All due respect,

This is what people say right before they say something disrespectful.

I just want to point this out after having a "runaway" thread of my own...

With all due respect, your thread ran away from you because it reiterated a really common complaint from new players, and offered a transparently unbalanced "solution".

Granted, the OPer could have been a little more eloquent in his OP...

As his or her subsequent posts have demonstrated, it's not a problem of a lack of eloquence but of gaps in reasoning. He or she is certain that Dash Rendar is going to be a problem because it makes double Falcons too strong, despite the fact that double Falcons aren't particularly strong in the overall metagame, and that Dash doesn't actually contribute much to double Falcons.

...but I guarantee that no one at FFG is so thin skinned as to feel offended on these blogs. They have probably gotten it with both barrels about many many things that were unwarranted over the past few releases. Their product will hold up to stronger criticism than this... and they know it. It's a GREAT game and if people were truly so upset about a rule or release, they would stop playing it and we would never hear from them. As is the case for Hollywood stars, any publicity is good publicity.

People who produce work of any kind for public consumption get used to criticism. That doesn't mean that unadulterated vitriol is easy to swallow, particularly when--as they so often are around here--the bitter and dire pronouncements about the state of the game are unfounded.

Many on here will disagree just as passionately and some good discussion will be had regardless of which side you're on...I give him credit for sparking interest and debate. Let people vent. What does it cost us? And by the way, that's what these forums were created for. This would be a boring place if everyone approached it from a church-like "praise only" standpoint. I don't believe it's disrespectful and even if you argue it is, I certainly don't think FFG takes this kind of post personally. It helps them more than it hurts them.

A debate is what happens when informed, thoughtful people disagree, and when that happens, it's always interesting (whether I end up participating or not). What usually happens on this board, though, is that someone makes a hyperbolic statement without backing or warrants, and--particularly on the Internet, where no one ever wants to be seen as backing down or changing a position--it's tough to start a real debate on that basis.

My thread was an opinion. I asked for thoughts. I intelligently defended my position. I had not seen anyone say what I said. I didn't search it, granted, but I was unfairly blasted. I wasn't whining. If you think I was, go back and read my respectful posts and I asked for thoughts on how it might be tweaked. Many people assumed wrongly that I was rehashing something like "why do they lose an action?". I wasn't.

If I genuinely repeated something exactly that someone said, go back and find the posts in FFG where someone said damage ought to be possibly rolled for when friendly ships bumped. I can't find any. It's possible I missed it.

I'm not a new player, but I certainly can see how a new player gets turned off by being piled on. This shouldn't be a place for that. But shoot back by all means... Tell me how lame and uninformed and less than you I am. I'm used to it on here.

By the way, if you want a lesson in how to respectfully reply, reread crabbok's replies.

Negroscurro ascoltami. I tried the previews of wave 5. Dash crew member and Dash pilot are not broken in the slightest. As a matter of fact, it Im of the opinion that Dash crew member is not worth 2 points, maybe 1. . Landing on asteroids hardly ever happens if you are good. If you are bad, or purposefully land on the asteroids, then it comes up a bit more, but its mitigated by the fact that half the time you are damaging your ship.

The second half of his ability is much more powerful than the first half. It means that Biggs hiding behind an asteroid at RB3 gets one less evade die. It means that any blocking huge ships will not give a +1 die defence advantage to those behind it (really hoses the EM Transmitter.)

As for the Outrider title, its really good, not necessarily with the HLC, especially with the new barrel roll rules.

With respect to dual YT1300, they are not that hard to beat, as you only have 2 shots of offensive output, and because of this you have to maximize it, so you need to slap 2 gunners on them, which reduces the amount of defensive tech you get. HLCs burn down YT1300 and Phantoms. Just you wait until people realize the true power of the TIE Defender.

Great reply, Zoccola! THAT'S what I'm talking about. Haha

I guess I don't understand how cards can break this game. In my experience, my kids "busy" fingers break this game more than anything else.

I guess I don't understand how cards can break this game. In my experience, my kids "busy" fingers break this game more than anything else.

