Whisper could easiliy take a whole swarm, one by one.

No it cannot. There are only 3 different paths, learn to block them.

Ahhhh.

So he isn't actually upset about Wave 5. He is actually upset with the affect Wave 4 has had. And doesn't realize that people still haven't moved on from the easy counter.

Seems like he's upset about the effect of Wave 2, doesn't it? I mean, it's not a particularly coherent discussion (landing on asteroids won't be a big deal because of Gunner, but the only actual list he proposes with Dash doesn't include Gunner...?) but it seems pretty clear that his local/regional/whatever metagame never really caught on to the ways Wave 3 made the double Falcon's life difficult.

I know how to run a swarm, It is my favourite squad, I won a LOT of championships with it, and I dont find it an easy thing to accomplish. Maybe you can teach me.

I have to congrats FFG because of wave 5, it will add two new 360º ships, and this card:



Now a monkey, could roll dice and win a game.
There is no skill needed to play this game.
Nice.

Challenge accepted. Lets meet on vassal sometime. Ill give your choice of player level. Would you rather play as the skill player, or the monkey? Given your hypothesis that a monkey can win, I take it you will be playing as the monkey, so you can show me just how broken my own card is against me. Yes?

Of course I won't accept that challenge of yours, it is a piece of cake to win someone knowing beforehand what he is going to field.

Anyway you didnt understand my point, I am sorry for my english, is not my mother language. What I am saying is that metagame is runinig this game and this card entize people playing double falcon, like whisper the two overpowered lists. I dont say those lists are instant wins but tend to be unbalanced.

Double falcons are boring and whisper is too good as it can win matches by itself after 1st and 2nd firing turns.

IN the other hand swarms are almost unplayable because of whisper, and it is sad since I think it is a beautiful list to play and requires an skilled player to do a good approach, maneuver in close distance, avoid asteroyds and block your opponent.

Now no one will field a swarm in nationals because of whisper and double falcons, just my guess. THey have gone form the top to the bottom of the metagame.

My concern is xwing are no longer good choices because a Bwing is better, now swarms are not good enough to play in champsionships as well.. the 2 more important ships of the game are barely used.

Whisper could easiliy take a whole swarm, one by one.

No it cannot. There are only 3 different paths, learn to block them.

Step 1: learn to block.

Step 2: Spread arcs out.

Focus Firing is preferable, but 1-2 shots is better than zero. Phantoms thrive on avoiding arcs. Make that impossible. Even an ACD Phantom folds to multiple attacks, it just may take 2-3 rounds.

FFG until this point has made a pretty fantastically balanced game. The TIE Advanced is still a little overcost, but they've fixed a lot of other stuff. But by all means, let's assume they'll totally screw up the game with one card. Life is over.

No. You can't have my ships.

Of course I won't accept that challenge of yours, it is a piece of cake to win someone knowing beforehand what he is going to field.

So Dash makes the game so easy that even a monkey could win with it, and it's also a piece of cake to play against it?

Yeesh, he's all over the place on this one.

I still don't understand his complaints about how it will make double falcon lists the most powerful lists in the game. He does realize they can only shoot twice a round, right?

Then when one falcon blows up, you're down to only firing once.

Honestly I wish more people would fly Double Falcons. It would make my TIE swarm the happiest kids on the block.

The guy who won the ohio regional beat 3 or 4 double falcon lists with just interceptors. But wasn't it thought it was impossible for little glass cannon interceptors who's aces pack was completely ruined by everything new in the game to beat the mighty falcons? 2 of the guys that flew them are legit and veeeery good players. The thing is that everything can be beaten. New cards means nee tactics coming out. So you can choose to fly the same squad over and over which is fine if you are flying it differently to counter the new cards or you can build new lists. Dear god there are some serious doom and gloomers here on the forum! The dash card is nice that he can take cover by the rocks but maybe try to set up some asteroids that doesnt give him great positions? Stay on target is nice but costs an action!

You ask people to not be disrespectful and yet in your openning post make the claim that on the sole basis of what we have seen of Wave 5 with no testing at all that the game is ruined? Complete with so dumbed down a monkey could do it reference?

You don't see how disrespectful that is to the people that create and test this game? Like Vorpal said this is a product of people time and energy, and in the case of the Dash upgrade comes from someone volunteering to try and make the game the best it can be.

