, and the Executor (IF its considered) will be a huge ship, occupying the same footprint that the CR-90 does. It will all be to relative scale for the sake of having these ships in the game.

Is it disappointing? A little. But I also don't want to have a magnifying glass to see my Corellian Corvettes (or inadvertently break them when I'm trying to move the model). I'm more interested in having these playing pieces on the board.

Which yeah I suppose you could use as an argument for a huge ISD in X-Wing, but the difference there is that ISDs are a in a whole other league than Corvettes. A lancer should suffice for the needs of X-Wing, a Star Destroyer is too much.

you're still looking at over $250 for the model, which is wayyyy out of my price range for a single model.

VanorDM ... suck it up and get a 2nd, 3rd, and 4th job. At least long enough to pay for the SSD we all want.

You gots to make and spendz dem mannies ...

You are not obligated to buy these starships. You never are.

Just as you are not obligated to buy Eight TIE fighters to be competitive. Chewie and a couple of fighters can destroy such lists, and for only part of the cost invested.

So I could see the ISD being only 8" and if they really wanted to produce an SSD it would only have to be 15" or so.

A 8" ISD and I'll likely get out of the game. A 15" SSD on the other hand is completely laughable. It would look so wrong on the board.

nd the Executor (IF its considered) will be a huge ship, occupying the same footprint that the CR-90 does.

Again a 1-1.5 foot long SSD is just not going to look correct on the table, not next to a ISD... Unless FFG completely destroys any sense of scale with those.

You are not obligated to buy these starships. You never are.

I'm well aware of that. In fact if they don't make ISD's at least in the 9-10 inch size, I won't buy any. I can accept some sliding of the scale, like the CR-90. Which I wish was a bit smaller, but I can accept it at the current size.

But a 8 inch ISD next to a 5 inch VSD... Just won't look right IMO, and as such I don't plan on having it seen on my table. That of course means a 15 inch SSD is completely out of the question.

Now if FFG wants to make a 2.5 to 3 foot SSD, and people are willing to spend $250 or so bucks on it, I say go for it. But either way I don't see myself buying such a thing.

They don't seem to be making much effort to be scale-consistent though. The CR-90 is too big. So I could see the ISD being only 8" and if they really wanted to produce an SSD it would only have to be 15" or so.

I am feeling that this may be the case too.

I tend to agree with VandorDM on this one. I could go over the arguments why mechanically and scale wise it wouldn't fit, but you all know those arguments. That isn't what the question is, the question is: is FFG willing to ignore gross inconsistencies in the fluff to give their customers what they want. We're not talking about small fudges in scale here like they seem to be doing with this system, and like they did with Huge ships in X-Wing. We are talking a change of an order of magnitude, the same as we would have needed for an ISD in X-Wing. Certainly many companies have done that with the Star Wars license in the past, because they knew people wanted X-Wings, ISDs, and SSDs, so they shoved them all into the same game.

I simply don't believe FFG is willing to do that. Let's look at their history of releases.

FFG appears to be strongly dedicated to maintaining consistency, both in the rules and with the fluff. That doesn't mean 100% accurate scale and rules, but consistent rules and a consistent feel.

They have been CONSISTENT at this too, for several years now. People wanted Space Marines in their 40k games, but they didn't give in. Can you imagine that? Two 40k RPGs with NO Space Marines!? That was unthinkable. They waited until they could release a game that did them justice. Same thing with the ISD in X-Wing. People have been screaming for it for a couple of years now, but they resisted until they could put them in a game that did them justice. And no Jedi in Edge of the Empire OR Age of the Rebellion? When everyone knows Star Wars is all about Jedi (except me, but that's neither here nor there).

I really don't think they are going to cave at this point, guys. Respecting the fluff of the source material is an integral part of their company and design culture. It's one of their defining features.

If they put an SSD in this game it could not be an SSD. It would be something called an SSD, that shared the same silhouette and general look of an SSD, but was not, in fact, an SSD at all. And that isn't necessarily a bad thing (even if I don't personally like it). Many games have done that.

But it obviously isn't how FFG does things. They have created a reputation (and cashed in on said reputation) for consistency and accuracy. They've built it up over years of work. I just don't see them throwing it out at this point. An SSD is no bigger a temptation than the ISD was for X-Wing, the Jedi class was for EotE, or Space Marines were for Inquisitor and Rogue Trader.

