And Disney gave us the Black Hole...Which if it were not for VINCENT and Old BOB would have been one of the bleakest SF movies ever.

Yes, how dare Disney take a franchise from an abusive father figure and hand it to a generation of creators who grew up on and adore Star Wars and want to do nothing but make it great again.

Anything worth having from the EU (of which there is very little) will be pulled back into the canon and the rest will thankfully be flushed out with the garbage.

Like I said in my previous post, I'm not here to argue a point I know I can't win. I know that my boycotting Star Wars will have no impact on anything, but it is my right and I plan on using it. I know many people who also aren't going to see the movies because of reasons similar to my own, but it still won't make a difference. That's fine. Star Wars will live on in one form or another, and when the new generation of fans to see where everything came from they will find the great wonderful world that is the EU (and some might even agree that the "un-remastered version" of the Star Wars universe is better).

Just a question though (I'm honestly curious): if in ten years another company were to buy Star Wars and say: "hey lets scrap everything that Disney made and start again," what would be your reaction to that?

"Eh. If they have to."

You're right, I haven't. No one else has seen the show to know if it will be great either. Perhaps I am a bit too harsh; but with Disney killing 35 years of EU I will probably treat everything they produce that is Star Wars as "garbage." Probably extreme and/or crazy, but that's the way I feel: They do something I don't like, I have the right to boycott them.

You will never, ever, under the drowning-out-anger cries of love and adoration for everything star wars, EVER be heard. Your boycotts will begin and end on facebook, fueled only by irate people with nothing but bitterness in their hearts when they should give something a chance, for they have no agency over what happens next in Star Wars- not the worldwide phenomenon we all know and love.

Go ahead. Boycott. As far as the CEOs, writers, artists are concerned, no matter how many thousands of you there are, compared to the millions otherwise?

You will be alone in doing so, forever.

OMG, THIS ^

Just a question though (I'm honestly curious): if in ten years another company were to buy Star Wars and say: "hey lets scrap everything that Disney made and start again," what would be your reaction to that?

Okay, no worries. I'm fine with it. I don't get all bent out of shape. Besides, it would probably give another three (or more!) awesome space opera science fiction/fantasy movies. Bring it!

That's what's been done, in a way, with so much of the King Arthur and Robin Hood stories. Most people just don't realize it if they've never studied medieval literature. The big characters don't get tossed, but the hangers-on always do, they come and go as fashion and taste dictate.

Perhaps I am a bit too harsh; but with Disney killing 35 years of EU I will probably treat everything they produce that is Star Wars as "garbage."

But that's not what happened. Disney didn't say "everything in the EU is gone, mwa ha ha!" They basically said "everything that isn't a Star Wars movie or TV show is liable to be overwritten if we need that storytelling space".

Which kind of makes sense, because if anyone competent wants to play in the post-ROTJ story space, the very first thing he or she would need to do is delete everything past Vector Prime. (The second thing would be to delete everything written by Kevin Anderson.)

I'm guessing that the Expanded Universe needed to die simply from the sheer number of lawyers and contracts that would have been needed to secure everything with Disney as a new owner...

I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding from friends and acquaintances who wrote licensed fiction for TSR and/or Wizards of the Coast is that you still own the text, but you give up rights to any new content you add as the "price" for being able to freely adopt and adapt the content that already exists in-universe.

So Timothy Zahn invented Mara Jade, but he didn't have any particular rights to her, and a number of other people used her in their subsequent fiction. Zahn invented Coruscant, too, but Lucas later adopted it into the core canon; Michael Stackpole borrowed heavily from Kevin Anderson's Jedi Academy trilogy for I, Jedi; Zahn invented Han and Leia's twins, Anderson named their third son Anakin, and the three of them became the centerpiece of the whole NJO arc; et cetera.

So I don't think it was a legal problem, so much as a Gordian-knot solution to the problem of trying to somehow situate new, post-ROTJ stories in the already crowded canon.

Good stories, the ones that last are always tweaked and re-invented by each successive generation of fans... Each new century those ancient stories have been with us have brought new plot threads, new characters get added, unpopular characters get dropped. It's the way of story-telling. To think anything has ONE TRUE FORM when it comes to the ancient art of story telling is fairly naive and foolish.