ScottieATF, (alcohol, tobacco, firearms? Cool.)

All due respect,

I just want to point this out after having a "runaway" thread of my own. Granted, the OPer could have been a little more eloquent in his OP, but I guarantee that no one at FFG is so thin skinned as to feel offended on these blogs. They have probably gotten it with both barrels about many many things that were unwarranted over the past few releases. Their product will hold up to stronger criticism than this... and they know it. It's a GREAT game and if people were truly so upset about a rule or release, they would stop playing it and we would never hear from them. As is the case for Hollywood stars, any publicity is good publicity.

He didn't use vulgarity or call out a specific designer and bash his family. He didn't release emails and documents (Snowden like). He stated what looks like a somewhat unpopular opinion. Many on here will disagree just as passionately and some good discussion will be had regardless of which side you're on. I just think that FFG comes out smelling like a rose, either way. Interest in its product increased. People will look at the card in question and discuss its pros and cons. People will share (as they have) ways to counter.

I give him credit for sparking interest and debate. Let people vent. What does it cost us? And by the way, that's what these forums were created for. This would be a boring place if everyone approached it from a church-like "praise only" standpoint. I don't believe it's disrespectful and even if you argue it is, I certainly don't think FFG takes this kind of post personally. It helps them more than it hurts them.

I also doubt the people at FFG take it personally. I mean why would they. The OP has really zero basis for his initial assertions.

But for OP to start his thread of the way he did, hyperbolic title, doom prophecy, and monkey reference; and then talk about disrespect? That's very disingenuous. Venting isn't an excuse, he started the thread and had the ability to start it off on whatever foot he liked. He want with the half cocked game is ruined on the basis of zero actual testing foot. If he wants to go that route, fine his prerogative, but don't start the thread in the mud and wonder why you get a little dirty.

He could have aired his issues in a somewhat reasonable way, as you did, but he decided to take the pipe bomb route.

It not an issue of him complaining. It's the hyperbole.

It not an issue of him complaining. It's the hyperbole.

Hey man. I give respect to a person who uses hyperbole when English isn't his native language. He was passionate and said what he said in a foreign language!

I also doubt the people at FFG take it personally. I mean why would they. The OP has really zero basis for his initial assertions.

But for OP to start his thread of the way he did, hyperbolic title, doom prophecy, and monkey reference; and then talk about disrespect? That's very disingenuous. Venting isn't an excuse, he started the thread and had the ability to start it off on whatever foot he liked. He want with the half cocked game is ruined on the basis of zero actual testing foot. If he wants to go that route, fine his prerogative, but don't start the thread in the mud and wonder why you get a little dirty.

He could have aired his issues in a somewhat reasonable way, as you did, but he decided to take the pipe bomb route.

I felt I started my thread reasonably well, too. But I had a ton of people blast me for voicing my opinion. I guess my point was that it's waaaay easier to pile on and call someone stupid for their beliefs than it is to give an opinion on here.

I admitted he might have been a little more eloquent, but he was passionate. You (or someone) told him he was disrespectful to FFG. That has no bearing on what he thinks. He didn't make it personal.

Also, like I just told Sith, English isn't his native language, and when people realized this, they should give him somewhat of a break.

Look, I'm not trying to preach. I realize I am, but I respect you. I just wish more people were a little more understanding and tolerant of opinions. If anyone disagrees, do it through a well thought out reply and counter it. I just didn't think the "disrespectful to FFG" argument applied. I like reading his reasoning and the (intelligent) counters. I learn something from these when I get through the flames and mud. I just wish there was a little less of both.

Its not this card that is the problem. It is all the straw they keep adding to the camels back.

From turrets to dash to stay on target, they keep adding things to the game that take away from actual skill. The sky isnt falling because of 1 card. The sky is falling because post wave 5 meta will be over run by large base, turreted ships that can shoot through anything and completely dismiss the maneuver part of the game.

What skill will you need when you don't need to predict movement because you can use turrets as a crutch along with navigator + stay on target?

This game is being watered down big time. Its not hyperbole to see that. Squints will be none existent post wave 5. It just won't be worth the pts to use a ship that relies on movement when the entire meta is being built upon 360 turrets and not caring what you set your dial at.