It is part of what defines them as a company, and part of what I love about them.

They don't seem to be making much effort to be scale-consistent though. The CR-90 is too big. So I could see the ISD being only 8" and if they really wanted to produce an SSD it would only have to be 15" or so.

I am feeling that this may be the case too.

I'm not disagreeing with you (in this post) but I would like to note that you can be perfectly "scale consistent" with a sliding scale, which this current set of miniatures is, and I suspect they will continue to be.

That isn't the same thing as throwing scale out the window, which seems to be what you are suggesting they will do (and which I doubt they will due for the reasons I listed above).

Of course, you COULD technically have a consistent logarithmic scale, in which case you could fit the SSD in. Heck, once you are using a sliding logarithmic scale you could put a Death Star in the game. I kind of doubt they will be using a scale like that though.

I agree that FFG is the best game company now. and I like that!

They don't seem to be making much effort to be scale-consistent though. The CR-90 is too big. So I could see the ISD being only 8" and if they really wanted to produce an SSD it would only have to be 15" or so.

I am feeling that this may be the case too.

I'm not disagreeing with you (in this post) but I would like to note that you can be perfectly "scale consistent" with a sliding scale, which this current set of miniatures is, and I suspect they will continue to be.

That isn't the same thing as throwing scale out the window, which seems to be what you are suggesting they will do (and which I doubt they will due for the reasons I listed above).

Of course, you COULD technically have a consistent logarithmic scale, in which case you could fit the SSD in. Heck, once you are using a sliding logarithmic scale you could put a Death Star in the game. I kind of doubt they will be using a scale like that though.

We are not sure just how big the VSD is yet. My guess by comparing the dice is about five inches long. I think if that is the case then a ten'ish inch ISD will be very nice. I reckon we are going to have to wait and see.

I agree that FFG is going to do all of this toy-stuff very well indeed, no matter how they move forward with the expansions.

I wouldn't begrudge an 8" Star Destroyer, because it would be cheaper than a 10" one and easier to store.

I think as long as the stats fall where we expect these craft to do so, scale can fall by the wayside. Again, FFG doesn't seem to wish to be exact with respect to the models next to each other. I'm fine with this, as long as the scale discrepancies are not as drastic as Attack Wing for example. I don't feel they would be.

Personally I think that since they seem to be using a sliding scale an 8" ISD is more likely than a 10" one.

Personally I don't mind a sliding scale as long as they are consistent. It's going to be annoying if it's random though.

I do not think we are going to go anywhere near STAW with the scale issues.

Personally I think that since they seem to be using a sliding scale an 8" ISD is more likely than a 10" one.

A 8" one would have the advantage of being cheaper. Somewhere in the $50 range I'd guess. The Transport is 9" and that's $60, the VR-49 is like 5.5" or so and that's $40.

I'd actually consider buying 2 ISD's at that price. So for that reason alone I could see them doing that. But 8" is the smallest ISD that I'd buy.

It is part of what defines them as a company, and part of what I love about them.

I agree, that's why I never expected to see a ISD in X-Wing. It's just not a matter of blindly sticking to scale. It's a question of simple appearance, a 16-20" ISD just would never look right on the X-Wing table. Likewise a 16-20" SSD won't look right on a Armada table.

I honestly believe FFG would rather produce more models that look correct then ones that don't. It's not like they're losing money by not making a ISD for X-Wing or a SSD for Armada. They can make just as much if not more by making more suitable models.

We are not sure just how big the VSD is yet. My guess by comparing the dice is about five inches long.

I compared it to the cards, but yeah we don't know how big it is. But I'd be shocked if it was much smaller then 5 inches, and a bit surprised if it was bigger then 6.

You know if they do price an ISD at $40... well now that that is grounds for getting three of them!

IMO it is mandatory to get at least two!

