And the loss of the Executor simply is not the example of flaws being found and exploited. It's an example of unrealistic luck and outrageous stupidity joining together. That scene annoys me almost as much as the ewoks.

Why does everyone make such a big deal about Executor losing its bridge shields? Am I the only person who remembers that Ackbar ordered the Alliance fleet to concentrate its fire on the Executor? That means every Rebel warship and any Alliance fighters which didn't follow Lando into the Death Star II which could maneuver into position to fire on Executor were shooting at Executor. Under that kind of firepower even Executor's shields wouldn't have lasted long.

Your not the only one who remembers it. The loss of the shields is not the point of contention. The problem is that the Executor did not explode under the combined firepower of the Rebel fleet. It lost control after a comparatively miniscule, out of control, fighter rammed it in EXACTLY the right place to take out command center. Which, after we saw how big the tower front was when Luke and the gang flew past in that captured shuttle just seems a little improbable at the very least. Not to mention: why didn't a ship that big have at least one fully staffed auxilliary control room that immediately came online? These just seem like reasonable critiques to me.

True but less likely things then an out of control fighter crashing into a ship's bridge have happened in the history of warfare on Earth so I don't see why it happening in Star Wars is such a big deal.

As for auxiliary control its possible that Executor's auxiliary control had been knocked offline before the bridge got hit, or that the links between auxiliary control's helm station and the thrusters were damaged, or maybe that the news that the bridge being knocked out shocked the auxiliary crew enough that they froze for a split second which was long enough for them to pass the point of no return of the Death Star II's gravity well. Again unlikely but not to the point that the chance of that combination of events occurring would be unprecedented IMO.

And the loss of the Executor simply is not the example of flaws being found and exploited. It's an example of unrealistic luck and outrageous stupidity joining together. That scene annoys me almost as much as the ewoks.

Why does everyone make such a big deal about Executor losing its bridge shields? Am I the only person who remembers that Ackbar ordered the Alliance fleet to concentrate its fire on the Executor? That means every Rebel warship and any Alliance fighters which didn't follow Lando into the Death Star II which could maneuver into position to fire on Executor were shooting at Executor. Under that kind of firepower even Executor's shields wouldn't have lasted long.

Your not the only one who remembers it. The loss of the shields is not the point of contention. The problem is that the Executor did not explode under the combined firepower of the Rebel fleet. It lost control after a comparatively miniscule, out of control, fighter rammed it in EXACTLY the right place to take out command center. Which, after we saw how big the tower front was when Luke and the gang flew past in that captured shuttle just seems a little improbable at the very least. Not to mention: why didn't a ship that big have at least one fully staffed auxilliary control room that immediately came online? These just seem like reasonable critiques to me.

Given that suicide tactics were an actual thing in WWII, I'm not sure about this one's improbability. And even if the auxiliary bridge came online immediately after the bridge went kaput, that wouldn't have mattered. Because while the auxiliary bridge may have come online, the people who need to control said bridge would still need to get to their stations and put in all commands required.

They didn't even have enough time to do the first, much less the later.

The A-Wing smashing into the bridge of the Executor wasn't what killed it, it was a critical hit that managed to cause enough disruption in the ships system that it couldn't keep the pull from the DSII from pulling it in.

It was already struggling to remain in orbit around the thing, the A-Wing was just a lucky shot that at best saved the RA fleet a few shots.

The A-Wing smashing into the bridge of the Executor wasn't what killed it, it was a critical hit that managed to cause enough disruption in the ships system that it couldn't keep the pull from the DSII from pulling it in.

It was already struggling to remain in orbit around the thing, the A-Wing was just a lucky shot that at best saved the RA fleet a few shots.

Exactly but for some reason a lot of people seem to think both that Executor would have been fine if it wasn't for that hit, and that that hit was some kind of utterly unrealistic fluke

And the loss of the Executor simply is not the example of flaws being found and exploited. It's an example of unrealistic luck and outrageous stupidity joining together. That scene annoys me almost as much as the ewoks.

