Alternative to "Lightsaber" as a seperate skill.

By Ryoden, in Game Masters

Don't forget Cad Bane...for like 3 seconds...

I did say "proficiently," didn't I? :P

That was definitely Obi-Wan not skewering Cad immediately with the hopes of bringing him in to stand trial.

My group is taking a break from our Age of Rebellion game, and after a few sessions where we'll be play testing the adventures two of us are running at GenCon, I am planning to start a Force & Destiny campaign.

This thread was very helpful to me in deciding on how to handle lightsabers in my campaign. I appreciate the game balance of a separate skill, similar to the exotic weapon proficiency from d20, but felt that it was too limiting to not allow melee skill to be used at all. My first instinct was to upgrade difficulty for using melee instead of lightsaber skill, but there's no precedent for doing that. Plus, with destiny points and the Adversary talent, there are plenty of opportunities to upgrade the skill check difficulty, and when a lightsaber is involved, the result of a Despair is pretty obvious, though not mandatory. On the other hand, adding a setback didn't seem to adequately reflect the danger of using a lightsaber without proper technique. I decided to borrow one of the game mechanics of the Inferior weapon quality, although, I suppose it's the user's technique that's inferior, rather than the weapon. Technically, all I've done is add a small descriptor to the weapon, and it allows someone with melee training to use a lightsaber, but, as stated above, not necessarily proficiently or to maximum effect.

Dangerous (Melee) : While it basically functions as a melee weapon, a lightsaber requires specific technique to use safely. A lightsaber generates 1 automatic Threat on melee combat checks to use it.

Note: A skilled melee combatant will usually generate enough Advantage to counter the Threat generated in each roll. But having automatic threat will always cancel one Advantage, if rolled, or add to the total Threat of a roll.

This would be the only thing I would change. The rest remains RAW. Lightsaber would remain a separate skill, and all talents that specify the Lightsaber skill can only be used with that skill.

Perhaps I am sabering a dead tauntaun with this post (and it's not even cold out). I just felt like sharing what will probably be the house rule when I do start up.

6 dice brawn are better than 3 yellow dice thanks to brawn 3 and lightsaber 3, just saying, Skills are supe helpful, but decent characteristics get you a long way. If you are a martial artists you usually have that brawn value up as well.

AoR and EotE even allow lightsabers to be used with brawn or agility, something I personally would kept when using the thing without training.

When using Lightsabers without training, I would be inclined to upgrade all the purple dice to red, just because it can be so dangerous to use those things if you don’t know what you’re doing.

When using Lightsabers without training, I would be inclined to upgrade all the purple dice to red, just because it can be so dangerous to use those things if you don’t know what you’re doing.

More so than using a missile tube? More so than using an electrostaff? More so than using a beam drill (as a weapon)?

When using Lightsabers without training, I would be inclined to upgrade all the purple dice to red, just because it can be so dangerous to use those things if you don’t know what you’re doing.

More so than using a missile tube?

Yup. The balance on a missile tube is pretty much entirely what you would expect by looking at it. With a lightsaber, the blade has no mass, and with regards to a melee weapon that is mostly definitely weird — and potentially seriously dangerous to anyone who hasn’t been trained in how to use it.

More so than using an electrostaff?

Yup. See above regarding balance. But I might automatically throw in at least one upgrade for a person untrained in how to use an electrostaff, because it can also be dangerous to those who are not trained in how to use it, just not nearly as dangerous as a lightsaber.

More so than using a beam drill (as a weapon)?

Yup. See above for electrostaff.

I guess I just don't accept the belief that a lightsaber is inherently more difficult to wield than any other exotic weapon. I've never see any evidence to support that unskilled users of a light saber are a threat to themselves. I come from WEG days, and while I still have a fondness for that system, the suicide-by-lightsaber effect that made learning the skill in-game almost impossible is something I don't miss.

Edited by HappyDaze

I guess I just don't accept the belief that a lightsaber is inherently more difficult to wield than any other exotic weapon. I've never see any evidence to support that unskilled users of a light saber are a threat to themselves. I come from WEG days, and while I still have a fondness for that system, the suicide-by-lightsaber effect that made learning the skill in-game almost impossible is something I don't miss.

