Hi all. I had a quick question about Legion Weapon Training. In the core book p.127, Legion Weapon Training lists that Chaos Space Marines are proficient with all weapons of bolt, chain, melta, plasma, power, flame, primary, las, solid projectile, thrown, and launcher. It then goes on to mention that in essence the only weapons CSM are not proficient with are exotic weapons with individual talents.

My question is regarding shock weapons. These are not exotic by definition, but they aren't on the list. They are described as otherwise mundane weapons that have the added advantage of shocking and potentially stunning a target or causing great pain. Does this seem like a typo to anyone else? Should CSM be proficient with shock weapons as well via Legion Weapon Training?

Currently playing a Noise Marine that is beginning to focus on melee combat with the goal of besting the Khorne Berzerker in the group with flair over carnage. For RP purposes, it would be fun to supplement my Axon Razor with a Neural Whip. I just need to know what the concensus is on CSM and shocking to help argue the point with my GM.

Thanks.

Huh, never occurred to me.

But I'm fully inclined to agree. There's no sensible reason Legion Weapon Training shouldn't include Shock weapons, as far as I am concerned.

The intent of Legion Weapon Training seems to be to supply the Marine/Legionnaire with all the weapons trainings he should reasonably have learned while becoming an Astartes, and I think it's an oversight to not include Shock.

Unless someone wants to argue why they'd learn Thrown (which I don't even think is a Weapon Talent in Black Crusade) but not Shock.

Thinking of fluff I could see CSM not using shock weapons since they aren't law keepers and normally just kill their enemies. As for thrown they are taught to use grenades so it would make sense for them to have thrown.

Huh, I've always thought of it as Legion Weapon Training covering only Legion weapons, but it's not actually worded like that, and I've never had a Marine player bother trying to downgrade to regular weapons

That said, I agree with BrotherHuitztli. Shock weapons aren't really a thing a regular Marine would ever pick up, unless he specially favoured it.

On the other hand, why would a Marine need training to wield a shock weapon? Presumably the training is so you don't shock yourself, and can a marine even be hurt by most shock weapons?

I'm split on it, but would probably just allow a player to take it

I may be wrong on this, but I cannot recall a single Shock-type weapon being associated with the Adeptus Astartes, so the lack of training does not really surprise me.

On the other hand, given the extensive range of weapons covered by the Legion Training talent and the negligible effect of such a house rule for CSM characters, I don't see a strong reason to say no to including Shock, either. Personally, I'd go for the consensus within the group of people you are actually playing with , rather than an online forum full of random geeks.

Presumably the training is so you don't shock yourself

If so, it would be badly represented - given that the only effect of not having a weapon proficiency is a hefty bonus to hit the target. There are weapons in the game that allow you to hurt yourself with them, but this is actually independent of you having proficiency or not.

Personally, I've always regarded the weapon talents a bit problematic as there really isn't that much of a difference between swinging a chain- or a powersword. At the same time, rapiers, two-handed greatswords and poleaxes are all covered by a single weapon group. Yeah, right..

Personally, I've always regarded the weapon talents a bit problematic as there really isn't that much of a difference between swinging a chain- or a powersword. At the same time, rapiers, two-handed greatswords and poleaxes are all covered by a single weapon group. Yeah, right..

I always assumed this was due to the availability of the training. A rank and file soldier doesn't have access to chain weapons, but he could be well trained in all primary weapons, Also swinging a chain sword and power sword are different on how you can use them wrong.

This looks very much neural whip, or something similar, that Primarch Corax is using. So I would probably add Shock weapons to Legion list.

I might remember wrong but Lucius (the Eternal) used neural whip before he got his Lash of Torment, daemon weapon.

PS. After posting this quick checked and it seems Corax is using Power Whip

I always assumed this was due to the availability of the training. A rank and file soldier doesn't have access to chain weapons, but he could be well trained in all primary weapons, Also swinging a chain sword and power sword are different on how you can use them wrong.

A "rank and file soldier" being trained in all primitive weapons? That certainly doesn't sound "rank and file" anymore!

And as for using weapons wrong, I see much greater potential for this in the difference between swinging, say, a shock maul and a neurowhip.

I think a better way may have been to class weapon talents in how they are wielded, rather than what damage type they are - but that's just my personal assessment, perhaps influenced by what I'm used to from other games such as DSA.

Of course this is just me nitpicking on a minor detail - there are things in the rules I consider (much) worse.

I always assumed this was due to the availability of the training. A rank and file soldier doesn't have access to chain weapons, but he could be well trained in all primary weapons, Also swinging a chain sword and power sword are different on how you can use them wrong.

A "rank and file soldier" being trained in all primitive weapons? That certainly doesn't sound "rank and file" anymore!

And as for using weapons wrong, I see much greater potential for this in the difference between swinging, say, a shock maul and a neurowhip.

I think a better way may have been to class weapon talents in how they are wielded, rather than what damage type they are - but that's just my personal assessment, perhaps influenced by what I'm used to from other games such as DSA.

Of course this is just me nitpicking on a minor detail - there are things in the rules I consider (much) worse.

For my homebrew, I've actually split proficiencies into Type and Class, although this doesn't really solve the issue you present. Both a Neurowhip and a Shockmaul would be Class Melee and Type Shock. So I don't know.

But I still think that it's odd that Space Marines wouldn't get Shock. I fully agree that usually, they don't use shock weapons, but at the same time, their training is supposed to be more or less all-encompassing in regard to weapons. Do they tend to use Shock weapons? No. But I really think that they'd be taught how to use it as part of their basic training, if the situation arises.

But I still think that it's odd that Space Marines wouldn't get Shock. I fully agree that usually, they don't use shock weapons, but at the same time, their training is supposed to be more or less all-encompassing in regard to weapons. Do they tend to use Shock weapons? No. But I really think that they'd be taught how to use it as part of their basic training, if the situation arises.

• Melee Light (daggers, rapiers)
• Melee Chain (flails, whips)
• Melee Blunt (hammers, maces)
• Melee Sharp (axes, swords)
• Melee Long (polearms)
• Ranged Hand (pistols)
• Ranged Long (rifles)
• Ranged Heavy (heavy weapons)

• Melee One Handed
• Melee Two Handed
• Melee Polearms
• Ranged Hand
• Ranged Long
• Ranged Heavy

I could totally see a rank and file soldier being proficient with axe, sword, spear, hammer, shield, knife, staff and great weapon versions of those weapons. I don't think the scythe would fit though.