Well, you see red, that "broken" is code for "I can't figure out how this card works, and it seems waaay powerful, and my fav list won't against it, and the sky is falling, WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA".

Seriously, people can't seem to understand that the initial impression they get from a card may not be exactly how the card works/will shake out.

Well, you see red, that "broken" is code for "I can't figure out how this card works, and it seems waaay powerful, and my fav list won't against it, and the sky is falling, WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA".

Seriously, people can't seem to understand that the initial impression they get from a card may not be exactly how the card works/will shake out.

Dude, give the guy a break. He merely expressed an opinion; no need to jump all over him for it. This is how things always are, so just cool it.

I've noticed that this forum is too quick to dismiss any concerns or criticisms about the game, often in a very condescending way. It's a little tiring.

Its not this card that is the problem. It is all the straw they keep adding to the camels back.

From turrets to dash to stay on target, they keep adding things to the game that take away from actual skill. The sky isnt falling because of 1 card. The sky is falling because post wave 5 meta will be over run by large base, turreted ships that can shoot through anything and completely dismiss the maneuver part of the game.

What skill will you need when you don't need to predict movement because you can use turrets as a crutch along with navigator + stay on target?

This game is being watered down big time. Its not hyperbole to see that. Squints will be none existent post wave 5. It just won't be worth the pts to use a ship that relies on movement when the entire meta is being built upon 360 turrets and not caring what you set your dial at.

Yet, at the same time the game gets new cards that prey on these crutches. I mentioned Outmaneuver before. This card relies on not being in your opponent's firing arc. If someone is using crutches to ignore the maneuver aspect of the game, cards with Outmaneuver will have an easier time getting a clear shot at that person.

For example, there is the still shiny new and effective Falcon + 3PO combo. Outmaneuver is a solid counter for that. Stay out of the Falcon's arc and you reduce its agility by 1. Now it isn't rolling any defence dice, and no defence dice being rolled means no 3PO.

Meanwhile on the epic front, we have cards that can do enjoyable things to ships with stress. And Stay on Target do gives your ship stress. Risky choice when near a Transport of Corvette with a slicer rig.

I do hope we'll get more cards that interact with opponent's stress tokens. It'd show just how much of a double-edged blade stress can be.

Well, you see red, that "broken" is code for "I can't figure out how this card works, and it seems waaay powerful, and my fav list won't against it, and the sky is falling, WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA".

Seriously, people can't seem to understand that the initial impression they get from a card may not be exactly how the card works/will shake out.

Dude, give the guy a break. He merely expressed an opinion; no need to jump all over him for it. This is how things always are, so just cool it.

I've noticed that this forum is too quick to dismiss any concerns or criticisms about the game, often in a very condescending way. It's a little tiring.

I find all the "sky is falling" posts tiring.

I absolutely dismiss the opinion of someone saying a card he hasn't played with, has broken the game. Just like ACD broke the game, right? Or 3PO? I remember people bitching that 2 actions on vader "breaks the game". So either everyone is playing a broken game that gets more broken with every new release, or these chicken little posts are WRONG. And dismissing WRONG information is a pretty good life tactic, I've found. But hey, we should just make everyone feel like their opinion is valid even in the face of factual evidence to the contrary, right?

I have to congrats FFG because of wave 5, it will add two new 360º ships, and this card:

Now a monkey, could roll dice and win a game.

There is no skill needed to play this game.

Nice.

If we consider that new tournament rules favor people with a double falcon squad... because they have better tchances oF not loosing a lot of points, so they usually get a very good tie breaking.

This is not a respectful post or a genuine criticism of the game. If and when they pop up, they are often met with 'did you actually do any research, because [insert math and rational thoughts] and then the thread either deteriorates into name calling, or the OP responds with something like 'Oh, I didn't see that before. Good point.' And life moves on.

Well, you see red, that "broken" is code for "I can't figure out how this card works, and it seems waaay powerful, and my fav list won't against it, and the sky is falling, WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA".

