Alternative to "Lightsaber" as a seperate skill.

By Ryoden, in Game Masters

Hey everyone.

One of my players has expressed interest in becoming force sensitive and obtaining a lightsaber. Not a unique situation, I'm sure. Her character is already skilled with Melee. It is inconsistent to me that your skill with all the other melee weapons does not carry over to using the light saber. Clearly there is a difference to swinging a saber but does it really require a whole new skill, or does it require a sensitivity to the blade through the force?

A house rule I am considering is changing the use of a Lightsaber be covered by the Melee skill rather than it being it's own separate skill.

I am looking for ideas on how to do about this. My initial idea is to increase/upgrade the difficulty of the melee skill check a number of times. The number of times would go down the more force sensitive the character is .

Maybe upgrade the difficulty 4 times, less one time per force rating and one additional time if the saber was built by the user.

Any ideas?

EotE rules already state you can use Melee. I believe the Lightsaber skill will allow the character to pick Brawn or Agility as the base characteristic, which might make a difference in who uses it.

Edit: I do kind of like the upgrade idea if using the Melee skill. I wouldn't go more than 2 though, that's already a pretty good chance of Despair (almost 1:6)

Edited by whafrog

EotE rules already state you can use Melee. I believe the Lightsaber skill will allow the character to pick Brawn or Agility as the base characteristic, which might make a difference in who uses it.

Is that true? I thought they were pretty specific about the Lightsaber skill not being in CRB.

I wouldn't use the melee skill; a Marauder will already crush stuff with a +3 axe. Giving him a lightsaber with BREACH is going to make it nigh impossible to stop him. So what if there's a couple red dice, with him using Melee, you'll have a player rolling 5 yellow dice because he can train in Melee. The devs clearly wanted anyone using a Lightsaber in EotE to be untrainined.

Just my opinion though.

Atribute (Brawn or Agility) and Force Rating?

So, an Agility 3, FR 2 would be 2 Y 1 G

Weird but cool XD

I think I'll just wait 72 hours and use the new rules....

EotE rules already state you can use Melee. I believe the Lightsaber skill will allow the character to pick Brawn or Agility as the base characteristic, which might make a difference in who uses it.

Edit: I do kind of like the upgrade idea if using the Melee skill. I wouldn't go more than 2 though, that's already a pretty good chance of Despair (almost 1:6)

Actually, the EotE rules definitely says that the Lightsaber doesn't use the Melee skill. It's a "melee" weapon in that you use it at when Engaged, but it does not use the "Melee" skill . You only roll your Brawn or Agility dice when making a check. The weapon description calls out that the Lightsaber skill is not included in the game, but that GMs can elect to use it as a custom skill for a player if they desire.

@Ryoden, I would keep lightsabers RAW for now. Some have suggested upgrading the Difficulty once or twice, but 4 times is egregious :) Plus that, you don't have to be Force Sensitive to wield a lightsaber (this is evidenced by Greivous and Pre Vizla, among other less notables) so I would stay away from making it a Force-related thing. Plus that, I don't see a need for a lightsaber to be more mechanically balanced than it already is.

With FaD on the horizon, I would expect more comprehensive ruleset to be in the offing.

What will happen in 72 hours? O.o

Yeah, I think the idea is that the lightsabers in EotE and AoR are so nasty they didn't want a bunch of marauders grabbing that and going rancor-poo, so keeping it a non-skill balanced it out a bit. Though as others have said, in a couple of days Force and Destiny Beta comes out and all this will be clear.

What will happen in 72 hours? O.o

It's likely that FFG will release the Force & Destiny beta at Gencon. EotE and AoR betas were both released at the last two Gencons, so it's a safe bet this one will have F&D.

The problem you run into by treating the lightsaber like a melee weapon is you basically devalue the lightsaber. You turn a "how did they get THAT!" kind of weapon into "oh another wannabe with a sword".

EotE exists after episode 4. That means lightsabers are rare. Like more rare than a smile from Palpatine not involving someone's death. They cost a TON, they are incredibly rare and to top that off, to be genuinely useful with one, you need some specialized training. This turns a light-bright stick, into a weapon of integrity and power.

In practical perspective everything about a lightsaber is different. The weight is "wrong" for a real sword, and flies through the air like as if it is dancing. Think of lightsaber usage the different between sword fighting at a ren faire, and fencing. Lightsabers would be the fencing. It isn't the same skillset.

TL:DR, Don't make lightsabers into a "pretty stick" keep them something special.

