After a less than successful mission H3 wherein I forgot to use the special ability of Soontir Fel,
I spent the whole weekend thinking about the Interceptor pilots and their special abilities and the new elite pilot talents and upgrades.
So I ended looking a Carnor Jax, Soontir Fel and Turr Phennir how seem to be the best of the best.
Anyway, Carnor Jax special ability denies enemy ships on range 1 the use of focus and evade; to try to combine this with opportunist which gives you 1 extra attack dice and 1 stress if the defender doe snot have focus or evade tokens sounds like a no-brainer for me.
However there are also other elite pilot talents which are nice and one point lower, like Push the limit, outmaneuver and predator which would also, at least on paper, be great for this pilot.
I see him as a flanker, rear-attacker, flying alone, so a possible list will need a centre, strong centre, to lure the enemy ships into attacking it so that Carnor Jax can get into position to deny them of focus and evade and hit them on the back or flank.
I started playing with the idea of one Lambda shuttle and one or two Tie bombers, but at the end I came with something like this:

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With Opportunist (cost 4):

Carnor Jax (26) - 33
Opportunist (4)
Stealth Device (3)

Omicron Group Pilot (21) - 34
Sensor Jammer (4)
Tactician (2)
Recon Specialist (3)
Engine Upgrade (4)

Omicron Group Pilot (21) - 32
Sensor Jammer (4)
Recon Specialist (3)
Engine Upgrade (4)

for a total of 99 points

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With Push the limits, predator or outmaneuver (each one is 3 points):

Carnor Jax/TIE Interceptor (26) - 32
Push the Limit (3)
Stealth Device (3)

2x Omicron Group Pilot (21) - 34 / 68
Sensor Jammer (4)
Tactician (2)
Recon Specialist (3)
Engine Upgrade (4)

For a total of 100 points

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On paper, both lists sound fine, I would say, but no so much experience with either Carnor Jax or the shuttles. Actually it will be a first time for both of them on our gaming table.
Any thoughts / ideas or suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Shuttles are tanky enough without the sensor jammer, but imo sensor jammer is an overpriced upgrade in the first place (since if they have a focus token it's 4 useless points. I would want to make those shuttles a threat to deal with, so instead of chasing the ints, they chase those tanky shuttles. Or better yet, you block with the shuttles and flank with the ints.

But as soon as they get out of the block your shuttles will take atleast 2 turns to turn around and keep up the fight. Even with the engine upgrade, I don't think you're going to have a fun time with them. It's best to try and keep them blocked for as long as possible.

To aid this I would reccomend:
(x2) Omicron + Fire Control System

As for your int. even with all those upgrades, 3 ships rolling ~9 dice (even with target locks, re-rolls, ect) you may not be putting the damage you need to be putting out in the early game.

I would maybe reccomend throwing in other attack ships, or stripping the upgrades down and doing this:

Carnor + Outmanuever

Turr Phenirr (vanilla)

That way you can fly these two together, and both can benefit from carnor's ability. But if it goes to hell Phennir can get fight his way out of any arc.

Shuttles are strong, and ints. are the best support I can think of for them. So I reccomend you try your builds, cause if they don't get you a win you will have fun watching them try to kill those shuttles.

Experience:

I usually fly a 3 shuttle + Phenirr build

Phantoms with jammers love Carnor Jax.

Carnor always seems to have a bullseye painted on him whenever I've seen him on the table! He's the first to be targeted, keep that in mind! I'm coming to realize if you field interceptors, they MUST have PTL!

Just two observations!

Carnor MUST have PTL. Push the limit is mandatory on every squint except Turr (with him it's VI). As for the other ships IMO Defenders would be better than space cows.

I don't know about Turr needing V.I. over PTL. You can move Turr then focus... attack, perform boost or barrel roll. PTL to perform boost or barrel roll. Giving him focus for attack and still managing to avoid firong arcs on most ships.

Experience:

I usually fly a 3 shuttle + Phenirr build

And I was thinking my use of two was already a bit to much

I got my inspiration for the shuttles from the article about them on the news page, there was an article called something like "in defense of the lambda shuttle". But I already found them having to many add-ons. I like your suggestion of Omicron + fire control system, it is only 23 points, Carnor Jax with opportunist are 30 points, this will be 46 points in two shuttles for a subtotal of 76 with Carnor, leaving 24 for an extra ship.

That would be a four ships list, maybe better than a three list.

Have to try something in that direction

I don't know about Turr needing V.I. over PTL. You can move Turr then focus... attack, perform boost or barrel roll. PTL to perform boost or barrel roll. Giving him focus for attack and still managing to avoid firong arcs on most ships.

Yes, he does because he needs to shoot first with his ability.

