then you and I have two very different ideas of what constitutes a "sportsmanship issue".

Nope, I'd say that if someone is using a method to control the dice, a number of which you can watch Youtube videos for, is in fact an issue of poor sportsmanship.

However my point and perhaps this got lost, is that the mere act of marking your dice is not. Not unless the mark is intended to be used as part of the method of controlling the dice.

The video and pictures of the marked dice are pretty good evidence, no?

No honestly I don't think so. Not given how much bouncing the dice do after the fact. I'd say that it's questionable, and that the TO should of gotten involved. But I'd hardly call the video and picture conclusive evidence of cheating.

I guess that I would put even trying to cheat in the "cheating" category. I mean this I a recreational game. Where does that leave room for "questionable"?

Given the way the dice bounce and roll after the flip, it doesn't look like he can have much control over the outcome. It's not like he simply slaps them down on the table and they flip once or not at all.

Assume for a moment that he is at least trying to cheat. Are you okay with that, as long as he isn't very good at controlling the dice? Because personally, I think that even if he's only successful at getting the roll he's expecting 10% of the time, that's still cheating, and still unacceptable. He doesn't need to have perfect control to get an unfair advantage over the other people there.

If he was actually looking at the dice in his hand after shaking them, like the OP claimed, then he was likely trying to cheat. I think that critiques of his proficiency at cheating are beside the point.

I want you to know that I am not "flaming" you up front.

Didn't take it as flaming.

I do want you to consider your statement here and in other forums about things not being cheating if they aren't covered in the rules.

I like your Baseball example I think that such a thing is already covered under the sportsmanship rules. Actually your example of the 2 foot die is already covered because that's not one of the official FFG dice. So no that wouldn't be allowed, and is already covered.

Again, because I want to make this point perfectly clear.

The act of marking your dice is not in of itself cheating, period. The rules don't say anything about it, but do in fact mention marking cards or other objects, so it's not just that FFG didn't consider such things.

Marking your dice in such a way that would allow you control over them, however is an issue. So if I fill in the dice with led, making one side heaver then another, yes that's an issue.

Marking dice to cover up the whole I drilled in it, is again an issue.

Marking dice because I spent 5 hours rolling each dice to figure out which side is heaver, then you have an issue again. Although I'd question how effective that might be given the nature of X-Wing dice. You'd have to number each side so you could say for sure you know which face is up each time, or else the test wouldn't accomplish anything.

But simply putting a mark on the dice so I know which ones are mine, is not cheating.

There was another thread a while ago about someone doing the same thing. I can't remember the name of it, but it's a dice manipulation tactic, and it is outright cheating.

Must be missing it. Where is the rule about official FFG dice? Not being a smartass. Really don't see it in tourney rules.

I guess that I would put even trying to cheat in the "cheating" category.

Assume for a moment that he is at least trying to cheat.

I would too. I just don't assume he's trying to cheat.

If he was actually looking at the dice in his hand after shaking them, like the OP claimed, then he was likely trying to cheat.

That's an assumption. It could just as well be superstition as it is trying to cheat. Unless we consider superstitions as a method of cheating.

Must be missing it. Where is the rule about official FFG dice?

Here is the quote.

During tournament play, each player is required to use components included in official X-Wing products with the exception of third party maneuver templates, tokens, and range rulers, the use of which is addressed below.

It doesn't specifically say dice, but they're covered under components. Also didn't take what you said to be a smartass comment.

Must be missing it. Where is the rule about official FFG dice? Not being a smartass. Really don't see it in tourney rules.

It's not in the current edition of the rules, but I remember an older version that spoke to only FFG dice or the dice app and the dice cannot be altered in any way. However, it's just not there anymore, so I don't know if it's an oversight or a policy change on FFG's part.

that spoke to only FFG dice or the dice app and the dice cannot be altered in any way.

The whole thing falls under the components rules. You must use official FFG components, other then in the cases they mention. You also can not alter the components other then in the methods listed.

So while it no longer specifically says you have to use FFG dice, it's not a change in the rules, just a simpler way of stating it.

The dot is to indicate which dice are more Force-sensitive – they have more midi-chlorians.

that spoke to only FFG dice or the dice app and the dice cannot be altered in any way.

The whole thing falls under the components rules. You must use official FFG components, other then in the cases they mention. You also can not alter the components other then in the methods listed.