Why does everyone make such a big deal about Executor losing its bridge shields? Am I the only person who remembers that Ackbar ordered the Alliance fleet to concentrate its fire on the Executor? That means every Rebel warship and any Alliance fighters which didn't follow Lando into the Death Star II which could maneuver into position to fire on Executor were shooting at Executor. Under that kind of firepower even Executor's shields wouldn't have lasted long.

Your not the only one who remembers it. The loss of the shields is not the point of contention. The problem is that the Executor did not explode under the combined firepower of the Rebel fleet. It lost control after a comparatively miniscule, out of control, fighter rammed it in EXACTLY the right place to take out command center. Which, after we saw how big the tower front was when Luke and the gang flew past in that captured shuttle just seems a little improbable at the very least. Not to mention: why didn't a ship that big have at least one fully staffed auxilliary control room that immediately came online? These just seem like reasonable critiques to me.

Given that suicide tactics were an actual thing in WWII, I'm not sure about this one's improbability. And even if the auxiliary bridge came online immediately after the bridge went kaput, that wouldn't have mattered. Because while the auxiliary bridge may have come online, the people who need to control said bridge would still need to get to their stations and put in all commands required.

They didn't even have enough time to do the first, much less the later.

Under battle conditions people should not have had to get to thier stations. "Battle stations" by deffinition means people are at their posts, ready and doing thier job.

The A-Wing smashing into the bridge of the Executor wasn't what killed it, it was a critical hit that managed to cause enough disruption in the ships system that it couldn't keep the pull from the DSII from pulling it in.It was already struggling to remain in orbit around the thing, the A-Wing was just a lucky shot that at best saved the RA fleet a few shots.

Again, a fully staffed auxiliary control would have stopped this. And even if it couldn't, knocking out the bridge would only have knocked out the central command. NOT the overall system that kept the ship in orbit. Is anyone here familiar with real world warship design? Look at WWII battleships, the nearest parallel to ISDs and SSDs. Redundant systems and back ups are integral in the designs. For any realistically designed capital ship, they would also. For movie and story telling purposes, they were not in RoTJ, to get a more spectacular death for the Executor.

Again, a fully staffed auxiliary control would have stopped this.

No not really. Not if the ship had taken enough damage that either the aux control was knocked out, or had to reroute systems because of damage. It's completely possible and even likely that at the point they had to switch over a aux control room would of needed time to take control, even if it was fully staffed.

the nearest parallel to ISDs and SSDs. Redundant systems and back ups are integral in the designs.

And the ship had taken so much damage at that point that it is possible that many of those redundant systems were knocked out.

Exactly it takes time for those backups to kick in. Maybe only a split second but in this case whatever time it took for the backups to kick in was enough time to take Executor past the point of no return And it would probably take longer then a split second for the crew of auxiliary control to realize the bridge was gone.

Plus we have know idea what other damage Executor took before the bridge was hit. For all we know crew of auxiliary control was already dead. But rather then consider the possibility there was something preventing auxiliary control from reacting in time many people just assume that there was no auxiliary control.

Still, it was a good movie. Emphasis on movie.

Under battle conditions people should not have had to get to thier stations. "Battle stations" by deffinition means people are at their posts, ready and doing thier job.

The A-Wing smashing into the bridge of the Executor wasn't what killed it, it was a critical hit that managed to cause enough disruption in the ships system that it couldn't keep the pull from the DSII from pulling it in.It was already struggling to remain in orbit around the thing, the A-Wing was just a lucky shot that at best saved the RA fleet a few shots.

Again, a fully staffed auxiliary control would have stopped this. And even if it couldn't, knocking out the bridge would only have knocked out the central command. NOT the overall system that kept the ship in orbit. Is anyone here familiar with real world warship design? Look at WWII battleships, the nearest parallel to ISDs and SSDs. Redundant systems and back ups are integral in the designs. For any realistically designed capital ship, they would also. For movie and story telling purposes, they were not in RoTJ, to get a more spectacular death for the Executor.

