If the dice were randomly marked, no cause for concern.

This made me stop to think.Lets assume you can control the dice roll, and that due to that and manufacturing defects that a given die is more likely to land with a given face up, if it starts with a different face up in your hand.If that were true, you'd almost have to mark a different face on each die, I mean what's the odds of all 4-6 die having the same favored side? Or even just having one of the <focus> or <hit> sides be the favored one?Now that I think about it, if someone had every die marked on a <focus> it would make it less likely that they were using that as a way to cheat.

If someone were to go with the old microwave the dice trick they'd have to be sure to mark a facing so they'd know where to start thier roll off from for maximum effectiveness.

I don't think an possible method for cheating would stem from manufacturing defects but more from a specific method of "soft" rolling which would require a specefic facing to get perdictible results from. I know and have seen people do it with 6 siders so I don't doubt it's possible with an 8 though likely less consistent.

If the dice were randomly marked, no cause for concern.

This made me stop to think.Lets assume you can control the dice roll, and that due to that and manufacturing defects that a given die is more likely to land with a given face up, if it starts with a different face up in your hand.If that were true, you'd almost have to mark a different face on each die, I mean what's the odds of all 4-6 die having the same favored side? Or even just having one of the <focus> or <hit> sides be the favored one?Now that I think about it, if someone had every die marked on a <focus> it would make it less likely that they were using that as a way to cheat.

If someone were to go with the old microwave the dice trick they'd have to be sure to mark a facing so they'd know where to start thier roll off from for maximum effectiveness.

I don't think an possible method for cheating would stem from manufacturing defects but more from a specific method of "soft" rolling which would require a specefic facing to get perdictible results from. I know and have seen people do it with 6 siders so I don't doubt it's possible with an 8 though likely less consistent.

Granted, as has been said above, if there is a question the dice should be changed out. But worrying too much about this kind of nonsense is less than important.

but more from a specific method of "soft" rolling which would require a specefic facing to get perdictible results from.

I think I've heard of the microwave method, so yeah that would mean marking a given side ahead of time.

But the soft rolling all depends on how you do it. If what you're doing is more of a flip and the dice don't actually roll more then half a rotation, then yeah that's one thing. But in the video the OP had that's clearly not what was going on, that time at least.

Am I the only one to notice that in the video he rolled, Evade Blank Focus? That's an incredibly average roll. Whatever he was doing doesn't actually appear to be all that effective, in that one roll. Before anyone can say he is cheating, or doing something below board, you'd really need a large data set of recorded rolls. Humans have a tendency to remember the things that are unfavorable in these situations. We see and remember the rolls that went against us with more bias than we remember the above average favorable rolls. To really know if he is getting a true advantage with his rolls, you'd need to record at least a hundred rolls and then see if there is a true statistical anomaly. A few games of unrecorded antidotal evidence is about as bad a data set as you can have.

I think this quote from Rounders totally applies:

Mike McDermott: In "Confessions of a Winning Poker Player," Jack King said, "Few players recall big pots they have won, strange as it seems, but every player can remember with remarkable accuracy the outstanding tough beats of his career." It seems true to me, cause walking in here, I can hardly remember how I built my bankroll, but I can't stop thinking of how I lost it.

The dice gods are fickle indeed...

Anyone that rolls the dice in a "special" way are implicitly trying to cheat. I don't really care if they pray to the dice gods, fill them with good mojo, use telekinesis (or the force in this case) or have the skills to actually roll them in a certain way that improves their odds.

The game is constructed to be played with a random element, and if anyone can bypass that random element by other means than good game decisions, they are cheating. Just because telekinesis and most other methods most likely will fail doesn't mean that they didn't try to cheat, they were just bad at it. Anyone seriously claiming his dice lost their mojo, got detuned or became jinxed are just admitting that before that happened they were cheating or at least tried to.

I know this sounds extremely harsh, but it is meant to be taken with freight load of salt. :-D

The bottom line should be that the burden of proof when it comes to cheating lies with the accuser, but being a good sportsman means that you should not ***** if someone asks you to change dice or change the way you roll them. There is a reason casinos have very detailed rules for how to throw dice and when to use a new pair.

I am going to have to say this again, aren't i?

You're actually having a serious discussion over whether or not believing in dice mojo or telekinesis qualifies as cheating.

This forum has officially lost its freaking mind.

I am going to have to say this again, aren't i?