Something this community fails to see and understand is that this is a game of capital ship combat with the engagements happening over vast distances. The mechanics of the game reflect that and the models themselves are only there to give the player the representation of what they are playing. Just like Battlefleet and Firestorm, these ships and fighters are only representations of vessels engaging each other in the vastness of space.The players should be happy that the VSD is as large as it is and not begrudge FFG if they were not to make a ISD that was exactly to scale. The desire for such is inane and would not have a good impact on the overall purpose/play of Armada. There is obviously a distinction between different ship weightclasses as shown by the variance in base size. All this talk of "there won't be a SSD because it will be so far out of scale" is preposterous. FFG would not avoid the chance to release such an awesome kit just because it wasn't going to fit on a three meter table. They'll make the kit, but it won't be represented by a vessel any longer than the Tantive. To do otherwise would be cost prohibitive and gameplay stupid. The same goes for the ISD. It might be bigger, but if it is just a representation of the vessel (which is what it will be since these ships are not to scale) then it will probably be similar with a different profile.

Even if you cut the scale in half, you'd still have 5 foot long SSD, which would cost around $400+ The absolute smallest you could make a SSD and still have it look even remotely correct on the table would be about 3 feet long, at which point you're still looking at over $250 for the model, which is wayyyy out of my price range for a single model.

Some of us have already spent this kind of money on a "model" SSD: http://brickset.com/sets/10221-1/Super-Star-Destroyer

The players should be happy that the VSD is as large as it is and not begrudge FFG if they were not to make a ISD that was exactly to scale.

I see few people who are really upset that the CR-90, Neb B and VSD are not exactly to scale. We might like it if it were closer but most of us will still buy the game.

All this talk of "there won't be a SSD because it will be so far out of scale" is preposterous.

That's not even remotely true. A 15 inch long SSD will look stupid on the table, when sitting next to a 8-9 inch long ISD.

FFG would not avoid the chance to release such an awesome kit just because it wasn't going to fit on a three meter table.

Sure they will, for the same reason that they are presumably going to avoid releasing a ISD for X-Wing. Because it won't look right, and doing so will add nothing to the game, only detract from it.

No one is going to suffer if they don't release a SSD, the game won't be worse off without it. The game will however look worse if they include it.

Oh and also, the idea that the game isn't set to scale is incorrect, they do use a scale just it seems to be a sliding one. If they weren't using a scale, then the ships would be random sized, and start to look like Attack Wing.

VanorDM, you can't compare the two game systems, since they operate independently of each other. One is, for the most part, striving for a true to scale standard. The other, Armada, is clearly not bound by that architecture. A sliding scale can certainly include a foot long SSD without ruining the sliding scale, especially since there is no real formula that is being adhered to for the 'sliding scale,' as evidenced by the core set ships themselves.

Beyond that, X wing's gaming experience is completely separate from Armada. Just like the scale issues are different, X wing strives for dogfighting, getting on the tail of your enemy combat, while Armada is going to be ponderous ship-of-the-line battles. I would be wary of trying to box in Armada's future by comparing it to X wing. Apples and Oranges.

The Executor is a centerpiece Imperial vessel from the original films, it will definitely make an appearance in Armada. Captain Piett needs a place to get promoted anyway.

The other, Armada, is clearly not bound by that architecture.

Really? They said that somewhere? Or are you simply assuming?

Clearly they're using the same type of sliding scale in Armada that they did for Epic ships in X-Wing. But that means they do have a scale they're going to stick to, rather then simply throw the whole concept of scale out the window.

The Executor is a centerpiece Imperial vessel from the original films, it will definitely make an appearance in Armada.

Heard the same thing said about ISD's for X-Wing a number of times. Yet it's pretty clear that won't happen.

The scale issue is less of an issue here, but it is still an issue, FFG isn't going to produce ships for Armada like Wizkids does for STAW, and have no scale what so ever.

But as I said above, I could see a 2-3 foot SSD being acceptable to some, not that I'd pay for it myself. But it at least wouldn't look completely wrong on the table next to a 8-9" ISD.

But then you run into the other major issue with the SSD that you have with ISD's, the amount of firepower they have. If you look at the number of dice a VSD throws, compared to a CR-90... a ISD better throw a lot more. A SSD has whole orders of magnitude more firepower compared to a ISD then a VSD or even a ISD does compared to a CR-90.

But I'm done having this debate, the issue with a SSD in Armada is pretty much the same as a ISD in X-Wing.