I'm amazed at your faith in humanity, but the human component of a warship will always be its weakest link. It doesn't matter how fast the systems are, the humans controlling it still need time to react. And that time the Executor simply didn't have.

Again, a fully staffed auxiliary control would have stopped this.

No not really. Not if the ship had taken enough damage that either the aux control was knocked out, or had to reroute systems because of damage. It's completely possible and even likely that at the point they had to switch over a aux control room would of needed time to take control, even if it was fully staffed.

the nearest parallel to ISDs and SSDs. Redundant systems and back ups are integral in the designs.

And the ship had taken so much damage at that point that it is possible that many of those redundant systems were knocked out.

What evidence do we have it had taken so much damage? Where there explosions in the hull other than the loss of shields? How can we possibly know if auxiliary control was or was not damaged? Why can't it be ackowleged that warships are designed to take severe damage and survive, at least for a while? I dont see why so many are having such intense reactions to this and are willing to create scenarios to excuse such a poor few minutes of story time.

Under battle conditions people should not have had to get to thier stations. "Battle stations" by deffinition means people are at their posts, ready and doing thier job.

The A-Wing smashing into the bridge of the Executor wasn't what killed it, it was a critical hit that managed to cause enough disruption in the ships system that it couldn't keep the pull from the DSII from pulling it in.It was already struggling to remain in orbit around the thing, the A-Wing was just a lucky shot that at best saved the RA fleet a few shots.

Again, a fully staffed auxiliary control would have stopped this. And even if it couldn't, knocking out the bridge would only have knocked out the central command. NOT the overall system that kept the ship in orbit. Is anyone here familiar with real world warship design? Look at WWII battleships, the nearest parallel to ISDs and SSDs. Redundant systems and back ups are integral in the designs. For any realistically designed capital ship, they would also. For movie and story telling purposes, they were not in RoTJ, to get a more spectacular death for the Executor.

I'm amazed at your faith in humanity, but the human component of a warship will always be its weakest link. It doesn't matter how fast the systems are, the humans controlling it still need time to react. And that time the Executor simply didn't have.

I have very little faith in humanity. I do, however, have an understanding of the training and professionalism that goes into most armed forces. If the Empire was as professional, fearsome, and militaristic as they were made out to be, the personal flagship of Darth Vader would have had the best of the best of the best. Ozzel's execution demonstrates that lack of professionalism was not tolerated on the Executor. I just happen to think that the ship should have been much tougher to destroy. A crippled Executor destroyed in the explosion of DSII, I could have believed. This scenario just seems too simplistic. .

What evidence do we have it had taken so much damage? Where there explosions in the hull other than the loss of shields? How can we possibly know if auxiliary control was or was not damaged? Why can't it be ackowleged that warships are designed to take severe damage and survive, at least for a while? I dont see why so many are having such intense reactions to this and are willing to create scenarios to excuse such a poor few minutes of story time.

And it would have survived. If it wasn't dangerously close to a space station large enough to have its own gravity well to pull it down. The crew on the auxiliary bridge had 12 seconds to get the message that the bridge had been taken out, go through whatever routine needs to be taken to properly activate the auxiliary bridge, regain control of the ship and move back up before it hit the Death Star.

12 seconds for all of that is not a lot of time.

Don't forget the Empires massive superiority complex. They would have been supremely overconfident in finally engaging the vastly outnumbered rebel fleet in a close in fleet engagement, something that the Imperial navy excel at and is designed to do. The CO of the Executor may have pulled a Tarken and not brought his ship to full damage control readiness levels

Unless full damage control readiness means "literally have your hands hovering over the buttons to handle the complete loss of the main bridge within a span of 12 seconds" I don't see how that would have helped in this case.