Even better is when you look at how frequently folk stories ended up woven together. Maid Marian didn't start out associated with Robin Hood, but with a separate French legend about a different Robin;some Britons either confused Robin Hood with the Robin in Marian's story, or just thought Robin Hood needed a love interest, and suddenly she's in the Robin Hood stories.

I wonder if characters like Mara, Karrde, Han and Leia's kids, etc. aren't destined for a similar fate: they're not part of the canon any more, but they're still useful characters (representing obvious storytelling archetypes), and people telling future stories in Star Wars might reach for them and re-incorporate them into the "official" stories.

Meh, while I'm relatively glad they got rid of EU material, I don't really much care about canon. When I run a tabletop RPG I keep what I like and ditch what I don't. While there are a few gems in the EU, most of it is garbage in MY opinion. I loved the Thrawn trilogy when it was released but I couldn't even bring myself to read it nowadays. It's just....not for me.

I have far more faith in Disney then I have in Lucas, especially given their track record since releasing Marvel movies. Lucas gave us creepy stalker whiny Chosen one, Disney gave us a talking raccoon and a walking tree who were just awesome. Actually, after Willow and Indiana Jones, Lucas hasn't created anything that sticks out in my mind...

Star Wars: Rebels has me cautiously optimistic. The 7 minute clip didn't really get me going, and like others I'm waiting for a kowakian space monkey in a fez to make an appearance. I think once it gets past its growing pains it'll have something great to offer.

So yeah, I'm glad the Vong are gone, the lame Suncrusher ship is gone, Mara Jade is gone, and Lando's mining colony made out of AT-AT legs is gone...

-Cal

Alright cool, that answers my question. Inquiring minds wanted to know and they have discovered.

But The Clone Wars was a kiddie show. Attack on Titan is not a kiddie show. TCW should have been more like AoT, then it would have been great.

Dear god NO!!!!

Star Wars is and always should be kid friendly. Now, there are happy mediums. See Gargoyles, Batman the Animated Series, and the Avatar franchise. In fact, I think the Clone Wars got a little too dark at times. Star Wars should not be grimdark. Star Wars is an adventure. Being light hearted and fun does not automatically bad, or in your view "kiddie".

I love Attack on Titan. But to think Star Wars should be anywhere close to that kind of violence, gore, and depressing atmosphere speaks volumes. If you think Star Wars needs to be more like that, then I don't think you are a Star Wars fan.

But that's not what happened. Disney didn't say "everything in the EU is gone, mwa ha ha!" They basically said "everything that isn't a Star Wars movie or TV show is liable to be overwritten if we need that storytelling space".

Which kind of makes sense, because if anyone competent wants to play in the post-ROTJ story space, the very first thing he or she would need to do is delete everything past Vector Prime. (The second thing would be to delete everything written by Kevin Anderson.)

...

I wonder if characters like Mara, Karrde, Han and Leia's kids, etc. aren't destined for a similar fate: they're not part of the canon any more, but they're still useful characters (representing obvious storytelling archetypes), and people telling future stories in Star Wars might reach for them and re-incorporate them into the "official" stories.

It definitely makes sense from the standpoint of creative freedom to clear the field, but it's not as necessary as you might think. There are plenty of places you could fit a new story into the timeline without disturbing the material on either side. While there are major and dramatic conflicts in the EU, only the existing trilogies really change the status quo of the galaxy.

Since the end of Episode VI, the Alliance and/or the Jedi have been the primary protagonists, and the Empire and/or the Sith have been the primary antagonists. While new enemies may be introduced during a series (the Yuuzhan Vong War is the obvious example) the series inevitably ends by sweeping them away (at least for the time being) and returning to the struggle between the Alliance/Jedi and Empire/Sith. Other than the current title of the Alliance and the mortality of certain characters, any period not covered by existing novels in the post-Endor EU can be used for pretty much the same stories.

In fact, that "30 years after Return of the Jedi" timeframe for Episode VII fits nicely into the decade-long gap in the existing chronology between the end of the Yuuzhan Vong Invasion in 29 ABY and the lead-up to the 2nd Galactic Civil War in 39 ABY. The only material in that decade is The Dark Nest Trilogy, which consists of only three novels and lasts only a single year (35-36 ABY).