To aid this I would reccomend:

(x2) Omicron + Fire Control System

Experience:

I usually fly a 3 shuttle + Phenirr build

I just tried to reply to this but to no avail. Hope this time works.

I like your idea. The Omicron with fire control system is 23 points. Carnor jax with opportunist is 30, so in theory three shuttles plus Carnor Jax are 99 points. Nice !

A scimitar tie bomber are 16 plus 8 points for missiles, so Carnor, two shuttles and the bomber are 100 points. Sounds nice also.

Have to try something along those lines.

Thanks a lot for your answer.

I don't know about Turr needing V.I. over PTL. You can move Turr then focus... attack, perform boost or barrel roll. PTL to perform boost or barrel roll. Giving him focus for attack and still managing to avoid firong arcs on most ships.

For his ability to work properly, he needs to be able to shoot and scoot, hence he needs to shoot before everybody else. At PS 9 he is able to do that almost all the time, at PS7, not so much with the rise of high PS ships now! So VI is more important for him than PTL!

However, keeping ptl on him means he can still shoot before ps7 (if you have initiative) or lower, and vs higher he can still focus and evade as normal and give up the use of his ability for the turn. With ps10+ being used now to combat phantoms, ps 9 isn't as great as it used to be.

Turr wants PtL over VI because being able to trigger PtL off of the free boost or barrel roll action gives you better arc-dodging ability by opening up access to another action.

Being able to boost or barrel roll is not nearly as nice as being able to boost and barrel roll.

Alternatively, if arc dodging is impossible (as is frequently the case with turrets), PtL off of the boost or barrel roll from his ability can be used to supplement defense with a focus or evade token, which VI cannot give you.

With more high PS ships on the board comes fewer arcs to dodge, in which case adding a TC for the possibility to obtain focus+TL when flanking is nice. On the other hand, PtL can also grant you focus+evade for a more solid defense. Both of these, however, are triggering PtL before Turr's ability kicks in. At best (Captain Yorr or Wingman) you will not be able to trigger it again when his ability kicks in; at worst, you cannot use his ability's free action due to stress.

And with more high PS ships on the board, bumping PS 7 to PS 9 never guarantees you the first shot. You have to have won initiative-- in which case you're sacrificing his activation-phase arc-dodging skills-- and even then, VI on any PS 8+ ships will still beat you out, as will the ever-so-exotic Roark builds. And, albeit even more rarely, there's still the Pilot crit card that makes your PS be treated as 0. (To use crit cards as a counterpoint, PtL can also be crippled by them: a Pilot crit card keeps you from performing actions listed in your action bar, thus making the Interceptor essentially a piece of toast. This crit card, however, unlike the PS 0 crit card, is able to be resolved as an action.)

Discretion is the key to using PtL, on all Interceptors as a whole but especially so with Turr. This does not make it the worse option.

In summary, VI increases Turr's likelihood to shoot first and therefore trigger his ability more often, but at the expense of a number of double-action options including reducing his overall ability to arc-dodge.

And yet, VI can never guarantee Turr the first shot.

PtL is the better option if you can predict what kind of situation Turr is going to be in once the combat phase rolls around.

Turr wants PtL over VI because being able to trigger PtL off of the free boost or barrel roll action gives you better arc-dodging ability by opening up access to another action.

Being able to boost or barrel roll is not nearly as nice as being able to boost and barrel roll.

Alternatively, if arc dodging is impossible (as is frequently the case with turrets), PtL off of the boost or barrel roll from his ability can be used to supplement defense with a focus or evade token, which VI cannot give you.

With more high PS ships on the board comes fewer arcs to dodge, in which case adding a TC for the possibility to obtain focus+TL when flanking is nice. On the other hand, PtL can also grant you focus+evade for a more solid defense. Both of these, however, are triggering PtL before Turr's ability kicks in. At best (Captain Yorr or Wingman) you will not be able to trigger it again when his ability kicks in; at worst, you cannot use his ability's free action due to stress.

And with more high PS ships on the board, bumping PS 7 to PS 9 never guarantees you the first shot. You have to have won initiative-- in which case you're sacrificing his activation-phase arc-dodging skills-- and even then, VI on any PS 8+ ships will still beat you out, as will the ever-so-exotic Roark builds. And, albeit even more rarely, there's still the Pilot crit card that makes your PS be treated as 0. (To use crit cards as a counterpoint, PtL can also be crippled by them: a Pilot crit card keeps you from performing actions listed in your action bar, thus making the Interceptor essentially a piece of toast. This crit card, however, unlike the PS 0 crit card, is able to be resolved as an action.)

Discretion is the key to using PtL, on all Interceptors as a whole but especially so with Turr. This does not make it the worse option.