I still don't understand his complaints about how it will make double falcon lists the most powerful lists in the game. He does realize they can only shoot twice a round, right?

Then when one falcon blows up, you're down to only firing once.

Honestly I wish more people would fly Double Falcons. It would make my TIE swarm the happiest kids on the block.

I faced a guy playing a double Falcon list at Imdaar Alpha. He looked very apologetic when putting his models on the table, but didn't do particularly well all things considered.

Personally, I think FFG should have made the Chewie/Han/Lando version of the YT-1300 unique - as in, you can only take one YT-1300 with the improved stats and only one of the unique YT-1300 pilots per list. But hey.

And now wave 5 announces a yt2400 with a title that allows to carry a HLC to be used a 360º weapon and this Dash Rendar, that eases a newbie to take a falcon and shoot thorugh asteroids, one of veterans choices for defense... in fact it allows to forget about asteroids, ok, you lose your action but gunnner will do the job and a damage is a low price for a surprising maneuver leaving your firing arc wihtout any target and exposed to the falcon.

There is a lot of advantage while running a falcon with this crew indeed there is no need of having much expertise to make the most of it.

I am not a troll, I am a 1st line player and I am upset, just that and I defend my arguments and I would like to see the game going in a different direction, you may take this or leave it, but avoid being disrespectul please, this is not my mother tongue and I doing an effort to explain my point to you.

I'm confused a bit here.

You appear to be suggesting that a new player will take the Falcon as it's "easier" to fly (which is very debatable with the large ship base), with Crew Dash. If they're new and flying a large ship, I would certainly expect them to be flying into asteroids nearly every turn - damage and action loss a-plenty! If a new player is building a tournament list and wants to take Chewbacca, with Crewman Dash and Gunner, by all means... please do it. I'll do my best to tear the Falcon apart with my ships after they make their one attack.

Crewman Dash still will lose an action and roll for damage if they overlap an asteroid. Pilot Dash ignores the asteroid for the damage and action denial, but still cannot attack. I fail to see how this is unfair. It's still only one attack per turn that Crewman Dash still allows. If potentially negating one defense die per turn makes the game suddenly "unplayable", I'm kind of confused about your local tournaments. If I ever play there, I'll be sure to use Rebel Captive and Sensor Jammer. I'd probably win everything.

If you take Pilot Dash, with the Outrider to equip the HLC, there's no point in using Gunner Crew - it doesn't work on that combo.

Beyond all that, your English is very good. Stop apologizing for it. It's much better than many native English speakers on here. It's your very unsupported argument we do entirely understand, not your grammar and syntax.

All due respect,

This is what people say right before they say something disrespectful.

I just want to point this out after having a "runaway" thread of my own...

With all due respect, your thread ran away from you because it reiterated a really common complaint from new players, and offered a transparently unbalanced "solution".

Granted, the OPer could have been a little more eloquent in his OP...

As his or her subsequent posts have demonstrated, it's not a problem of a lack of eloquence but of gaps in reasoning. He or she is certain that Dash Rendar is going to be a problem because it makes double Falcons too strong, despite the fact that double Falcons aren't particularly strong in the overall metagame, and that Dash doesn't actually contribute much to double Falcons.

...but I guarantee that no one at FFG is so thin skinned as to feel offended on these blogs. They have probably gotten it with both barrels about many many things that were unwarranted over the past few releases. Their product will hold up to stronger criticism than this... and they know it. It's a GREAT game and if people were truly so upset about a rule or release, they would stop playing it and we would never hear from them. As is the case for Hollywood stars, any publicity is good publicity.

People who produce work of any kind for public consumption get used to criticism. That doesn't mean that unadulterated vitriol is easy to swallow, particularly when--as they so often are around here--the bitter and dire pronouncements about the state of the game are unfounded.

Many on here will disagree just as passionately and some good discussion will be had regardless of which side you're on...

I give him credit for sparking interest and debate. Let people vent. What does it cost us? And by the way, that's what these forums were created for. This would be a boring place if everyone approached it from a church-like "praise only" standpoint. I don't believe it's disrespectful and even if you argue it is, I certainly don't think FFG takes this kind of post personally. It helps them more than it hurts them.

