This reminds me of an exercise discussion in one of my law classes about whether someone who attempts murder via voodoo curses should be punished in the same way as someone who attempts actual murder with a deadly weapon, as long as the person actually believes that their voodoo ritual can produce those results.

Heck yeah I want my dice to hit better than my opponents. If whenever I roll the dice and yell "booga booga" and only natural crits come up on any dice then I deserve to use my voodoo.

I didn't say "do you want to have better luck with your dice rolls than your opponent?"

I asked if you want the base statistical chance of your dice to naturally hit to be higher? That is to say, would you use dice you knew were manufacturing defects and rolled more hits if there was a 100% guarantee you would never be caught?

How do you prove actual belief?

Answer my question first.

That was directed to the other guy because I cant quote well on my phone.

Anyway of course I would not use dice manufactured to do so. I also would claim cheating just because someone has superstitions and ridiculous before they roll the dice.

Let me ask you this. If you're playing and the person across from you truly truly with all his heart and soul believes snapping his fingers before rolling the dice will make them bend to his will are you going to call the TO over? Do you truly believe this guy snapping his fingers has any influence on the outcome?

If it were me I'd just sigh, play the game, and beat the dude. I don't belive that superstitions and rituals can influence the dice.

Assuming you meant "wouldn't claim cheating".

Anyway of course I would not use dice manufactured to do so.

Exactly! You know that biases the game in your favour and thus don't do it, because it grants you an unfair advantage.

Let me ask you this. If you're playing and the person across from you truly truly with all his heart and soul believes snapping his fingers before rolling the dice will make them bend to his will are you going to call the TO over?

Of course not. No sane TO is going to throw someone out based on something like that, and I'm not saying they should. I'm not talking rules enforcement here, I'm talking mindset, sportsmanship and game ethics.

What I'm saying is that if our hypothetical fingersnapper believes truly truly with all his heart and soul that will skew the dice, he should not do it, and if he does he is not conforming to the spirit of fair play.

In that case, he is subjectively attempting to cheat. He's not actually cheating because snapping your fingers or any other fancy ritual doesn't do jack, but if he thinks it does then he's attempting to dishonestly bias the outcome. No, he's not going to get thrown out and nor should he, but it does, if and only if he truly thinks it biases the dice, make him a dishonest player. Same thought process as the hypothetical undetectable loaded dice.

Are we still in disagreement?

Lol nope I can get on board with all that

As long as the dice are not altered, your opponent nets 70% hits while you net 50% hits than Yes, the game is fair. You are not guaranteed equal results.

I said base chance, not how many you roll in a game. The probability of a natural hit on a perfect FFG die is 50%. That doesn't vary from game to game, there are four hits on the die and eight faces, if the chance of rolling each face is equal you will theoretically roll hits 50% of the time.

Lol nope I can get on board with all that

Now apply this to the marked dice and fancy roll case in the first post. Even if the technique is utterly ineffectual, if the aim of it is to significantly improve his rolls he is not attempting to play fair and thus should not use it on principle. The same I would say applies to all dice rolling techniques: if it's just the way you like to roll the dice, power to you, if you think it improves your odds over the base probabilities of 50% for a hit, 25% for a focus you shouldn't use it.

My post on the first page was overly strident (I was working off a possible misintepretation of the OP's description (shake, look, repeat until satisfied, SLAM allowing dice very little airtime) rather than the video and I now think the TO in the situation's more tempered response was the correct one. It's still feels suspect though.

I don't see anything unfair. Everyone has the same soul, everyone has an equal chance to sell that soul to some dark god for better dice rolls. If you refuse to do so, then that's not really any different than, say, me spending the time to learn everyone's dials, right? You could take the same steps, you just choose not to.

But congrats, this is officially the dumbest argument I've seen this week.

The video looks like he is waiting until the dice roll over to have all the same face up with his shake, then flips them. Looks to me like a technique to increase probability. It's not a traditional true shake in any sense, I would feel gamed

Assuming you meant "wouldn't claim cheating".

Anyway of course I would not use dice manufactured to do so.

Exactly! You know that biases the game in your favour and thus don't do it, because it grants you an unfair advantage.

Let me ask you this. If you're playing and the person across from you truly truly with all his heart and soul believes snapping his fingers before rolling the dice will make them bend to his will are you going to call the TO over?

Of course not. No sane TO is going to throw someone out based on something like that, and I'm not saying they should. I'm not talking rules enforcement here, I'm talking mindset, sportsmanship and game ethics.

What I'm saying is that if our hypothetical fingersnapper believes truly truly with all his heart and soul that will skew the dice, he should not do it, and if he does he is not conforming to the spirit of fair play.