In summary, VI increases Turr's likelihood to shoot first and therefore trigger his ability more often, but at the expense of a number of double-action options including reducing his overall ability to arc-dodge.

And yet, VI can never guarantee Turr the first shot.

PtL is the better option if you can predict what kind of situation Turr is going to be in once the combat phase rolls around.

Hmm.. I usually don't like dealing with stress, it's stressful. But this may change my opinion, especially with the dial of a squint. I always took VI because my playgroup never goes the 10+ ps so it has just always worked well enough for me to keep it as it (VI is attractive as it is for 1 point).

I'd say preferably you should go with PtL, but if your really tight on points, I'd rather have those FCS's on the shuttles to make sure that they are a threat to be dealt with. This whole build is about making your opponent pick his targets, and bashing him with the other hand while he does it.

If he goes for the Ints, the shuttles block and make it hell while the ints fly into good positions. Plan ahead with your asteroid placement, and you can really get quite good maps where blocking is easy.

If he goes for the shuttles, you stall them and let them tank and hit hard with TL's while the ints fly around the flank and hit them up close and personal. Even if you lose a shuttle, it's 23 points. By the time he did 10 damage, my money is that you did 10 damage to costier ships and can win by points by the 60 or 90 min mark.

But this build is definitely a blast to play, except when you get 2 shuttles trying to turn in the corner of the map and you end up having to fly one off the map so the other one can actually turn

I suggest everyone at least try the space herd at least once and come up with a build you like!

Turr wants PtL over VI because being able to trigger PtL off of the free boost or barrel roll action gives you better arc-dodging ability by opening up access to another action.

Being able to boost or barrel roll is not nearly as nice as being able to boost and barrel roll.

Alternatively, if arc dodging is impossible (as is frequently the case with turrets), PtL off of the boost or barrel roll from his ability can be used to supplement defense with a focus or evade token, which VI cannot give you.

With more high PS ships on the board comes fewer arcs to dodge, in which case adding a TC for the possibility to obtain focus+TL when flanking is nice. On the other hand, PtL can also grant you focus+evade for a more solid defense. Both of these, however, are triggering PtL before Turr's ability kicks in. At best (Captain Yorr or Wingman) you will not be able to trigger it again when his ability kicks in; at worst, you cannot use his ability's free action due to stress.

And with more high PS ships on the board, bumping PS 7 to PS 9 never guarantees you the first shot. You have to have won initiative-- in which case you're sacrificing his activation-phase arc-dodging skills-- and even then, VI on any PS 8+ ships will still beat you out, as will the ever-so-exotic Roark builds. And, albeit even more rarely, there's still the Pilot crit card that makes your PS be treated as 0. (To use crit cards as a counterpoint, PtL can also be crippled by them: a Pilot crit card keeps you from performing actions listed in your action bar, thus making the Interceptor essentially a piece of toast. This crit card, however, unlike the PS 0 crit card, is able to be resolved as an action.)

Discretion is the key to using PtL, on all Interceptors as a whole but especially so with Turr. This does not make it the worse option.

In summary, VI increases Turr's likelihood to shoot first and therefore trigger his ability more often, but at the expense of a number of double-action options including reducing his overall ability to arc-dodge.

And yet, VI can never guarantee Turr the first shot.

PtL is the better option if you can predict what kind of situation Turr is going to be in once the combat phase rolls around.

If you didn't notice there's also a crit that makes you lose your EPTs. That's two crits that nullify PTL and only one that nullifies VI.

Imperial Aces was my first purchase in this game and Carnor Jax is among my favorite pilots. I don't see him played very often...but he definitely works on many lists.

Regarding the shuttles. I love the shuttles...if you are willing to either proxy of bite the bullet and pick up a Falcon you can add Engine Upgrades. The trick is to run with Advanced Sensors. With AS you boost(turn) and then pull a hard turn. Comes to about 130 degrees and that's almost a k-turn, in one round. Downside is you give up offensive capability because you are trading your FCS slot away for AS. It's no Falcon...but you're not spending 50 points either.

I usually prefer shuttles with Fire Control Systems and nothing else...but sometimes I'll throw in one with extra maneuverability and some other juicy target (like a Phantom or something with a HLC) as a flanker. My opponent then has the choice of going after a tanky ship that can actually maneuver fairly well or the flanker. A shuttle that can come around every turn is great at endgame. Especially you want a large ship that's fairly agile but don't quite have enough points for a Firespray.

With regards to PtL vs VI on Turr, it is in fact situational and list dependent, so I don't think its fair to say one is outright better than the other. It also depends on your local meta. In my area, I have found VI necessary simply because of the amount of high PS hitting table, especially in the last two months. Prior to that, I thought PtL was hands down better, but not so much now that there is a ton of PS 8+ around. Basically, if Turr is getting shot frequently (before he gets to shoot) you have to trigger PtL off his normal action to protect him and thus ignore his ability. At that point, he's basically an over-priced PS7 royal guard...