You're actually having a serious discussion over whether or not believing in dice mojo or telekinesis qualifies as cheating.

This forum has officially lost its freaking mind.

Join us Buhallin... We have cupcakes...

Now the real question is believing in something that is 100% not real (dice gods, mojo, telekinesis, etc...) but believing it is real and it will help you get an edge over your opponent cheating?

For example, Dave and Bob are across from each other for the next match getting everything set up. Bob tells Dave that during the dice rolls he will be using his telekinetic powers (that he clearly doesn't have but 100% believes he does have) to modify the dice rolls in his favor. Now if Bob truly had those powers then yes that would 1000% be cheating Now in this scenario Bob does not have telekinesis and Dave knows that telekinesis isn't real so agrees and goes ahead with the match. Every time Bob rolls the dice he attempts to use his powers to modify the dice but to no avail.

Is Bob cheating for attempting to modify the dice using techniques that are 100% fantasy but he thinks is real? To call him out on cheating would we then have to believe that it is in fact possible for some people to modify the dice with telekinesis?

Okay, yeah, the way he is rolling the dice is real funky. Enough so, that there are 8 pages on here (so far) about it.

He had you thinking he was rolling them weird during the game. Maybe cheating. Whatever he was doing, he had you worry about that, taking real estate in your brain away from the actual game itself. "Is he cheating? Maybe, maybe not. It's sure weird though. Maybe I should call a TO".

Any way to occupy your mind and take it away from what is going on in the actual game, the better. Maybe he can make you screw up. Maybe his list was weak against yours, and he needed an edge.

Next time it happens, maybe say: "Hey dude, howsabout you roll the dice like a human from now on? I don't wanna say you're cheating, but I think you're cheating."

I am going to have to say this again, aren't i?

You're actually having a serious discussion over whether or not believing in dice mojo or telekinesis qualifies as cheating.

This forum has officially lost its freaking mind.

THANK YOU

these discussions stem from one of the following

1: paranoia

2: sore loss

3: no spine to ask opponent or TO to use 1 pair of dice due to unremarkable odds

but its more often 1 & 2.

dice suck, it's part of the game. better to accept it and move on.

Wow, Reading the rest of the comments on here after last night, I have to say, its the attitudes of certain people displayed here in that are the cause of a lot of people shunning the tourney world. The "If I do something different from you because that is how I roll (poor pun, I know) I must be cheating?" There could be ahundred different reasons for him rolling that way. Perhaps he does indeed have a mastery of the force and is Qui'Goning the hell out of the dice. Maybe he likes to throw his dice that way? He could be trying to distract you from planning your moves and influencing you that way? He could be OCD, and can't roll any other way?

If at the end of the day you are so worried that you got beaten by the way someone rolled a dice, because he may have changed the outcome by as little as 1%? I pity you. Truly I do.

I guess that if you get out played by your opponent, they are cheating too?

I am going to have to say this again, aren't i?

You're actually having a serious discussion over whether or not believing in dice mojo or telekinesis qualifies as cheating.

This forum has officially lost its freaking mind.

THANK YOU

these discussions stem from one of the following

1: paranoia

2: sore loss

3: no spine to ask opponent or TO to use 1 pair of dice due to unremarkable odds

but its more often 1 & 2.

dice suck, it's part of the game. better to accept it and move on.

Best comment yet!! Couldn't agree more!

I don't really care if someone is cheating just a little. As long as they do it on purpose it is cheating, 1% or 0.001%, it doesn't matter.

If a person have OCD and need to ritualize his dice rolling that might be a good excuse and he should ask the opponent if it is ok. If they believe in actually being able to improve their dice rolls then it is an attempt at cheating, dice rolling skillz are not part of the game.

If I were to try to cut the deck in poker in a certain way to get some special card to be dealt to me more often, and I failed at the attempt (I never did get the card), but tried it over and over again. Would you say I tried to cheat but failed, it was not cheating to begin with since I never got the card (so it doesn't matter) or that I succeeded in cheating by improving my odds at getting the card (even though I didn't get the card this particual time)?

I don't believe in any special powers so I personally wouldn't care either way, but people being able to fudge their dice roll, by rolling the dice too little (and in a special way) or trying to "load" them by putting them in a microwave to increase their odds (even by just a few percent) is just as annoying as trying to move the ships (on purpose) while measuring range or estimating fire arcs. A few percent here and there can change a match. Not often but they probably only use such "tactics" when it actually do matter. And over a long game there can be more than a hundred dice rolls, so even if their cheating only gives them a one percent improvement, it will be an extra hit or dodge by the end of the match and that could be the difference (not most of the time but some times).