Give it a couple of setback dice which can be negated if they become force sensitive.

I don't like the idea of Lightsaber being a separate skill from Melee but if it must be dependent on being force sensitive to wield it properly then that should be enough of a penalty.

72 hours?

Don't recall not noticing how the time flies this time last year!

Anybody else tried using Melee instead of the Lightsaber skill in this way?

You shouldn't use the Melee skill because the lightsaber has vastly different properties than a normal sword.

I did varsity fencing in college. For three months we had to condition ourselves without ever touching a weapon or doing any fencing-specific exercises. Then we started "novice," which was all about the basics of movement and form. That was another three months before we were allowed to touch a weapon; if we used anything besides empty air, we used bladeless hilts. Even when we got our weapons for the first time, we still didn't start fencing each other for another month while we re-learned all the basics, but this time with the weight of the sword in our hand.

All this as preparation to use a weapon that has no edge to it. A lightsaber, by contrast, is all edge. There is no part of the lightsaber that can't cut you, while on a fencing sabre there's no part that can. It's still dangerous, though, and I both cut others and was cut myself due to carelessness on the strip.

This is made more dangerous by the fact that the blade has no weight and can cut through anything but another lightsaber. In fencing, half of what you learn is how to parry and deal with your blade not going in the direction you want it to go. Characters can't practice that with a lightsaber unless they also have a second one, at which point you have two untrained people swinging incredibly deadly weapons at each other, presumably while on a spaceship surrounded by vacuum.

While I might let a character with a high Melee use a lightsaber with only, say, two upgraded Difficulty dice, if she was using it for anything besides cutting bread and toasting it at the same time, there would be a very real chance of her cutting off one of her own limbs, and a high probability of killing her friends as well as her enemies if they get too close.

If she becomes Force-sensitive and gets her hands on a lightsaber, part of her revelation should be that the normal rules for melee weapons don't apply to it. If she's that skilled with a vibrosword, she would realize pretty quickly that they're two different skills entirely, and her inner savant should insist that she learn how to use it properly.

Going to take a different tack.

In a game where all skills cost the same amount of XP, it's important to have equity of portfolio between skills in the context of what's important in the game. "Lightsaber" is so powerful, both in terms of story influence and the devastating power of the weapon it commands, as to deserve its own skill. Adding it to "melee" simply makes "melee" too good -- at that point, why not train melee? You can use vibrowhatevers in the meantime and, holy s--t, if you ever do get your hands on a saber, you can handle it like a pro just like no utter novice in SW ever has.

Also, I'm a big fan of upgrading the base difficulty of lightsaber attacks from 2 purps to 2 reds because so much can go wrong.

But I'm also good with waiting 48 hours...

The argument that lightsabers don't handle the way any other melee weapon does won't hold up when you consider that we have a beamdrill in Sons of Fortune that uses Melee. Lightsaber is a special snowflake because of its place in SW lore, not because of how it handles.

Edited by HappyDaze

The argument that lightsabers don't handle the way any other melee weapon does won't hold up when you consider that we have a beamdrill in Sons of Fortune that uses Melee. Lightsaber is a special snowflake because of its place in SW lore, not because of how it handles.

If you look at the picture of the Beam Drill on page 98, you'll see that the "beam" part is at the very tip, much like a normal drill bit would be on a normal drill. It's also wildly inaccurate (Inaccurate 2) and heavy (Cumbersome 4), being that it's a tool rather than something meant to be a weapon.

In constrast, the lightsaber has all of its mass in the hilt with a meter-long blade that has no mass yet is incredibly sharp, making it far more difficult than most categories of swords to wield, in which the weapon's mass is more evenly spread. Or in contrast to an axe, where most of the mass is in the head of the weapon to increase its chopping power. A trained user can overcome this (Grievous had no issues wielding four lightsabers at one time), but to go from the standard variety of melee weapons (where the mass is either spread out more or focused on the business end) to a weapon where the mass is centered entirely on the "safe" part isn't going to automatically translate, and thus the lightsaber getting it's own specific skill.

It's much the same in-game logic as why a PC that's got ranks in Ranged (Light) can't use that skill when attacking with a heavy blaster rifle, which uses Ranged (Heavy) for attack rolls.

Besides you can already use a skill unskilled in many case or at a reduced setting in that you can use skills with just the attribute dice.

The argument that lightsabers don't handle the way any other melee weapon does won't hold up when you consider that we have a beamdrill in Sons of Fortune that uses Melee. Lightsaber is a special snowflake because of its place in SW lore, not because of how it handles.

