So this combo has gone to some debate, however a question came up I am asking you guys.

if you use navigator to turn your 2 bank to a 2 forward it becomes red, if you then use navigator to turn the 2 forward to say 4 forward would the maneuver retain the red restriction or stay its normal color? If it retains the movement restriction that means you would have to use navigator first since you cannot choose a red maneuver.

The only restriction on Navigator is that you cannot perform a red manouver if you have a stress token and since you don't get the stress until after you've performed the red manouver I think you can use stay on target and navigator in that order.

That is the question. I hope it's not red but I was wrong about advanced sensors and cloaking so what do I know?

Well, it was the right ruling I guess... But ruined a balanced and viable option for the phantom...anything but Adv cloak would be a good option.

So this combo has gone to some debate, however a question came up I am asking you guys.

if you use navigator to turn your 2 bank to a 2 forward it becomes red, if you then use navigator to turn the 2 forward to say 4 forward would the maneuver retain the red restriction or stay its normal color? If it retains the movement restriction that means you would have to use navigator first since you cannot choose a red maneuver.

From my memory of the cards, yes that would be correct. However I fully expect it to be FaQ'ed to be otherwise. Either way, it isn't released yet so they have time to sort it out in an FaQ still before it becomes an issue.

That is the question. I hope it's not red but I was wrong about advanced sensors and cloaking so what do I know?

Well, it was the right ruling I guess... But ruined a balanced and viable option for the phantom...anything but Adv cloak would be a good option.

I was wrong about advanced sensors and cloak as well, but that was more gaming the vagueness of activation phases. With Navigator and stay on target work the same way Fett and Navigator work, so we have more precedent to be confident on this one.

That is the question. I hope it's not red but I was wrong about advanced sensors and cloaking so what do I know?

Well, it was the right ruling I guess... But ruined a balanced and viable option for the phantom...anything but Adv cloak would be a good option.

I was wrong about advanced sensors and cloak as well, but that was more gaming the vagueness of activation phases. With Navigator and stay on target work the same way Fett and Navigator work, so we have more precedent to be confident on this one.

Well the issue with Fett is that no banks are red, even with criticals. I do agree that since the wording seems to be precise on the card that we can be pretty confident about our conclusions.

Looking at the FAQ entry for Fett, it appears there's no timing issue with Navigator and Fett. If Fett chooses a bank, both cards work at the same time. There doesn't appear to be a case of one before the other.

With SoT and Nav, I'd assume they would work in a similar fashion, but leave you with a red maneuver at the end of it all. SoT makes the maneuver red and Nav doesn't mention any change to that status. If you have no stress tokens, it doesn't matter about order, as the restriction on Nav doesn't kick in.

So is the census here that navigator after SoT is considered a white move?

If so to me that doesn't seem right.

I don't see any reason why you couldn't use both together. If you use SoT, then the maneuver (whatever it ends up being) would be red though.

OT: does Stay on Target seem like a really weird name for the ability? I mean "stay on target" was uttered on an attack run down the trench of the death star--where anything but a straight maneuver would mean certain death.

I just imagine Vader pursuing an X-wing down the trench and considering veering sharply into the wall, then thinking "No...I guess I should stay on target and shoot this guy." Then he gets stressed out when thinking about just how close he came to committing suicide.

Cool ability and cool name, just an odd combination of the two...

As of right now it works. Expect FFG to errata/FAQ SOT to make all of your maneuvers red, if they don't change it before the card is officially released.

OT: does Stay on Target seem like a really weird name for the ability? I mean "stay on target" was uttered on an attack run down the trench of the death star--where anything but a straight maneuver would mean certain death.

It makes sense if you think about it as getting tunnel vision on a single target and pursuing them even at the cost of difficult maneuvering (and stress tokens), since that's how it's probably going to be used most of the time. It's kind of reaching I guess, but I suspect that a 100% fluff-accurate EPT would have been a lot less useful.

I don't see any reason why you couldn't use both together. If you use SoT, then the maneuver (whatever it ends up being) would be red though.