Seriously, people can't seem to understand that the initial impression they get from a card may not be exactly how the card works/will shake out.

Dude, give the guy a break. He merely expressed an opinion; no need to jump all over him for it. This is how things always are, so just cool it.

I've noticed that this forum is too quick to dismiss any concerns or criticisms about the game, often in a very condescending way. It's a little tiring.

I find all the "sky is falling" posts tiring.

I absolutely dismiss the opinion of someone saying a card he hasn't played with, has broken the game. Just like ACD broke the game, right? Or 3PO? I remember people bitching that 2 actions on vader "breaks the game". So either everyone is playing a broken game that gets more broken with every new release, or these chicken little posts are WRONG. And dismissing WRONG information is a pretty good life tactic, I've found. But hey, we should just make everyone feel like their opinion is valid even in the face of factual evidence to the contrary, right?

Regardless of whether or not something "breaks" the game, there are mechanics that players think will change the game in a way they don't like. I don't like C3PO and I understand why people expressed concern about it. It doesn't break the game, but I don't like what it does to the game, regardless of whether or not there's a counter for it. It's not always a question of "right" or "wrong".

Threads like this one aren't a waste of time like troll threads. It's an opportunity to have a vibrant discussion about balance, counters, and how new cards may affect the meta. OP's title is more alarmist than a lot of threads, but that doesn't justify being condescending to him/her. And it's not just alarmist threads that bring out condescending responses; there are a lot of instances where people present their concern as calmly as possible, but it still attracts people that don't handle game criticism well.

Negroscurro ascoltami. I tried the previews of wave 5. Dash crew member and Dash pilot are not broken in the slightest. As a matter of fact, it Im of the opinion that Dash crew member is not worth 2 points, maybe 1. . Landing on asteroids hardly ever happens if you are good. If you are bad, or purposefully land on the asteroids, then it comes up a bit more, but its mitigated by the fact that half the time you are damaging your ship.

The second half of his ability is much more powerful than the first half. It means that Biggs hiding behind an asteroid at RB3 gets one less evade die. It means that any blocking huge ships will not give a +1 die defence advantage to those behind it (really hoses the EM Transmitter.)

As for the Outrider title, its really good, not necessarily with the HLC, especially with the new barrel roll rules.

With respect to dual YT1300, they are not that hard to beat, as you only have 2 shots of offensive output, and because of this you have to maximize it, so you need to slap 2 gunners on them, which reduces the amount of defensive tech you get. HLCs burn down YT1300 and Phantoms. Just you wait until people realize the true power of the TIE Defender.

It is good to know that it is balanced, in fact I am not truly talking about umbalance but metagame. Metagame is moving in a way that xwings and ties are ships to forget.

Im a month and a half of wave 4, I saw no swarms... just phantoms and falcons. Some lambdas and Bwings with roark garnet and some players testing defender and z95.

I agree the second part of Dash Rendar card is more interesting than the first one.

Double Falcons are not hard to beat but people play it with gunners and exploit to the top the skill to reroll dice until they get 2 crits and 2 impacts and your tie blows up, one by one.

Defender is overcost, no use for me. I wil rather uise a firespray for that cost. Whisper is better than Soontir and conditions how to play your squad. If you dont put it down quickly it will blow your ships one by one. I think turn 1 white, 4 attack dice and 4 defense dice is a combination hard to beat and decloaking is wonderful to get positional advantage.

So the only way to fight against it efectively is through Han solo with veteran instincts. Thats why tables are full of falcons, and roark garnet giving 12 skill to beat whisper.

Threads like this one aren't a waste of time like troll threads. It's an opportunity to have a vibrant discussion about balance, counters, and how new cards may affect the meta. OP's title is more alarmist than a lot of threads, but that doesn't justify being condescending to him/her. And it's not just alarmist threads that bring out condescending responses; there are a lot of instances where people present their concern as calmly as possible, but it still attracts people that don't handle game criticism well.

What irks me about the OP's post is the implied insult to those who like the card. By calling the card something with which "even a monkey can win the game" he's indirectly calling everyone who likes the card a skill-les monkey. And people tend to react to insults with insults.