In that case, he is subjectively attempting to cheat. He's not actually cheating because snapping your fingers or any other fancy ritual doesn't do jack, but if he thinks it does then he's attempting to dishonestly bias the outcome. No, he's not going to get thrown out and nor should he, but it does, if and only if he truly thinks it biases the dice, make him a dishonest player. Same thought process as the hypothetical undetectable loaded dice.

Are we still in disagreement?

this has officially degenerated into the most ludicrous thread I have seen on this site. On par with the rest of the internet though......lol

We've reached ludicrous speed!

I mean come on. Do you really need the rulebook to specifically cite marking your dice on a specific facing and then rolling in a fashion deliberately utilizing those markings, as illegal?

Alright here's one for the silly. The rules specifically state you can mark your dials for ownership. The rules do not have a similar clause for your dice. Therefore the rules do not allow for the marking of the dice for any purpose. But the rules don't say I can't mark my dice! The rules don't mention a lot of things you obviously can't do. That's how rules for games work they tell you what you can do not what you can't, it makes for a much short rulebook you know

I don't see anything unfair. Everyone has the same soul, everyone has an equal chance to sell that soul to some dark god for better dice rolls. If you refuse to do so, then that's not really any different than, say, me spending the time to learn everyone's dials, right? You could take the same steps, you just choose not to.

That logic makes any method of cheating fair because the other person can cheat too.

Here's the link to the rules forum thread "Dice Juggler" that seems very similar to the OP's description of what he witnessed.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/111056-dice-juggler-legality/

The nature of dice rolling is supposed to be a random one. Any dice rolling technique that tries to modify the probability of the rolling outcome is cheating, whether it is 2% or 98% in your favour. The key aspect of this player's technique is that he was watching his dice and then resetting them in his hand until he had a specific orientation showing. How he throws them is a matter of muscle memory and practice after that. By setting known values face up in his hand, he has learned which facings will result in a desired result, hence why players were noticing a consistent result in his dice.

Here is where I plug FFG for an X-wing dice rolling cup.

So, I have to say to begin with, this has been one of the most well presented arguments on the internet that I have ever read. No one has degenerated into the petty crap you usually see, and they have stuck to their points of view while listening to everyone elses... More or less.

Well done.

I havent actually watched the video, but has anyone paused to consider that he may have a compulsive disorder? He may not be able to roll the dice without looking at them first. I probably would have enquired about his method, if I were playing with him. Its easier to determine cheating by his reaction/explanation, then to jump to conclusion. And if I were to enter a tournament, I would probably mark a single face of my dice too, so I got them all back at the end, not for any malicious reason.

Just my thoughts.

I don't see anything unfair. Everyone has the same soul, everyone has an equal chance to sell that soul to some dark god for better dice rolls. If you refuse to do so, then that's not really any different than, say, me spending the time to learn everyone's dials, right? You could take the same steps, you just choose not to.

That logic makes any method of cheating fair because the other person can cheat too.

He's clearly being very sarcastic.

I would probably mark a single face of my dice too, so I got them all back at the end, not for any malicious reason

Why? Are your dice special? Does it matter who's dice you get back so long as you get back the same amount you started with?

Still look at it this way.

Marking your dice for ownership is a bit silly to begin with, but lets call that even remotely acceptable.

Why would you need to mark a specific facing? Or use that specific facing in the way you roll your dice?

I would probably mark a single face of my dice too, so I got them all back at the end, not for any malicious reason

Why? Are your dice special? Does it matter who's dice you get back so long as you get back the same amount you started with?

Still look at it this way.

Marking your dice for ownership is a bit silly to begin with, but lets call that even remotely acceptable.

Why would you need to mark a specific facing? Or use that specific facing in the way you roll your dice?

I would mark them, only to ensure that I got them all back. There are some less then honest people that will attempt to claim anything that isn't nailed down, having your name/mark on it often solves the issue. I would personally mark the blanks, just to be uniform. I don't think I indicated that I would use it in how I rolled them?

If people have issues with dice that have a mark on then during an event, hit up the TO, If you have a problem with how someone rolls the dice, or think its sus, ask them about it. Talking to your opponent could solve a lot of issues.

Didn't read all this but has anybody noticed that all markings on green dice are on a side with an evade and all markings on red dice are on Focus sides? Why mark them at all then for funny wristflicking voodoo dice rolling? He could just look at the symbols without said symbols being marked in addition.

So either he marked them to identify his property or he manipulated them in some way by drilling holes etc. and needs the markings to remember which sides are supposed to be up.

I think the guy wasn't cheating. I do the high flip roll myself which makes sure they tumble through the air and bounce on the table. If you can find a way without loading the dice to roll that way and get what you want the you might have telekinesis.

I pull out 6 red and 6 green dice and have 3 more in reserve in case some get lost. After rolling I bring them back to there pile by my cards and tokens. When I need to roll my red dice I look at my 6 dice and see which ones have crits and hits showing and use them. Why? I have no idea lol but I just do it!