So while it no longer specifically says you have to use FFG dice, it's not a change in the rules, just a simpler way of stating it.

So since dice aren't specifically mentioned in the "able to alter" list then it stands to reason that they cannot be altered?

I can't believe this is seriously still under discussion.

Cheating or not cheating, It's against the spirit of the game. Fly Casual.

If it's an issue for you personally, call the TO and ask them to resolve the situation.

Chances are they'll have you both use one set of dice for the match.

Thread over. Sky not falling.

So since dice aren't specifically mentioned in the "able to alter" list then it stands to reason that they cannot be altered?

That's how I'd read it yes. It makes the rules exclusive rather then inclusive, because if it's not mentioned then it is not allowed.

Although I might be getting those terms backwards...

I think the TO did was right... You can't get mad at someone requesting neutral dice.

Looking at the pic and vid, the only thing he could be doing was just bettering his odds by making his rolls more consistent

and marked dice rolling systems.

Prove that he marked the dice as a means to control the outcome and you'll have a point. But unless you can do that, you're assuming he marked them for the sake of cheating.

The burden of proof is too high to do anything but make assumptions.

As no one witnessed him at the time he marked the dice, his motives can't be verified. Presumably, he's not going to confess to something that implicates him as a cheater, either. So he'll deny that he's cheating. Those are the only two ways to go about proving that he marked the dice as a means to control the outcome.

What else you can do is ask the question, if he's not trying to cheat, why are only a single side of the dice marked instead of all sides marked uniformly (which could/should be the case if he was using the marks for purposes other than cheating)?

You can also ask the question, does rolling the dice with the marked face up vs. any other face up even have an effect on the outcome? This is the only verifiable question, and it's one that is impossible to do without taking his dice away and rolling and rolling and rolling.

You can also ask, since all identical sides are marked, is it possible that he didn't test whether each die was different at all, and just marked them all identically? Does it still have an effect on the outcome?

Even if the true answers to these questions are, "there's no good reason not to have marked all sides uniformly", "yes", "no", and "yes", you still can't actually prove he did it to cheat. He can just say, "I didn't know that was the case when I marked them, I did it just to know which dice were mine", and then all you have is circumstantial evidence.

You can also watch the video and try to glean from there. Unfortunately, as evidence goes, it's weak: you don't see what his first hand roll was, because his fingers cover it. The roll that he tosses from his hand, though, (I'll acknowledge the possibility that I mis-read the dice due to insufficient image quality of the video) is an evade-focus-evade, which on the table (in the same order) became evade-focus-blank. The correlation is weak, and it's even weaker because it appears from the picture that he only marked one evade face on each defense die. So at most he was rolling 2 marked dice while leaving the third to chance, but it's also possible that neither or only one of the evades that showed up in his hand were marked. It's equally possible that the one evade he got was from one marked evade in his hand.

TL;DR: You can't actually prove it beyond reasonable doubt. But making assumptions is not automatically wrong, if the assumptions are based on reasonable support.

Again, because I want to make this point perfectly clear.

The act of marking your dice is not in of itself cheating, period. The rules don't say anything about it, but do in fact mention marking cards or other objects, so it's not just that FFG didn't consider such things.

Marking your dice in such a way that would allow you control over them, however is an issue. So if I fill in the dice with led, making one side heaver then another, yes that's an issue.

Marking dice to cover up the whole I drilled in it, is again an issue.

Marking dice because I spent 5 hours rolling each dice to figure out which side is heaver, then you have an issue again. Although I'd question how effective that might be given the nature of X-Wing dice. You'd have to number each side so you could say for sure you know which face is up each time, or else the test wouldn't accomplish anything.

But simply putting a mark on the dice so I know which ones are mine, is not cheating.

To be clear, I agree that marking alone isn't a problem. It's peeking at the dice that makes it a problem.

If he was actually looking at the dice in his hand after shaking them, like the OP claimed, then he was likely trying to cheat.

That's an assumption. It could just as well be superstition as it is trying to cheat. Unless we consider superstitions as a method of cheating.

Sure, it's an assumption. I'm not on a jury, I don't feel the need to have proof beyond a shadow of a doubt. And I'm not saying that he had to cheating, just that it's likely that was his intent.

If it's just a superstition, maybe he should find a ritual that looks less like cheating. If every round, before I moved Wedge, I picked up his maneuver dial and gave it a couple spins before revealing it, I'm sure you'd object. "Oh no," I'd assure you, "it's still the same maneuver. It's just a superstitious thing I do, for good rolls this round." I doubt you'd be satisfied by that.