A debate is what happens when informed, thoughtful people disagree, and when that happens, it's always interesting (whether I end up participating or not). What usually happens on this board, though, is that someone makes a hyperbolic statement without backing or warrants, and--particularly on the Internet, where no one ever wants to be seen as backing down or changing a position--it's tough to start a real debate on that basis.

I'm not calling him stupid. Just rash, hyperbolic, a bit disingenuous, and a bit disjointed in his complaints on this one subject.

I am not saying that Dash Rendar breaks the game...

The title of the thread is "Wave 5, how to destroy the game".

...but the last deicisions taken by FFG points double falcon as overpowered list. So READ pleas, torunament points, whisper and Dash Rendar between other are things powering up double falcon squads.

But double Falcons are relatively easy to beat. Try BBXX, a swarm with Bombers, Jonus + Gamma + Gamma + escort, XXXZZZ, double Firespray + escort, Brath + mini swarm, um... should I keep going? I can work up some full lists if that would work better.

Would have double liked this if I could. I'll be happy to face Render in place of C3PO and Gunner and/or Gunner and Rec Spec on falcons. I mean, it's a decent, creative card that will present some interesting strategies, but those strategies have both a risk (paying two points to shoot on an asteroid costs the loss of an action and a 50% of taking a damage) and a cost (points and use of the crew slot), and it seems to me large ships without evade and/or focus are both sitting ducks and very overpriced guns.

I'm sane you are all insane and trying to steal my magic bag.

Sounds like another butt hurt player complaining because he can't just maneuver to avoid turret fire. If it were up to players like this turrets wouldn't exist at all and games would all be decided by who can maneuver best. Problem is this itransmission bad logic. Maneuvering is not just about dodhing firing arcs completely. It is about taking the position that will advantage you the best. Every turret released so far has a weakness that you can take advantage of.

The ion and blaster turrets have two weaknesses. The first is that they are only range 1-2. The second is that they are secondary weapons and thus do not get an extra attack die at range 1. Also HWK-290 only gets 2 agility while the Y-wing gets only 1. So you can easily perform a range 3 attack against either 1 and be too far out for the enemy to shoot back. Alternatively you can bum rush it for a range 1 attack with your primary weapon so that you can get the extra die while the opponent has to make due with their normal roll.

The YT-1300 uses a 360° primary attack which means it is going to be getting an extra die at range 1, but you will also get an extra die for your defense roll at range 3. You want to hit it hard? Volley off some long range secondary weapons at it. The thing only has 1 agility and it won't get an extra defense die from being at range 3 like you will. Not to mention most of it's HP is in hull so go for those crits.

The YT-2400 is going to have two main options. The HLC will be range 2-3 leaving it open for range 1 attacks and the auto blaster leaving it vulnerable at range 2-3.

Yes maneuvering is supposed to provide a tactical advantage, but it is only one of several game mechanics you need to master in order to win. The game is not meant to be won by maneuvering alone. Turrets are here to present an obstacle for players who rely too much on being able to out maneuver their opponent.

Every turret released so far has a weakness that you can take advantage of.

To be fair, the YT-1300 has a turret with 3 Attack and coverage at every range. Its only real weakness is that it's really expensive to acquire, which gives it inefficient offense (although still very effective).

Overall I think the problem is that so many people think of turrets as "ships you don't have to maneuver", when in fact you have to be very careful and intentional about your movement in order to get the best out of turrets.

Whisper could easiliy take a whole swarm, one by one.

A Howlrunner swarm that refuses to split, sure. But if the TIEs split you're looking at six to eight separate arcs to dodge.

As for maneuvering not mattering, you have to be good to make that Falcon dominate, dodging arcs all over the place, and that's hard with a large baser. Otherwise you'll die to any group of ships that can shoot more dice faster than you can.

This whole tirade is funny.

When I first looked at the Stay on Target and Dash cards....I too was disappointed.

...disappointed that there was no way for me to truly break the game and build a list that would stomp a mudhole in anything I ran into on the tabletop. I thought, "geez, if I would've gotten the honor of writing a card that sucker would've costed 10 points and been some crazy 'do this move, fire, then slap your opponent in the face...no really...slap him, hard!' ".

To me these cards are interesting, maybe useful, but I don't necessarily plan on building a list around them.

What do I know? I must suck at X-Wing.