Might not have been intentional, but it goes to show that putting a little more thought in a post goes a long way.

Threads like this one aren't a waste of time like troll threads. It's an opportunity to have a vibrant discussion about balance, counters, and how new cards may affect the meta. OP's title is more alarmist than a lot of threads, but that doesn't justify being condescending to him/her. And it's not just alarmist threads that bring out condescending responses; there are a lot of instances where people present their concern as calmly as possible, but it still attracts people that don't handle game criticism well.

What irks me about the OP's post is the implied insult to those who like the card. By calling the card something with which "even a monkey can win the game" he's indirectly calling everyone who likes the card a skill-les monkey. And people tend to react to insults with insults.

Might not have been intentional, but it goes to show that putting a little more thought in a post goes a long way.

Well, you can give OP the benefit of the doubt, and assume they were using that as an expression of frustration, or you can assume OP's intending to insult everyone who likes the card. How people read into things is just as important.

I agree that OP could have worded the post more tactfully, but if people really feel that they're being insulting or trolling, they should just report the post for trolling and move on. If it is a troll post, then people are just making it worse by responding emotionally.

Regardless of whether or not something "breaks" the game, there are mechanics that players think will change the game in a way they don't like. I don't like C3PO and I understand why people expressed concern about it. It doesn't break the game, but I don't like what it does to the game, regardless of whether or not there's a counter for it. It's not always a question of "right" or "wrong".

Talking about what you don't like, and building a case for the reason, is perfectly fine with me. (Obviously I can't speak for anyone else.) But there's a big difference between saying this:

Upgrade X, in combination with either B or C, appears to do Y. I'm a bit worried about how this is going to affect the game going forward. Does the way I'm thinking about this problem make sense?

...and saying this:

Upgrade X is completely and obviously broken. You'll never be able to use A again, because B + X is now the only thing anyone will run. Congratulations on destroying the game, FFG.

The former is an explicit invitation to a conversation about X, and the latter is just a tantrum.

Threads like this one aren't a waste of time like troll threads. It's an opportunity to have a vibrant discussion about balance, counters, and how new cards may affect the meta.

As noted above, it's possible to have a thread that presents that opportunity, but this isn't one of them.

OP's title is more alarmist than a lot of threads, but that doesn't justify being condescending to him/her. And it's not just alarmist threads that bring out condescending responses; there are a lot of instances where people present their concern as calmly as possible, but it still attracts people that don't handle game criticism well.

The OP isn't alarmist, it's bitter and dismissive. Again, here's how it starts:

Now a monkey, could roll dice and win a game.

There is no skill needed to play this game.

Nice.

By implication, anyone who disagrees with the OP's position is a monkey, lacking in skill and interested only in mindless dice rolling. That's not how you start a constructive conversation. I'm totally open to criticism of the game (again, I can't speak for others), as long as that criticism is thoughtful, has some evidence behind it, and is itself open for discussion. But even a cursory look at the OP's posts here demonstrates that isn't at all what's going on.

As I said upthread, the actual source of his frustration is a list containing only Wave 2 elements dominating his metagame (a list which, incidentally, gets weaker if you include Dash). That demonstrates pretty conclusively that, whatever the strengths and weaknesses of the Dash crew card are, the OP isn't actually opening a debate about them--he's just mad in general, and this is the outrage du jour.

Well, you can give OP the benefit of the doubt, and assume they were using that as an expression of frustration, or you can assume OP's intending to insult everyone who likes the card.

Sorry but there's really only one way to read the OP.

As Vopral pointed out, there's plenty of other ways the OP could worded things, ways that aren't so massively insulting and dismissive. When someone starts a post the way the OP did, regardless of the validity of the point they're making. They don't deserve the benefit of a doubt, because there is frankly no doubt on the intentions behind the post.

In this case, not only was the OP highly inflammatory and borderline trolling, it was completely off base in the point it was making.