SoT makes the maneuver that you change to red, let's say for instance it's a three speed maneuver and I change to a 3 bank. From there I can use navigator to change the speed to a 1 bank which is a green maneuver on my dial. The three bank would be red if I choose to stick to it, because of SoT but the other speed maneuvers on the dial would be as they are normally if I use navigator to modify it.

Rules wise it's abusive and a loophole that needs to be closed.

Looking at the FAQ entry for Fett, it appears there's no timing issue with Navigator and Fett. If Fett chooses a bank, both cards work at the same time. There doesn't appear to be a case of one before the other.

With SoT and Nav, I'd assume they would work in a similar fashion, but leave you with a red maneuver at the end of it all. SoT makes the maneuver red and Nav doesn't mention any change to that status. If you have no stress tokens, it doesn't matter about order, as the restriction on Nav doesn't kick in.

There is nothing indicating that SOT turns your entire dial red, just the maneuver you change to. In fact is specifically says "that' maneuver. Navigator changes "that" maneuver to a different maneuver, which is whatever color it happens to be on the dial. Again, it specifically says "that maneuver" is red, nothing else.

For example, I could have a navigator in a shuttle, reveal a 3 bank, which is red. Then navigator it to a 1 bank, which is green. There is nothing on navigator that says the red travels with it.

I sent an email to FFG asking about this when Stay on Target came out. There's been no reply, which either means something went wrong or they were internally alerted to the potential broken combo.

The best explanation I've seen is this:

Both trigger on "When you reveal your maneuver dial", so they're both triggering off of the revealed maneuver. Say you set your dial to 3 straight. You use Stay on Target to change to 3 bank, that goes red. Then Navigator activates. It also says "When you reveal your maneuver dial you may rotate your maneuver to another maneuver of the same bearing." It's the same trigger. You're rotating it to another maneuver of the same bearing to your 3 straight (what was on your dial when Navigator triggered), not the 3 bank you switched to with Stay on Target. Basically, using them in conjuction is useless.

Combo unbroken, Fett weakened further.

The one issue with this explanation is the FAQ precedent saying Fettigator works, so I'm not sure how FFG are going to handle it. But they will: I can't see them leaving something as broken as Navigator On Target in the game.

There's still something that's not quite gelling here. You use SoT and earn yourself a stress inducing red maneuver. Makes sense as you're trying to stay on the target by doing some tricky extra maneuvering outside of the planning phase. But leaning over to the Navigator, and telling him "let's go the other way instead and speed up while we're at it", and that makes it less stressful.

That's a lot of changing the plan, on the fly, with no penalty. Definitely seems like a loophole.

It will be interesting to see how this one flies.

@Lagomorphia

Sometimes they won't give you an answer until the card is officially released. So I guess we'll have to wait until the YT-2400 comes out.

I don't see any reason why you couldn't use both together. If you use SoT, then the maneuver (whatever it ends up being) would be red though.

OT: does Stay on Target seem like a really weird name for the ability? I mean "stay on target" was uttered on an attack run down the trench of the death star--where anything but a straight maneuver would mean certain death.

I just imagine Vader pursuing an X-wing down the trench and considering veering sharply into the wall, then thinking "No...I guess I should stay on target and shoot this guy." Then he gets stressed out when thinking about just how close he came to committing suicide.

Cool ability and cool name, just an odd combination of the two...

You're not the first person to bring this up. The situation in the movie that it comes from does raise a question, but functionally, it really makes perfect sense. You stay on target by keeping the enemy ship in your sights, and therefore must occasionally change your maneuver to keep the enemy in front of you.

I don't find this to be a loophole at all, in fact I find it to be a great counter to Han with Engine Upgrade or phantoms. Sure it pretty much opens up your entire dial but with the large base size you have to stay clear of roids or other collisions to get your actions/shots at the end of the day.

I sent an email to FFG asking about this when Stay on Target came out. There's been no reply, which either means something went wrong or they were internally alerted to the potential broken combo.

The best explanation I've seen is this:

Both trigger on "When you reveal your maneuver dial", so they're both triggering off of the revealed maneuver. Say you set your dial to 3 straight. You use Stay on Target to change to 3 bank, that goes red. Then Navigator activates. It also says "When you reveal your maneuver dial you may rotate your maneuver to another maneuver of the same bearing." It's the same trigger. You're rotating it to another maneuver of the same bearing to your 3 straight (what was on your dial when Navigator triggered), not the 3 bank you switched to with Stay on Target. Basically, using them in conjuction is useless.