My guess is we'll see plenty of EU characters, locations, and events, re-used or at least referenced in some form. Don't be surprised if the new movies actually incorporated or even re-told major plotlines directly. In fact, the casting and bits of plot we've already gotten for Episode VII makes me think (and hope) they could be using the Legacy of the Force series as a basis for the movies.

Yes, how dare Disney take a franchise from an abusive father figure and hand it to a generation of creators who grew up on and adore Star Wars and want to do nothing but make it great again.

Anything worth having from the EU (of which there is very little) will be pulled back into the canon and the rest will thankfully be flushed out with the garbage.

Like I said in my previous post, I'm not here to argue a point I know I can't win. I know that my boycotting Star Wars will have no impact on anything, but it is my right and I plan on using it. I know many people who also aren't going to see the movies because of reasons similar to my own, but it still won't make a difference. That's fine. Star Wars will live on in one form or another, and when the new generation of fans to see where everything came from they will find the great wonderful world that is the EU (and some might even agree that the "un-remastered version" of the Star Wars universe is better).

Just a question though (I'm honestly curious): if in ten years another company were to buy Star Wars and say: "hey lets scrap everything that Disney made and start again," what would be your reaction to that?

If it includes wiping out the prequels it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make, especially if the new films are of that quality.

As long as the original trilogy lives on and the new stuff is informed and inspired by those, it's fine. I really enjoy the Marvel movies and they ignore and break plenty of that universe. Pretty much every imagined world that has dozens of creators work on it over decades needs pruning from time to time. I wish I could purge some of the Star Wars books I've read from my memory as easily as Disney wiped them from canon. Anderson, I'm looking at you.

me like idea of imp huge ship by xmas

Dear god NO!!!!

Star Wars is and always should be kid friendly. Now, there are happy mediums. See Gargoyles, Batman the Animated Series, and the Avatar franchise. In fact, I think the Clone Wars got a little too dark at times. Star Wars should not be grimdark. Star Wars is an adventure. Being light hearted and fun does not automatically bad, or in your view "kiddie".

I love Attack on Titan. But to think Star Wars should be anywhere close to that kind of violence, gore, and depressing atmosphere speaks volumes. If you think Star Wars needs to be more like that, then I don't think you are a Star Wars fan.

We... are talking about the same Star Wars here, aren't we? The one where the first appearance of the villain is him entering a corpse-strewn corridor and strangling the boarded ship's captain? Where the hero returns home to find the charred husks of the only family he has ever known before leaving with a limb-chopping Jedi to save a princess who was forced to watch her own planet with billions of people get blown up? And where the hero breaks off his Jedi training because his friends were being tortured and frozen into metal bricks for no other reason than to lead him into a trap? A trap where he found out that the villain who was in good part responsible for the deaths of his family and billions of other people was his own father, in a fight where his hand was promptly chopped off? The same Star Wars that had evil space-slug crime lords keep scantly-clad women as slaves to feed to his pet monster when their dances had grown dull and who fed his prisoners to another monster who would keep them alive in order to slowly digest them over a thousand years? The movies where the final battle had the hero being forced to face his own father in mortal combat, only to be tortured with lightning by the big villain when he found a way out of that conundrum and his grand reward for managing to get through all that was watching his father die in his arms?

That Star Wars?

Yup. And all within a PG setting.

Dear god NO!!!!

Star Wars is and always should be kid friendly. Now, there are happy mediums. See Gargoyles, Batman the Animated Series, and the Avatar franchise. In fact, I think the Clone Wars got a little too dark at times. Star Wars should not be grimdark. Star Wars is an adventure. Being light hearted and fun does not automatically bad, or in your view "kiddie".

I love Attack on Titan. But to think Star Wars should be anywhere close to that kind of violence, gore, and depressing atmosphere speaks volumes. If you think Star Wars needs to be more like that, then I don't think you are a Star Wars fan.

I'm not saying Star Wars should be like that. However, The Clone Wars should have been. I mean, from what little you hear of it from Episode IV it was a big event. We know it led to the formation of the Empire, so it HAD to be extremely devastating to make the people support an Empire to end it. Millions died, worlds were rendered uninhabitable, and no one was immune to death. We don't really see much of the carnage of war in the series.