I just won a tournament with Rexler Brath and a TIE Mini swarm. I beat two lists using Falcons (one with Chewie and friends, one with Han and a z95 mini swarm.) I can certify in no way is the Defender over costed. Especially Brath. He is brutal. I landed 4 crits on Chewbaca with him.

You can never forget a 12 point academy tie. Its one of the premier blockers in the game. Blocked ships dont get actions, lack of action severely impacts how well a ship can shoot and defend itself.

I acknowledge that the current trend in the Regional results shows a dominance of Han Solo + Z95s and Whisper lists, but thats just the effect of a wave dropping in the middle of a tournament scene. I would be willing to bet good money, this time next year, the meta will be very different. I already think its starting to slowly creep away from spam PS1-2 builds. I see more PS3-6 builds, and higher quality pilots. Cards like Predator, Stay on Target and Outmanuever are adding value back to the EPT slot.

And meta is alive. Now its currently favouring Falcons and Phantoms because Phantoms are the new hotness, and a lot of people havent figured out how to fly against them, so they reach for the Falcon. As soon as the average player gets a grasp on dealing with a phantom the PS9 phantom bid will disappear and people will start building to counter the next hotness.

And then maybe, into all of this, there will be a third faction that has neither build (Falcons or Phantoms) available to it, but other really good stuff, and then it becomes a game of Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock.

I will respond in kind to a post. Hyperbole will get ridicule and derision. You want a decent conversation, state concerns in a non-hyperbolic way that actually encourages discussion.

Well, you can give OP the benefit of the doubt, and assume they were using that as an expression of frustration, or you can assume OP's intending to insult everyone who likes the card.

In this case, not only was the OP highly inflammatory and borderline trolling, it was completely off base in the point it was making.

If this is the case, then, again, the proper avenue is to report OP for trolling and move on. There's no point in wasting your time responding to it.

Well, you can give OP the benefit of the doubt, and assume they were using that as an expression of frustration, or you can assume OP's intending to insult everyone who likes the card.

In this case, not only was the OP highly inflammatory and borderline trolling, it was completely off base in the point it was making.

If this is the case, then, again, the proper avenue is to report OP for trolling and move on. There's no point in wasting your time responding to it.

(1) If D&D taught me anything, it's never to split the party. But if it taught me any two things... actually, that would be don't split the party and never get on a ship of any kind. But if D&D taught me three things, the third thing is that trolls can only be killed by flames.

(2) I actually don't think the OP is trolling. I think he's genuinely upset, and he may even think he's upset about Dash. That means there's a chance of changing his mind, although I've been around enough not to hold out a lot of hope.

(3) Even if there's no possibility of changing the OP's opinion, there's value to public pushback against the idea that Outrageous New Game Element can never fit into the game's framework. The better people understand what's coming down the pipe (taking into account NDAs, FFG's release and marketing schedules, etc.) the less poutrage we'll see on the forums and the more we can have of those constructive critical conversations you (and I!) both advocate.

I just won a tournament with Rexler Brath and a TIE Mini swarm. I beat two lists using Falcons (one with Chewie and friends, one with Han and a z95 mini swarm.) I can certify in no way is the Defender over costed. Especially Brath. He is brutal. I landed 4 crits on Chewbaca with him.

You can never forget a 12 point academy tie. Its one of the premier blockers in the game. Blocked ships dont get actions, lack of action severely impacts how well a ship can shoot and defend itself.

I acknowledge that the current trend in the Regional results shows a dominance of Han Solo + Z95s and Whisper lists, but thats just the effect of a wave dropping in the middle of a tournament scene. I would be willing to bet good money, this time next year, the meta will be very different. I already think its starting to slowly creep away from spam PS1-2 builds. I see more PS3-6 builds, and higher quality pilots. Cards like Predator, Stay on Target and Outmanuever are adding value back to the EPT slot.

And meta is alive. Now its currently favouring Falcons and Phantoms because Phantoms are the new hotness, and a lot of people havent figured out how to fly against them, so they reach for the Falcon. As soon as the average player gets a grasp on dealing with a phantom the PS9 phantom bid will disappear and people will start building to counter the next hotness.