If you look at the picture of the Beam Drill on page 98, you'll see that the "beam" part is at the very tip, much like a normal drill bit would be on a normal drill. It's also wildly inaccurate (Inaccurate 2) and heavy (Cumbersome 4), being that it's a tool rather than something meant to be a weapon.

In constrast, the lightsaber has all of its mass in the hilt with a meter-long blade that has no mass yet is incredibly sharp, making it far more difficult than most categories of swords to wield, in which the weapon's mass is more evenly spread. Or in contrast to an axe, where most of the mass is in the head of the weapon to increase its chopping power. A trained user can overcome this (Grievous had no issues wielding four lightsabers at one time), but to go from the standard variety of melee weapons (where the mass is either spread out more or focused on the business end) to a weapon where the mass is centered entirely on the "safe" part isn't going to automatically translate, and thus the lightsaber getting it's own specific skill.

It's much the same in-game logic as why a PC that's got ranks in Ranged (Light) can't use that skill when attacking with a heavy blaster rifle, which uses Ranged (Heavy) for attack rolls.

I always personally thought waving around a flashlight that slices through tanks would be an unforgiving weapon to use in reality...

The argument that lightsabers don't handle the way any other melee weapon does won't hold up when you consider that we have a beamdrill in Sons of Fortune that uses Melee. Lightsaber is a special snowflake because of its place in SW lore, not because of how it handles.

If you look at the picture of the Beam Drill on page 98, you'll see that the "beam" part is at the very tip, much like a normal drill bit would be on a normal drill. It's also wildly inaccurate (Inaccurate 2) and heavy (Cumbersome 4), being that it's a tool rather than something meant to be a weapon.

In constrast, the lightsaber has all of its mass in the hilt with a meter-long blade that has no mass yet is incredibly sharp, making it far more difficult than most categories of swords to wield, in which the weapon's mass is more evenly spread. Or in contrast to an axe, where most of the mass is in the head of the weapon to increase its chopping power. A trained user can overcome this (Grievous had no issues wielding four lightsabers at one time), but to go from the standard variety of melee weapons (where the mass is either spread out more or focused on the business end) to a weapon where the mass is centered entirely on the "safe" part isn't going to automatically translate, and thus the lightsaber getting it's own specific skill.

It's much the same in-game logic as why a PC that's got ranks in Ranged (Light) can't use that skill when attacking with a heavy blaster rifle, which uses Ranged (Heavy) for attack rolls.

I always personally thought waving around a flashlight that slices through tanks would be an unforgiving weapon to use in reality...

Indeed, which is probably why they're not standard equipment for general infantry.

You shouldn't use the Melee skill because the lightsaber has vastly different properties than a normal sword.

I did varsity fencing in college...

While I think Lightsaber should be a different skill in this game, this argument doesn't really exemplify why. A fencing blade isn't a "normal sword"...what is "normal"? You use a scimitar differently from a broadsword differently from a katana differently from a foil. None of the principles translate. You can't/shouldn't parry with a broadsword, you'll probably shatter it...that is the shield's job. And when you throw in axes, truncheons, flails, etc. which are used entirely differently from "normal swords", the Melee skill is entirely too broad. It works fine in this game because of the genre, but wouldn't be as satisfying translated to a fantasy setting because specific weapon capabilities are a large part of that genre.

So Lorne nailed it:

In a game where all skills cost the same amount of XP, it's important to have equity of portfolio between skills in the context of what's important in the game.

There is no mechanic reason to separate the use of the lightsaber from other melee weapons (...provided of course that Force Sensitivity isn't a critical component of lightsaber use, an issue which isn't established or settled), the only reason is narrative.

Edited by whafrog

You can use vibrowhatevers in the meantime and, holy s--t, if you ever do get your hands on a saber, you can handle it like a pro just like no utter novice in SW ever has.

Savage Opress is a good counter-example [as well as an example of a terrible Star Wars name]. This dude grew up in a primitive environment and was used to fighting with a variety of simple melee weapons. But when given a lightsaber, he picked it up without any issues. Likewise, Obi-Wan fought with an electrostaff just fine [i can't state the exact episode for this example].

While it seems that most people don't want melee users, such as the overdone Wookie Marauder, using lightsabers, making it a different skill will have the same effect on Jedi. A master Jedi would be able to only use lightsabers well unless he spends XP buying up Melee just in case.