Also, I feel PtL does not increase his mobility at all (although it gives you the somewhat tanky focus + evade option, but not something Turr really wants to be doing). Rather it gives him the ability to use a focus offensively, which is nice (and something you cannot do as often with VI). With VI, you do 1 of boost/BR on his regular action, then complete the arc-dodge after shooting with the other boost/BR. Same mobility as with PtL. However, PtL lets you take a focus first (possibly use it on your shot), then arc-dodge with both boost & BR after shooting (but taking a stress too).

Another thing about VI is it has a corner case where you can use it to actually arc-dodge against Han Solo (not possible with PtL). You have to win initiative, Solo has to not have VI, and you have to be shooting at R3 (then use BR/Boost to get out of range after his shot). Granted, its very situational, so not something you can count on all the time, but worth thinking about...

I just want to point out that Carnor with Opportunist counters himself, or more readily, wastes 4 points on anything higher PS than himself, as those ships are likely to move and then focus/evade, then Carnor moves up and says they can't spend their tokens, making it impossible to hit them with opportunist's extra dice.

If you didn't notice there's also a crit that makes you lose your EPTs. That's two crits that nullify PTL and only one that nullifies VI.

The antiEPT crit also removes your pilot ability, so it's somewhat moot.

I love me some Jax.

As a different perspective to the less ships/bigger stuff lists you first posted, my Jax lis is/was (it won me a tourney and I retired it):

Howlrunner: Swarm Tactics

Carnor Jax: PTL and Stealth

4x Academy Ties.

Howlrunner buffs you in a tight formation while Jax de-buffs the enemy.

People hated it

I just want to point out that Carnor with Opportunist counters himself, or more readily, wastes 4 points on anything higher PS than himself, as those ships are likely to move and then focus/evade, then Carnor moves up and says they can't spend their tokens, making it impossible to hit them with opportunist's extra dice.

So, in which pilot would you put opportunist? Maybe a saber squadron? It would be 25 points. It could be a wingman for Carnot and benefit, maybe, of its ability.

What do you think?

I think you mean pilots with lower pilot skill than him, but I got your point. Very valid, by the way.

So, in which pilot would you put opportunist? Maybe a saber squadron? It would be 25 points. It could be a wingman for Carnot and benefit, maybe, of its ability.

What do you think?

Opportunist on any pilot in the same squad as Jax is counter-intuitive. Lets say you put it on a sabre pilot or a black squadron pilot (2 most likely candidates for Empire). Once you get Jax into R1, you've shut down your opponent's use of focus/evade tokens, but since most enemy ships will move before Jax, they still get to take their action (unless you block them) and so they take their focus or evade token, and then when Jax moves back into R1, they can no longer spend it, even if they wanted to, thus entirely negating your ability to make use of Opportunist. So they are totally not synergistic at all...

I was really really excited to try and play 2 shuttles also. but i feel like its just NOT worth it. even with the engine upgrade, you get caught out of position too much, and thats 2/3s of your list.

I would play 1 tacgunner shuttle and two interceptors. carnor and soontir.

My list was reduced to two shuttles instead of three as we do not have so many (yet)

It was a very funny game

Predator

I was playing against Ariano, so I can also add a couple notes about the Z-95s... They seem very fragile once you let your missiles go, so they seem a bit pricey. Still, it's the first time I play with them, so too early to give a final judgement...

On the other hand, I loved the combo Arien Cracken-Dutch Vander, as you can have both of them obtaining a Target Lock+Focus almost every turn. I used Arien's ability mostly on the other Z-95s though. I used the combo during the last part of the scenario to ionize Carnor Jax (Target Lock+Focus with Ion Turret is difficult to block, even with a lot of Dodge dice).

As for the dogfight, my movement feint worked, though it helped that Ariano did not keep his ships closer to each other and this, I think, should be a number one priority in this game: you need to always be able to support each of your ships with the others, so that you are not attacked piecemeal by the enemy... Ariano's list looked very scary, but we did not get to see its full potential due to the early outmaneuvering.

Here you can find the battlereport and some pictures of the confrontation (http://xwingeleventhhour.blogspot.nl/2014/08/dogfight-shuttles-vs-z-95s.html?m=1)

I tried also this week the alternative list with one shuttle and two bombers which I posted just above against a Rebel list based on Kyle Katarn, Horton Salm and Biggs full of upgrades. It was also very funny and this time I won. The Rebel player tried to play hide and seek with Carnor and neither the X-wing nor the Y-wing can even think of beign more maneovrable than an intercptor