If you guys watch the video, and please do, I think he just wanted to have the desired results in his hand before rolling. Go to las vegas and watch people play craps. Some of these old dudes at the craps tables have some of the craziest dice throwing techniques and always are looking at how the dice are and make sure they have them in the "right" position. I figure if stuff like that is fine for the pit bosses and casinos where real money is on the line then it should be fine for x-wing.

As far as getting my dice back everything of mine has blue on it somewhere except my dials and dice. I plan on putting blue stickers on the dials and thought about putting blue inside of the hits and evades of the red and green dice. I've very recently had 2 of my green dice go "missing" at a tournament and markings may have helped. Also it's not that my dice are special but I know exactly where my hands have been and my dice have been. Fact is some people are gross and spend half the match wiping snot away coming out of there nose and coughing in there hands and no I don't want there plague ridden dice...

I think the guy wasn't cheating. I do the high flip roll myself which makes sure they tumble through the air and bounce on the table. If you can find a way without loading the dice to roll that way and get what you want the you might have telekinesis.

I pull out 6 red and 6 green dice and have 3 more in reserve in case some get lost. After rolling I bring them back to there pile by my cards and tokens. When I need to roll my red dice I look at my 6 dice and see which ones have crits and hits showing and use them. Why? I have no idea lol but I just do it!

If you guys watch the video, and please do, I think he just wanted to have the desired results in his hand before rolling. Go to las vegas and watch people play craps. Some of these old dudes at the craps tables have some of the craziest dice throwing techniques and always are looking at how the dice are and make sure they have them in the "right" position. I figure if stuff like that is fine for the pit bosses and casinos where real money is on the line then it should be fine for x-wing.

As far as getting my dice back everything of mine has blue on it somewhere except my dials and dice. I plan on putting blue stickers on the dials and thought about putting blue inside of the hits and evades of the red and green dice. I've very recently had 2 of my green dice go "missing" at a tournament and markings may have helped. Also it's not that my dice are special but I know exactly where my hands have been and my dice have been. Fact is some people are gross and spend half the match wiping snot away coming out of there nose and coughing in there hands and no I don't want there plague ridden dice...

If you are ok with trying to cheat, then by all means play that way. Just stay away from my table, as you won't be welcome. I think it's either outright trolling at this point - or refusal to read the thread - to not understand that marking your dice is illegal in the Rules As Written.

I have played in many, many x-wing tournaments and have seen many different kinds of players. I have not needed to mark my dials, dice, or cards and I don't see the pressing need for anyone to do so. However, if it makes you feel better to mark your dial fine; it puts you at an unfair disadvantage, but whatevs - your choice. As far as dice goes, marking dice is illegal in games as a general rule and illegal in x wing as an explicit rule. Follow the rules. Not that hard.

I think the guy wasn't cheating. I do the high flip roll myself which makes sure they tumble through the air and bounce on the table. If you can find a way without loading the dice to roll that way and get what you want the you might have telekinesis.

If you guys watch the video, and please do, I think he just wanted to have the desired results in his hand before rolling. Go to las vegas and watch people play craps. Some of these old dudes at the craps tables have some of the craziest dice throwing techniques and always are looking at how the dice are and make sure they have them in the "right" position. I figure if stuff like that is fine for the pit bosses and casinos where real money is on the line then it should be fine for x-wing.

I believe the person was cheating. You and I will most likely disagree on this point.

He was influencing the probability of the diceroll with his technique. By checking his dice before thorwing, he's setting them in a "position" to be used. With muscle memory and practice a person can control the rolls that a dice takes (much like a juggler can toss a pin so that it rotates so many times to end up back in his hand with the handle in hand).

The T.O. had the person roll new dice but also higher off the table. The distance of the toss messed up his set height rolling technique and caused his rolls to become more random.

If more than one person states that one person has hot dice and they turn out to have a suspect rolling technique, it is more likely that they are cheating than playing fair.

By checking his dice before thorwing, he's setting them in a "position" to be used. With muscle memory and practice a person can control the rolls that a dice takes

If you're talking about dice setting, like they use in craps, that won't work here. The method used in craps, involves getting the dice to rotate on a single axis, much like the way a juggler rotates the club on a single axis.

The point of dice setting isn't to roll a given number, it's to avoid getting a 7, by reducing the number of faces that can add up to 7. They do this by putting the 6 and 1 on the outside edges and rolling the dice so they stay on a single axis, that means that the 6 and 1 face in theory can't show up. Even in the craps world the idea of actually controlling the dice is highly contested, with most saying it's nothing more then another superstition.

Given the way the 8 sided dice bounced and spun in the video, he had zero control over how they landed.

However, if it makes you feel better to mark your dial fine; it puts you at an unfair disadvantage, but whatevs - your choice.

How does marking the back of your dial put you at a disadvantage?