Don't forget the Empires massive superiority complex. They would have been supremely overconfident in finally engaging the vastly outnumbered rebel fleet in a close in fleet engagement, something that the Imperial navy excel at and is designed to do. The CO of the Executor may have pulled a Tarken and not brought his ship to full damage control readiness levels

Admiral Piette could have pulled a Tarken. But then, he was so visibly on the verge of wetting himself every time Vader showed up, I don't think that terribly likely.

Since we never saw auxiliary control, we could not know what the reaction time could be, but allowing for automated emergency systems, such as an autopilot I could see the Executor surviving until the explosion of the DSII, but in a combat ineffective state. Meaning, that with Piette dead, fleet command would transfer somewhere else, Executor's crew would be focused on defense and probably disengagement to effect temporary repairs, possibly pulling a few ISDs out of action as well to serve as escorts. Under those conditions, I don't see Executor escaping the battle (probably) and getting caught in the fireball of DSII's explosion. That would have been more realistic to me, but far less satisfying to most others from a viewer's stand point.

Over confident or not, Im looking at real world examples and comparing them to a movie and finding the movie lacking in overall minor aspects. I've already said (on SEVERAL occasions) that it being a movie, those gaps in real world logic have to exist. Im just saying they are not believable to ME. And so I find myself having to defend my position to an ever growing number of people. Ain't the interwebs grand?

Unless full damage control readiness means "literally have your hands hovering over the buttons to handle the complete loss of the main bridge within a span of 12 seconds" I don't see how that would have helped in this case.

Under fleet engagement conditions as show in the DS battle, that is EXACTLY what full damage control readiness means.

We also don't know how long they had before they hit the point of no return, aka the point where they couldn't avoid the collision. As big as Executor was they might have been right on the edge of that point when the bridge went down. We don't have a full status report for Executor in the moments between the bridge being taken out and it hit the Death Star II thus we simply have no idea what damage in addition to the Bridge being destroyed the ship had taken.

We also don't know how long they had before they hit the point of no return, aka the point where they couldn't avoid the collision. As big as Executor was they might have been right on the edge of that point when the bridge went down. We don't have a full status report for Executor in the moments between the bridge being taken out and it hit the Death Star II thus we simply have no idea what damage in addition to the Bridge being destroyed the ship had taken.

Im curious how we even know the Executor was having trouble maintaining orbit? Was it mentioned in the dialog of the movie? Its been about a year or so since I saw and and I really don't remember. If someone could direct me to that reference, I would be grateful.

We also don't know how long they had before they hit the point of no return, aka the point where they couldn't avoid the collision. As big as Executor was they might have been right on the edge of that point when the bridge went down. We don't have a full status report for Executor in the moments between the bridge being taken out and it hit the Death Star II thus we simply have no idea what damage in addition to the Bridge being destroyed the ship had taken.

Im curious how we even know the Executor was having trouble maintaining orbit? Was it mentioned in the dialog of the movie? Its been about a year or so since I saw and and I really don't remember. If someone could direct me to that reference, I would be grateful.

It's mentioned nowhere, it was either it the Death Star's gravity, or the crash knocked debris over some buttons that send the Executor plummeting towards the Death Star's surface.

Gravity sounds more likely.

Unless full damage control readiness means "literally have your hands hovering over the buttons to handle the complete loss of the main bridge within a span of 12 seconds" I don't see how that would have helped in this case.

Under fleet engagement conditions as show in the DS battle, that is EXACTLY what full damage control readiness means.

Right, so let's analyse this scene as if real people were behind these controls.

A-wing hits the bridge. The resulting damage is enough to let the Death Star's gravity get a hold on it. Within 12 seconds after the A-wing hits the bridge, the Executor hits the Death Star.

Auxiliary bridge gets a message informing them that their bridge is kaput. Given that there won't be a lot of people on the bridge telling them this, I'll assume this part is automated. However, being real people, they need time to process this information. Let's assume these people are highly trained pro's and it takes them 4 seconds to get the message, read it and begin responding.