Now my ideal TCW series would have been to follow a no-name Jedi throughout the war and his soldiers. The "main characters" appear here-and-there, but you get attached to the Jedi and the Clones under him. You see the camaraderie between them as they work together as a unit, overcoming seemingly insurmountable obstacles. You see carnage, death, widespread food shortages, people living in abject squalor because of what both sides of the war have done. Then at the end of the show, the Clones shoot down the Jedi because that was the order given.

The way I see it, The Clone Wars was a very dark time in the galaxy; it should be presented as such.

Then again perhaps I'm crazy

Dear god NO!!!! Star Wars is and always should be kid friendly. Now, there are happy mediums. See Gargoyles, Batman the Animated Series, and the Avatar franchise. In fact, I think the Clone Wars got a little too dark at times. Star Wars should not be grimdark. Star Wars is an adventure. Being light hearted and fun does not automatically bad, or in your view "kiddie". I love Attack on Titan. But to think Star Wars should be anywhere close to that kind of violence, gore, and depressing atmosphere speaks volumes. If you think Star Wars needs to be more like that, then I don't think you are a Star Wars fan.

We... are talking about the same Star Wars here, aren't we? The one where the first appearance of the villain is him entering a corpse-strewn corridor and strangling the boarded ship's captain? Where the hero returns home to find the charred husks of the only family he has ever known before leaving with a limb-chopping Jedi to save a princess who was forced to watch her own planet with billions of people get blown up? And where the hero breaks off his Jedi training because his friends were being tortured and frozen into metal bricks for no other reason than to lead him into a trap? A trap where he found out that the villain who was in good part responsible for the deaths of his family and billions of other people was his own father, in a fight where he was promptly dismembered? The same Star Wars that had evil space-slug crime lords keep scantly-clad women as slaves to feed to his pet monster when their dances had grown dull and who fed his prisoners to another monster who would keep them alive in order to slowly digest them over a thousand years? The movies where the final battle had the hero being forced to face his own father in mortal combat, only to be tortured with lightning by the big villain when he found a way out of that conundrum and his grand reward for managing to get through all that was watching his father die in his arms?That Star Wars?

As for the Clone Wars, that show had some kiddie episodes and some more adult episodes, but it worked. There was a crazy amount to killings, a limb hacking throughout that series that you wont find in many kids shows. From what we've seen of Rebels so far theres at least half a dozen deaths by blaster fire and a few grenades to the face, and that was in the span of seven minutes. That's not exacaly spongebob square pants now is it?

Dear god NO!!!!

Star Wars is and always should be kid friendly. Now, there are happy mediums. See Gargoyles, Batman the Animated Series, and the Avatar franchise. In fact, I think the Clone Wars got a little too dark at times. Star Wars should not be grimdark. Star Wars is an adventure. Being light hearted and fun does not automatically bad, or in your view "kiddie".

I love Attack on Titan. But to think Star Wars should be anywhere close to that kind of violence, gore, and depressing atmosphere speaks volumes. If you think Star Wars needs to be more like that, then I don't think you are a Star Wars fan.

I'm not saying Star Wars should be like that. However, The Clone Wars should have been. I mean, from what little you hear of it from Episode IV it was a big event. We know it led to the formation of the Empire, so it HAD to be extremely devastating to make the people support an Empire to end it. Millions died, worlds were rendered uninhabitable, and no one was immune to death. We don't really see much of the carnage of war in the series.

Now my ideal TCW series would have been to follow a no-name Jedi throughout the war and his soldiers. The "main characters" appear here-and-there, but you get attached to the Jedi and the Clones under him. You see the camaraderie between them as they work together as a unit, overcoming seemingly insurmountable obstacles. You see carnage, death, widespread food shortages, people living in abject squalor because of what both sides of the war have done. Then at the end of the show, the Clones shoot down the Jedi because that was the order given.

The way I see it, The Clone Wars was a very dark time in the galaxy; it should be presented as such.

Then again perhaps I'm crazy

Kids movies and cartoons were a lot more violent before the 90's. By today's standards Tom & Jerry are probably too adult and violent for kids.

Oh I know, as sad as the truth it may be, and you are right. Star Wars is a kid's adventure by the standards of the 70's and 80's, and the clone wars reflects that. Sithborg noted he found the clone wars a little too dark at times, but it's really quite close to the original trilogy in terms of atmosphere. Heroic adventures with a seriously dark undertone.