Combo unbroken, Fett weakened further.

The one issue with this explanation is the FAQ precedent saying Fettigator works, so I'm not sure how FFG are going to handle it. But they will: I can't see them leaving something as broken as Navigator On Target in the game.

For simultaneous events, you get to choose the order in which they occur. Same situation as Gunner + FCS.

There's still something that's not quite gelling here. You use SoT and earn yourself a stress inducing red maneuver. Makes sense as you're trying to stay on the target by doing some tricky extra maneuvering outside of the planning phase. But leaning over to the Navigator, and telling him "let's go the other way instead and speed up while we're at it", and that makes it less stressful.

That's a lot of changing the plan, on the fly, with no penalty. Definitely seems like a loophole.

It will be interesting to see how this one flies.

@Lagomorphia

Sometimes they won't give you an answer until the card is officially released. So I guess we'll have to wait until the YT-2400 comes out.

totally agree.. I think it should retain the stress.

Now since the question got asked, hopefully they make a small errata to the card, maybe add something like. Retain Stress through end phase.. ?? I don't know, but something to indicate you keep the stress. I like the combo with this though, just seems easy to use with the loss of the stress. If you keep it then you really wanna think it through, or don't use the combo, just one or the other.

There's still something that's not quite gelling here. You use SoT and earn yourself a stress inducing red maneuver. Makes sense as you're trying to stay on the target by doing some tricky extra maneuvering outside of the planning phase. But leaning over to the Navigator, and telling him "let's go the other way instead and speed up while we're at it", and that makes it less stressful.

That's a lot of changing the plan, on the fly, with no penalty. Definitely seems like a loophole.

It will be interesting to see how this one flies.

@Lagomorphia

Sometimes they won't give you an answer until the card is officially released. So I guess we'll have to wait until the YT-2400 comes out.

So, you're arguing that navigator should always maintain red maneuvers?

If this was going to carry stress through they would have just said "receive a stress token"

I don't find this to be a loophole at all, in fact I find it to be a great counter to Han with Engine Upgrade or phantoms. Sure it pretty much opens up your entire dial but with the large base size you have to stay clear of roids or other collisions to get your actions/shots at the end of the day.

The clear intention is that if you use Stay on Target your maneuver will be red, it's absolutely abusing a loophole to then use navigator to get rid of the red.

Even if you think it's sounds like a great ability to have it doesn't change the fact that it's abusing a loophole that wasn't intended.

totally agree.. I think it should retain the stress.

There is no stress to retain, as you haven't performed a manoeuvre yet.

I think the best way to solve this is to change the card text to say "You're manoeuvre this turn counts as red" or similar. So it doesn't matter what your final manoeuvre is it will still count as red.

Fine fine, but it says you may rotate your dial to another move and treat it as a red maneuver, which basically means take a stress and no action, semantics really

I agree with your solution though, kinda what I was trying to get at and obviously failed.. lol

Technically you start the Activation Phase by choosing your ship and revealing your dial, then you change your mind about what you planned by using Stay on Target which is now gives you a red maneuver, then you change again with Navigator, to something that might not be a red maneuver.

Normally a red will give you a stress token, but we haven't reached the Check Stress step yet, so the SoT red is ignored, and the latest choice is the only one that counts. That's the logical, rules-based way it should work.

What I'm saying is that's an awful lot of changes for no penalty. I'm wondering if they will maybe restrict Stay on Target and Navigator the way they have with Advanced Sensors and Decloaking. I doubt it.

I'm wondering if they will maybe restrict Stay on Target and Navigator the way they have with Advanced Sensors and Decloaking. I doubt it.

I hope not, because that would be changing way more than they need to change. The correct solution is to change SOT to say "all maneuvers this turn are red" so that you can still benefit from navigator's improved choices but can't use it to avoid the intended cost of having to execute a red maneuver.

And advanced sensors + cloak didn't restrict anything, it just clarified something that was already true for the people who didn't want to accept it.