So since dice aren't specifically mentioned in the "able to alter" list then it stands to reason that they cannot be altered?

That's how I'd read it yes. It makes the rules exclusive rather then inclusive, because if it's not mentioned then it is not allowed.

Although I might be getting those terms backwards...

So the marked dice are in fact cheating then as defined by the rules.

Edit: I would add that even though the markings are specifically forbidden by the rules, I would not care at all if there was no attempt at dice manipulation.

Did I say dice? I meant Chance Octagons. Marked Chance Octagons filled with mido-chlorians.

that spoke to only FFG dice or the dice app and the dice cannot be altered in any way.

The whole thing falls under the components rules. You must use official FFG components, other then in the cases they mention. You also can not alter the components other then in the methods listed.So while it no longer specifically says you have to use FFG dice, it's not a change in the rules, just a simpler way of stating it.

I'm sorry, VanorDM, but my "argument" stands. It's not in the rules.

I'm just being devils advocate here. You can't just defend your other posts that you argue it isn't in the rules and then expect me to just go with how you interpret the rule. As a matter of fact, current tournament rules no longer state anything about HAVING to use official FFG components (edit- maybe it does!.)... I'm re-reading them now.

I am not disagreeing with your assessment on here, only making the point that things can be cheating and unsportsmanlike whether they are listed in the rule book.

Btw... Where in the rules does it say that you can't manipulate the dice rolls? Devil's Advocate

why are only a single side of the dice marked instead of all sides marked uniformly (which could/should be the case if he was using the marks for purposes other than cheating)?

If I were to mark my dice so I could tell them apart. Then I'd only mark one side, simply because it never occurred to me that this would be useful as a method of cheating.

If it's just a superstition, maybe he should find a ritual that looks less like cheating.

That's a matter of perspective, to me it doesn't look like cheating because of the bouncing after the flip. If someone looks at the sides showing then place them on the table so they don't flip/bounce after the fact. Yes they're trying to cheat.

Someone looks at them in their hand then rolls them so they do flip/bounce then no. When I play D&D, I always put my dice with the highest number facing up, so they get used to it. Is that cheating?

If every round, before I moved Wedge, I picked up his maneuver dial and gave it a couple spins before revealing it, I'm sure you'd object.

Well seeing how that is clearly against the rules... Yeah I'd object.

So the marked dice are in fact cheating then as defined by the rules.

Yep technically you are correct. I guess I'd let the TO decide if it's an issue. But for what it's worth, there was a time in which marking the back of your dial was also against the rules.

So the marked dice are in fact cheating then as defined by the rules.

Yep technically you are correct. I guess I'd let the TO decide if it's an issue. But for what it's worth, there was a time in which marking the back of your dial was also against the rules.

I recall that time. I kinda think it's still a good idea too. If only because I like my maneuvers to be secret.

As a matter of fact, current tournament rules no longer state anything about having to use official FFG components.

Yes it does.

Version 2.1.1/Updated 7.16.2014

Under the heading Component Modifications, 5th paragraph down.

During tournament play, each player is required to use components included in official X-Wing products with the exception of third party maneuver templates, tokens, and range rulers, the use of which is addressed below.

Unless your argument is that dice aren't covered under this.

Btw... Where in the rules does it say that you can't manipulate the dice rolls? Devil's Advocate

I get your point, but I don't really think this needs to be answered.

Fair enough. Last post from me here.

My point remains it could be cheating whether it specifically says so in the rules or not.

Here's a better conundrum on this level. Let's say I have a set of FFG dice where all the hit faces have an unpainted center. They came out of the dice pack that way, and I am not allowed to alter them. Does that mean I have dice with 4 crits on them? Or howbout this; let's say I have a fancy translucent die where one of the bubble collapsed while cooling creating a giant divot on a blank side. This divot is so big that it actually bends one of the corners in to a very perceptible v shape. Is that die legal for tournament play? Now obviously I have answers to all of this, but it bears consideration.

Maybe he's cheating, maybe he just thinks having them on a given side improves his odds.

Knowingly improving his odds is cheating.

If it's just a superstition

Even if it doesn't work if he's attempting to improve his odds, superstition or no, he is attempting to cheat. Any attempt to influence the RNG is an attempt to cheat.