And then maybe, into all of this, there will be a third faction that has neither build (Falcons or Phantoms) available to it, but other really good stuff, and then it becomes a game of Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock.

But what does this post have to do with OP's topic? Was it posted in the wrong thread or was it a piece of free-verse poetry?

I will respond in kind to a post.

Exactly. I've seen people trying to say that his place has become very negative, but I think that's simply not true.

Someone comes here asking for advice on a build, we give him the best advice we can. Someone has a rule question, even though it's clearly covered in the rules, and asked 1,000 times, we answer it kindly and respectfully for the 1,001th time. Most times with additional information about other rules or mechanics that may very well be the next question asked by the OP.

Someone asks for advice on what to buy next, we always answer with good advice, and a friendly tone, next to never "Google it, because it's been asked 10,000 times before!"

Any time someone starts a reasonably worded post about balance or game play, we have a reasonable discussion about balance and game play, we may not agree, and we'll offer reasons why, but we do it in a respectful and reasonable manner.

But when someone like the OP starts off a discussion saying the game is ruined and even a monkey can win. Or a intentional charged thread about how luck is all that matter. Or even a "Z-95's suck and if you disagree it's because you hate me!" the thread is not going to go anywhere positive.

Even the Huge Ships Suck (so far) thread which could of quite easily have gone very bad, was fairly upbeat and a reasonable discussion for the most part, at least what I read seemed to be.

(1) If D&D taught me anything, it's never to split the party. But if it taught me any two things... actually, that would be don't split the party and never get on a ship of any kind. But if D&D taught me three things, the third thing is that trolls can only be killed by flames.

Acid works too!

If this is the case, then, again, the proper avenue is to report OP for trolling and move on.

The mods don't come here often, in fact I doubt that they even have dedicated mods, just who ever at FFG has some time does it.

I don't report borderline trolling, I try a reasonable answer first and go from there. Also as VS pointed out, there is value in pointing out just how wrong someone is when they make a statement like the OP does, because maybe then other people will see the discussion and hopefully avoid even more posts like this.

Not everyone is just missunderstod, and no one has a right to spew venom at this community... We do however have the right to respond, because doing so may very well help keep the community here on the right track, rather then get worse. We for the most part have to police ourselves, and so we do just that.

I just won a tournament with Rexler Brath and a TIE Mini swarm. I beat two lists using Falcons (one with Chewie and friends, one with Han and a z95 mini swarm.) I can certify in no way is the Defender over costed. Especially Brath. He is brutal. I landed 4 crits on Chewbaca with him.

You can never forget a 12 point academy tie. Its one of the premier blockers in the game. Blocked ships dont get actions, lack of action severely impacts how well a ship can shoot and defend itself.

I acknowledge that the current trend in the Regional results shows a dominance of Han Solo + Z95s and Whisper lists, but thats just the effect of a wave dropping in the middle of a tournament scene. I would be willing to bet good money, this time next year, the meta will be very different. I already think its starting to slowly creep away from spam PS1-2 builds. I see more PS3-6 builds, and higher quality pilots. Cards like Predator, Stay on Target and Outmanuever are adding value back to the EPT slot.

And meta is alive. Now its currently favouring Falcons and Phantoms because Phantoms are the new hotness, and a lot of people havent figured out how to fly against them, so they reach for the Falcon. As soon as the average player gets a grasp on dealing with a phantom the PS9 phantom bid will disappear and people will start building to counter the next hotness.

And then maybe, into all of this, there will be a third faction that has neither build (Falcons or Phantoms) available to it, but other really good stuff, and then it becomes a game of Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock.

Congratulations on your most recent tournament win!

But what does this post have to do with OP's topic? Was it posted in the wrong thread or was it a piece of free-verse poetry?

Lol I told him Defenders with HLC are a counter to both Falcons and Phantoms. He said Defenders are overcosted.

But I will think of myself as a free form poet from now on! Thank you my good sir!

My reading comprehension is low! Also, I'm glad you see that as a compliment.