I have never played x-wing against a cheater or heard about people who have until now, so I wouldn't know how common or uncommon they are, but I can say for sure that annecdotal "evidence" in the form of lucky streaks or other random naturally occuring groupings are not a reason to even think about calling someone a cheater. But where there are tournaments and lots of players there will be a cheater now and then, especially if there are prestige, respect or prizes to be won. It's human nature I guess.

I don't really care if someone is cheating just a little. As long as they do it on purpose it is cheating, 1% or 0.001%, it doesn't matter.

If a person have OCD and need to ritualize his dice rolling that might be a good excuse and he should ask the opponent if it is ok. If they believe in actually being able to improve their dice rolls then it is an attempt at cheating, dice rolling skillz are not part of the game.

If I were to try to cut the deck in poker in a certain way to get some special card to be dealt to me more often, and I failed at the attempt (I never did get the card), but tried it over and over again. Would you say I tried to cheat but failed, it was not cheating to begin with since I never got the card (so it doesn't matter) or that I succeeded in cheating by improving my odds at getting the card (even though I didn't get the card this particual time)?

I don't believe in any special powers so I personally wouldn't care either way, but people being able to fudge their dice roll, by rolling the dice too little (and in a special way) or trying to "load" them by putting them in a microwave to increase their odds (even by just a few percent) is just as annoying as trying to move the ships (on purpose) while measuring range or estimating fire arcs. A few percent here and there can change a match. Not often but they probably only use such "tactics" when it actually do matter. And over a long game there can be more than a hundred dice rolls, so even if their cheating only gives them a one percent improvement, it will be an extra hit or dodge by the end of the match and that could be the difference (not most of the time but some times).

I have never played x-wing against a cheater or heard about people who have until now, so I wouldn't know how common or uncommon they are, but I can say for sure that annecdotal "evidence" in the form of lucky streaks or other random naturally occuring groupings are not a reason to even think about calling someone a cheater. But where there are tournaments and lots of players there will be a cheater now and then, especially if there are prestige, respect or prizes to be won. It's human nature I guess.

so do we do what? set a legal standard for dice rolling?! Personally I've found my dice get a little more positive if they actually roll on the table a bit rather than just dropped from the air after shaking. so i have a little side toss that i do. So by your definition i am cheating.

It seems like if I shake the dice 3 times and let go i'm not cheating, but what if 3 shakes gets me better results? do we make the legal standard dice roll two shakes?NO, because then your opponent has an unfair advantage and its broken so we need to nerf it. The correct answer is 4 shakes let go of the dice. hand and elbow stay straight and above the waist.all 5 fingers must open and remain open and stiff till all dice have landed on the table.

The obvious solution is official FFG dice rolling cups. $12.95 at Cool Stuff!

The obvious solution is official FFG dice rolling cups. $12.95 at Cool Stuff!

But that will only affect mental powers which require line of sight. It would probably fix the telekinesis issue, but I'm sure that there are any number of ways to cheat that wouldn't be affected - for example, I expect most dark gods powerful enough to take your soul in exchange for better luck wouldn't be inhibited by the cup.

And even then, you're assuming that a telekinetic couldn't also have clairvoyance or some other extra perception which would allow them to see into the cup.

I expect most dark gods powerful enough to take your soul in exchange for better luck wouldn't be inhibited by the cup.

Maybe, but even if they were they wouldn't tell you. Dark gods are tricky that way.

On a more serious note. I think most of us all can accept that various superstitions about dice rolling is nothing more then people trying to gain some control over chaos. Even though we know it won't work we still either wish it did or perhaps in some cases believe it does.

A friend of mine for example won't ever buy his own dice, because they won't work as well. He'll give you the money to buy them out of his pocket, but he can't be the who hands the money to the person behind the counter, you do. Then you give him the dice and it's a "gift" not dice he bought himself.

Myself when I'm playing D&D I always place my dice with the number I want facing up to train the dice to land on that number.

Neither of us actually believe this helps, but yet we keep doing it... partly as a joke, but I think partly because some subconscious part of us wants to believe we can exert control over chaos.