A lightsaber blade might be massless but it still has inertia and requires force to move around. About as much effort as it takes to move a wooden dowel covered in reflective tape. Similarly, it doesn't cut without resistance and requires the user to push the blade through it's target. So a lightsaber is more similar to a light weight sword than that sword is similar to a dagger, axe or spear.

The problem you run into by treating the lightsaber like a melee weapon is you basically devalue the lightsaber. You turn a "how did they get THAT!" kind of weapon into "oh another wannabe with a sword".

EotE exists after episode 4. That means lightsabers are rare. Like more rare than a smile from Palpatine not involving someone's death. They cost a TON, they are incredibly rare and to top that off, to be genuinely useful with one, you need some specialized training. This turns a light-bright stick, into a weapon of integrity and power.

In practical perspective everything about a lightsaber is different. The weight is "wrong" for a real sword, and flies through the air like as if it is dancing. Think of lightsaber usage the different between sword fighting at a ren faire, and fencing. Lightsabers would be the fencing. It isn't the same skillset.

TL:DR, Don't make lightsabers into a "pretty stick" keep them something special.

Well, while a lightsabre might be rare, nothing about using them is any different fundamentally from using a sword. Which is why the whole "you need to have special training" schtick a bit silly(as in it makes zero logical sense within the universe)

While there is a difference between fighting with broadswords and fencing, they are still fundamentally the same skill set. Especially when you've got abstraction to the point where fighting with a 2 meter long force pike and a 8 inch vibro-knife use the same skill set.

What makes a Lightsabre special isn't the skill to use it, its the actual item itself. Anybody with a modicum of sword training could use a Lightsabre to decent effect with a little practice, its getting the dang Lightsabre in the first place that is the real challenge.

Its not like if you gave a Ligthsabre to a Vibrosword master that he'd flail around like a braindamaged Gammorrean. He'd just need to adjust to the unique balance and feel of the lightsabre, no different than if he switched from a rapier to a broadsword.

While it seems that most people don't want melee users, such as the overdone Wookie Marauder, using lightsabers, making it a different skill will have the same effect on Jedi. A master Jedi would be able to only use lightsabers well unless he spends XP buying up Melee just in case.

Then he should spend the XP to buy Melee just in case. Me, I'd go with Brawl before that, but if someone wants to be master-of-all-hand-to-hand-combat, then buying three skills doesn't seem like an undue burden. After all, faces have to buy Coercion and Deception and Charm to become masters-of-persuasion.

Savage Opress is a good counter-example [as well as an example of a terrible Star Wars name]. This dude grew up in a primitive environment and was used to fighting with a variety of simple melee weapons. But when given a lightsaber, he picked it up without any issues.

He was pretty terrible though. Only his mass, brute strength, and hate pulled him through. A better example might be the witches that accompanied Ventress on her assassination attempt of Dooku. They were no match for him, but at least they made him work, something Savage never did.

Savage Opress is a good counter-example [as well as an example of a terrible Star Wars name]. This dude grew up in a primitive environment and was used to fighting with a variety of simple melee weapons. But when given a lightsaber, he picked it up without any issues.

He was pretty terrible though. Only his mass, brute strength, and hate pulled him through. A better example might be the witches that accompanied Ventress on her assassination attempt of Dooku. They were no match for him, but at least they made him work, something Savage never did.

Plus, Savage was Force sensitive. It's been implied that being able to tap into the Force goes a long way in using a lightsaber, since even a tiny bit of precognition will keep you from cutting off your own hand. Pre Vizsla and General Grievous are the only non-Force users who ever used a lightsaber with any proficiency, and in the latter's case he was mostly a robot.

Savage Opress is a good counter-example [as well as an example of a terrible Star Wars name]. This dude grew up in a primitive environment and was used to fighting with a variety of simple melee weapons. But when given a lightsaber, he picked it up without any issues.

He was pretty terrible though. Only his mass, brute strength, and hate pulled him through. A better example might be the witches that accompanied Ventress on her assassination attempt of Dooku. They were no match for him, but at least they made him work, something Savage never did.

Plus, Savage was Force sensitive. It's been implied that being able to tap into the Force goes a long way in using a lightsaber, since even a tiny bit of precognition will keep you from cutting off your own hand. Pre Vizsla and General Grievous are the only non-Force users who ever used a lightsaber with any proficiency, and in the latter's case he was mostly a robot.

Don't forget Cad Bane...for like 3 seconds...

:)