Now they need to assess the current problem, AKA: "what the hell is the ship doing now that the main bridge is kaput?" Let's assume again these people are highly trained professionals with lightning fast reflexes, and it takes them about 3 seconds to assess that somehow the bridge explosion got the Executor plummeting towards the Death Star and input the necessary course corrections.

We now have 5 seconds left for the 19 kilometer warship to pull away from what is essentially a nose-dive to the surface.

From what little I know of them, big warships don't exactly turn on a dime. Especially when they're moving quite fast. And while I don't know much more about military doctrine, I am fully ready and willing to learn just how fast an auxilary bridge can be brought online and react to the immediate shift in situations. Because I think my armchair admiral guesswork of 7 seconds to go from "What the hell just happened?" to "I'm pulling us out of this dive!" is really impressive already.

Sounds like a good analysis. Only one possibility I might suggest. Automatic pilot. Air craft have it, and I understand on some that it engages automatically when a pilot is debilitated. How it knows a pilot is unable to act, I don't know, but that's what I'm told. Maybe if there's a pilot on the board, they will chime in.

Anyway, why wouldn't auto pilot, or the equivalent, immediately take control until auxiliary control disengaged it? Wouldn't it just be a reasonable safety precaution considering the technology and computer artificial intelligence available in the Star Wars universe? The Falcon was shown to have droid like artificial intelligence with the ability to diagnose it's own malfunction, I think Cloud City was too. Why wouldn't the Executor? If it did, wouldn't it have a "self preservation" protocol to insure such an expensive piece of equipment with highly trained people were protected for the Empire? The Executor represented a huge investment in material, personnel and training. Isn't natural to assume the Empire would have gone to tremendous lengths to preserve it?

There's a big difference between a program being able to figure out what damage the ship its part of has taken and such a program being able to take control of a ship from its crew and I don't think the Empire would be willing to risk an SSD's brain turning against them or getting sliced by the rebels.

There's a big difference between a program being able to figure out what damage the ship its part of has taken and such a program being able to take control of a ship from its crew and I don't think the Empire would be willing to risk an SSD's brain turning against them or getting sliced by the rebels.

Ok. There's a big difference. Are you suggesting that a civilization with the sophistication to build Death Stars, SSDs and other technologies we've seen throughout all six films could not make a computer program with those capabilities? Another poster pointed out how supremely confident to the point of arrogence the Empire was. That being the case, would slicers really have worried them all that much if they thought they had created the perfect program? The same goes for artificial intelligence. We see all kinds of Imperial droids wandering about that could do increadible damage if turned, but the Empire didn't seem worried.The Empire is either arrogantly confident or not. Increadibly technically advanced or not. Which is it?

Dont hate me for referencing the prequels, but a clue could be in the plothole riddled opening scenes of episode 3. The space battle is going on in low corescant orbit. The ISC flagship that they boarded takes a hit to a gravity whosywhatsit, which causes it to instantly plummet towards the surface. Its clear from that trajectory that the vessel was not in a stable orbit, instead relying on repulsors or something to maintain its altitude above the planets surface. Now after awhile backups kick in and it levels off, but not before loosing alot of height.

A similar system could have been used on the executor, but this time they were too close to the DSII to recover in time

I would say that with some bad lack, it's easily possible that communication mess after bridge destruction would have cause ship destruction. All theese people controling shib subsystems have no clue about what's going on. If they get "all ahead" command, they just push a button. And that might be dangerous if the are close to some moon.

Another issue is terrible flawed construction of Executor. Clearly, this is another product of silly Tarkin Doctrine and it is meant to scare people and not for combat.

In combat ship, there is absolutely no reason to place most important part of the ship (command center) anyway close to the surface of the ship (instead of deep inside).

And this is only most basic issue.

Take Chineese carrier program. It is not so easy to build a big ship like Carrier. So they bought russian one to study. Next step is to build their own and study, and next step is to build more.

I imagine the construction of SSD, HUGE ship, so many times bigger than anything build before had to be problematic and considering imperial motivation system, many flaws had to be hidden and unknown until some serious problems happened.