I also believe that most people know that such a thing isn't actually possible, but do accept such things as just being part of playing games. You see this type of thing all the time in gambling and other activities that are based to one degree or another on chaos or something we can't control like horse racing. pro athletes do the same thing, as do the fans.

Guess it's just accepted that my lucky hat counter balanced by your 3 shakes and pause rolling method, so we're all on the same playing field.

Suppose part of it also is that we don't consider it cheating because (well mostly because it doesn't actually work.) it doesn't give us an unfair advantage, any more then say Michael Jordan had an unfair advantage... it's an advantage that comes from us, rather then an artificial one like say loading the dice.

Amazing that a subject like this has gone on this long.

The video gives us very little information. A dice shake, a pause, and a drop.

If I was the TO of the day, I would receive a complaint of possible cheating. I would approach the table discreetly and observe. If the dice roller was observed looking at his open palm during his "pause" I would look at the dice.

If the dice are marked...he's cheating. He is looking to see which side is up before he drops in basically the same manner each time. He's amateurish....but he's controlling the dice.

Do a search on youtube: Dice Cheating (Banned Version) jigga2jones

...and watch, and compare.

holy smokes guys....it's obvious. Guy is a cheat. If he was watching the dice and the pause is so he can look, he's a cheat. If so...should have been ejected.

holy smokes guys....it's obvious. Guy is a cheat.

Video you linked doesn't work. Also you have no proof that he's actually cheating, at least not to the degree that you have reason to remove him from the event.

Once again, given the way he was rolling the dice, he has no real control over the way they land.

As to palming dice... That means you have loaded dice and can swap them out for the normal dice when you throw, but hand the normal dice back to the other guy or hide the loaded ones when needed.

That is not at all what's happening in this case.

Go back and do a search for the subject that I stated.

Guy's manner is less practiced, and we don't know that he is actually LOOKING at his dice.

...but the hand gestures are IDENTICAL. He IS controlling the dice...to a degree, this is cheating.

Don't be naïve.

If you don't think it's cheating...go to vegas and try some crap like that...see what it gets you.

It is illegal to "set" dice in vegas. That's what's going on here.

Don't be naïve.

I did a fair amount of research on this already. I suggest you try the same because you clearly have your terms mixed up, and perhaps even more.

One method of cheating with dice is the setting method. Which won't even work with x-wing dice in the first place, and in this case is not what the guy was doing. There's way too much bounce and spin for him to have any control at all over the final roll.

Setting only really works with 6 sided dice and in craps. Even then it's questionable if it works at all or not.

Dice palming on the other hand involves swapping dice out with out anyone seeing it. You pick up standard dice but actually roll loaded ones, then put the normal ones back down again when you're done rolling.

If you have another method the feel free to post a video or a link to it.

Don't be naïve.

:

It is illegal to "set" dice in vegas. That's what's going on here.

Yeah you clearly don't know what dice setting is, if you think that's what he's doing.

Dice setting is not illegal in casinos. Snakes eyes down is a very common superstitious set that people use all the time and there isn't a floor boss anywhere that would take you out back for that. Now sector rolling, that's another story and is actually cheating. You need strict and consistent conditions in order for this to occur, like a right-angled surface that you can throw your dice at the same way, all the time.

This is not what's happening in the video.

I'm sorry I misrepresented the term palming for what I meant...setting. If we can stop arguing semantics now...we can get to it....

Where is the evidence that dice setting is only effective on 6 sided dice? I may have missed that. Or is it just an assumption on your part....evidently it works here....as the OP states that the dice results evened out after not being able to 'read' his dice.

You're right...."setting dice" doesnt work.

Observe the title at the beginning of this vid.

I'll say that it's completely possible that the guy in the video thinks he's using a dice setting method. But if he is, he's doing such a bad job of it, that it isn't having any effect on the game.

That of course assumes that he's rolling the same way he does in the video the whole time. There's way to much bounce and spin for him to have any control over the dice the way he rolls in the video. Someone using dice setting would never let the dice bounce like he did.

Also as I said before a page or 2 back I don't think dice setting would even work with 8 sided dice because there isn't the same type of axis that you get with a cube.

What it comes down to in this case is intent, he may of intended to cheat, or maybe looking at the dice is nothing more then another superstition... I know I'd be hesitant to call him a cheater, if I were the TO. But I would have no problem asking him to use a new set of neutral dice.