I'm not saying Star Wars should be like that. However, The Clone Wars should have been. I mean, from what little you hear of it from Episode IV it was a big event. We know it led to the formation of the Empire, so it HAD to be extremely devastating to make the people support an Empire to end it. Millions died, worlds were rendered uninhabitable, and no one was immune to death. We don't really see much of the carnage of war in the series.

Agreed, but you have to remember that Clone Wars was constrained by the somewhat fragmented and inconsistent depiction of the war in Episodes I-III. Within that set of constraints, I feel like the cartoon did an admirable job.

Now my ideal TCW series would have been to follow a no-name Jedi throughout the war and his soldiers...

You mean like Ahsoka Tano?

The "main characters" appear here-and-there, but you get attached to the Jedi and the Clones under him.

That happened, at least for me.

You see the camaraderie between them as they work together as a unit, overcoming seemingly insurmountable obstacles. You see carnage, death, widespread food shortages, people living in abject squalor because of what both sides of the war have done.

This definitely happens, in basically every episode that isn't set on Coruscant. Take the Mandalore plot line, even though I know you don't like it: the war caused widespread shortages and civil unrest, culminating in a coup--even though the world was officially and staunchly noncombatant. What about the episodes where the Rebels Separatists attempt to wipe out a village full of pacifists just because a couple of Jedi happen to have sought shelter there?

It was pretty apparently to me, even as a little kid when I was watching Episode 4 for the first time, who was on which side:

Luke & Leia, dressed in white.
Han, dressed in black & white.

Obi-Wan, dressed in a neutral blend of browns and tans.
Imperial officers, all in dark grey.
Darth Vader, defines the colour black.

It's pretty obvious who the White Cowboy Hat wearing Sherrif is, and who's the bad guy here.

The Stormtroopers were the only real anomoly to the whole colour as an indicator of which side they're on.

There was also the story arc about needed to deliver food and medical supplies to the starving twileks.

It's pretty obvious who the White Cowboy Hat wearing Sherrif is, and who's the bad guy here.

The Stormtroopers were the only real anomoly to the whole colour as an indicator of which side they're on.

Fortunately they had skull-shaped helmets to help deal with that.

It was pretty apparently to me, even as a little kid when I was watching Episode 4 for the first time, who was on which side:

Luke & Leia, dressed in white.

Han, dressed in black & white.

Obi-Wan, dressed in a neutral blend of browns and tans.

Imperial officers, all in dark grey.

Darth Vader, defines the colour black.

It's pretty obvious who the White Cowboy Hat wearing Sherrif is, and who's the bad guy here.

The Stormtroopers were the only real anomoly to the whole colour as an indicator of which side they're on.

Clone wars was kiddie? It was probably the most adult "kids" show there ever was then!

Besides all the general deaths on the show, you had executions, sabers through the chest, decapitations, kids being killed, etc.

Don't get me wrong, there were certainly lighter moments and episodes and characters, but it was overall far from just being a "kids" show.

I think Rebels is likely to be more kid friendly than the Clone Wars.

Clone Wars was wrong on SOOOOO many points. First of all, they COMPLETELY WRECKED mandalore (and in doing so stopped IC 2 from coming out!!!!!!) Second, the clones did not have some chip in their brains that made htem commit order 66, it was simply a GAR contigency order. Third, they made the jedi seem like they loved the clones and would anything for them, when in reality the clones were essentially 3 million slaves to the jedi.

Clone wars was kiddie? It was probably the most adult "kids" show there ever was then!

Besides all the general deaths on the show, you had executions, sabers through the chest, decapitations, kids being killed, etc.

Don't get me wrong, there were certainly lighter moments and episodes and characters, but it was overall far from just being a "kids" show.

I think Rebels is likely to be more kid friendly than the Clone Wars.

Clone Wars was wrong on SOOOOO many points. First of all, they COMPLETELY WRECKED mandalore (and in doing so stopped IC 2 from coming out!!!!!!) Second, the clones did not have some chip in their brains that made htem commit order 66, it was simply a GAR contigency order. Third, they made the jedi seem like they loved the clones and would anything for them, when in reality the clones were essentially 3 million slaves to the jedi.