I have to agree with this, and I am all for it not to let melee used with lightsabers, but adding red dice sounds way over the top, especially as raw is very friendly about that skill. As mentioned AoR and EotE even allow you to pick brawn or agility.

I guess I just don't accept the belief that a lightsaber is inherently more difficult to wield than any other exotic weapon. I've never see any evidence to support that unskilled users of a light saber are a threat to themselves. I come from WEG days, and while I still have a fondness for that system, the suicide-by-lightsaber effect that made learning the skill in-game almost impossible is something I don't miss.

Out of combat, when they can take time to be careful, I most likely wouldn’t require them to roll and therefore there wouldn’t be any upgrades. IMO, Han cutting open the Taunton on Hoth is a perfect example of this.

But if you’re going to use that thing in combat, and you’re hoping to have all your limbs still attached when you’re done, then you really, really want to have at least some training in how to use that weapon.

IMO, the fact that Finn got away with using a lightsaber in combat against Kylo and survived with all his limbs intact — that, for me, shows just how lucky he is, and naturally gifted.

Untrained, but lucky and gifted.

But as I say, this is just how I’d be inclined to run things in my game. You should run things in your game the way you think is best, and if you disagree with me then that’s fine and you should continue to run things the way you think is best.

But so long as we’re all just discussing how we would run things in our own respective games, now you know what my method would likely be.

Edited by bradknowles

Wait...

Does this mean we aren't going to have a flame war over the interpretation of how to use a lightsaber? What kind of fans are we? ;)

In all seriousness, I'm really glad that these forums are fairly civil.

I did consider upgrading the difficulty. In fact, I really, really wanted to upgrade the difficulty.

However, as dangerous as a lightsaber can be, it still is not a situation for an upgrade. P. 19 Force & Destiny, Challenge dice represent "particularly daunting challenges posed by trained, elite, or prepared opponents." They can also be added by using a Destiny Point. The only exception to this that I found was the rule on ranged attacks at engaged targets (F&D: p217) I suppose a similar ruling could be made for using a lightsaber when you have allies at engaged range to you. (I am personally not taking it that far)

I get that the blade being weightless can throw the balance and awareness of the weapon, but the blade is a fixed length and configuration. I'd think you have more chance of hurting yourself with a whip than with a lightsaber. (no penalties for untrained use are mentioned on the Neuronic Whip: Lords of Nal Hutta, p103-104) The reason I went with the Threat mechanic was that it seemed closest to what the issue was. In this case - weapon balance. An inferior sword, for example, could be causing Threat because the blade is weighted to far at the point, causing over-swings that might throw the fighter off balance or even (with additional threat) have the blade swing back into the user. The lightsaber blade having no weight at all is more of the opposite problem. It's more extreme, but still something that can be compensated for.

So, using melee skill to chop through minions with a lightsaber may have some risk (1 threat's worth). The risk increases when fighting someone who can misdirect, sidestep or otherwise cause you to miss and miss badly, which is represented by the upgrade from the Adversary talent.

Now, having said all of that, RAW also says that the Melee skill does not apply to lightsabers, so as a GM, if you want to upgrade all of the difficulty dice in exchange for allowing the melee skill to be used, that's your call. (I'd limit it to upgrade difficulty once, though)

Oh wait. If bradknowles meant that using melee skill gives you two upgrades on your difficulty. It is a weapon which is wastly different in handling, while at the same time the same principles of fencing apply to it. So using a skill which assumes a complete different balance of the blade, combined that even just touching gives you funny burns … yeah all for it.

But i you decide with using it just with your characteristics just like AoR and EotR suggest, I am all for allowing use agility or brawn without any upgrades.

You can juggle rocket launchers and unless you hit the button it's not a problem. Not sure I'd wave around a lightsaber personally. It would be fun to play with, but in combat I'm not sure I'd want to be carrying something around that if I bump myself with it my new name is 'lefty'.