this is the point... sometimes nobody want to go to CoC cause his play is finished there, it's impossible to grow, it's a so bad thing. A end based on time or on turns is necessary surely

Jimsan Ixata Centarus said:

Well... if you can go to the COC, then it's useless to stay on the board and level up further..

it's no need to grow then...

And if the other player is also ready, then it will surely end with a pvp fight on the crown

if not, then the weakest player can try to make himself stronger, but if he is only healing and healing, then he must find a other way if he want to win the game.

If a stalemate cannot be evaded, then so be it.... ( it's a draw then..

But in my opinion. it's a little childlish if people are looking for a draw because they don't want to give up..

Velhart said:

The problem is that it's not just that "they don't wanting to give up" in my family's experience, the "stragglers" actually have a very good chance of winning .

I've done it many times myself it doesn't matter how low level you are; If you have a stable hack for healing, you just level up, level up, level up, get cool item after cool item after cool item, and 1-2 hours later, you are completely dominating the other player who's been waiting in the Crown of Command.

It's so bad that often, when we see that the game is at a certain "threshold" (Runesword out, or Clockwork Owl or Totem Staff out, Magic Carpet out, high strength all around, high craft all around, Healer, ...) basically, nobody wants to get to the Crown of Command because, whoever is there, is going to be the loser . At that point, it's no challenge at all getting to the Crown of Command; It's just that no one wants to go there.

"Shouldn't this be avoided? If you can get to the Crown of Command quickly, then other characters will die swiftly..."

Yes, yes, in theory, and some times in practice...

But : It is very easy for a character to get strong enough for the Crown of Command (str 5, craft 8 say, w/ fate) and by chance and circumstance not even be able to get into the middle region .

Realize, you've only got something like a 10-15 turn window to do this in beyond that, and at least one other will reach the basics of functional immortality.

So you try and persuade the boatman to let him cross, or find a raft salesman, or hustle an axe and get to the woods meanwhile, everyone's leveling up, uncovering the Runesword, delving into the depths of the dungeon ... It isn't hard at all to beat the Lord of Darkness at midgame.

...so by the time you get the Crown of Command, the other players are immortal highlanders Which makes you the loser..!

So when you reach that situation, what do you do?

The "logical" thing so often is to run out the strength cones before anyone else... Get all the key objects (including key dungeon treasures)... It is very tempting.

I don't like house rules, especially regarding the end-game, but the two I've heard that make sense to me are: (1) deny all healing, once someone reaches the Crown of Command, [talismanisland's proposal,] or (2) a player at the Crown of Command is winner if no one else is in the inner region for 1 whole completed round of turns. [JCHendee's proposal.]

I don't like the Sudden Death proposal , because it penalizes the character on the Crown of Command all other players will have been leveling up for much longer. (While you are fating the sentinel and the door, repeat attempting the mine, the crypt, dicing with death, or fighting pit fiends, other players are leveling up, getting objects, ...) In my experience, players who raced to the Crown of Command are weaker than the player's around them, who decided to level, level, level instead of race, race, race.

Whatever you decide as optional rules, make sure you're with like minded people though. Once, my wife had a poltergeist, the rune-sword, and one of the cards that allowed her to discard unwanted drawn adventure cards (I forget the name). So she was powering up, hitting the chapel, having easily like 10+ lives while one of the "rushers" went straight to the CoC. One of of our ex-players (and yeah, I spoiled the ending) was in CoC and couldn't touch my wife's character though the rest of us went down.

So she started calling my wife a "cheater". You don't know my wife, but, that's... just... asking to be killed. I mean YOU, not your Character.

"Did I print out fake copies of the cards?" "Um, no."

"Did I pretend to roll my dice, and then reroll what I really wanted at any point of the game?" "Um, no."

"Did I ignore instructions on a card or a space?" "Um, no."

"Does it say anywhere that my combinations are 'loopholes' but your combinations are legit?" "Um, no."

"Game of Life can be a tie (Same money). Milles Bornes (a french card game) can be a tie (Same points). Is there some reason that a tie in Talisman is aberrant and unacceptable?" "Um, no."

"Can you show me ANYWHERE in the game that I have to 'rush' when you do instead of charging when I'm good and ready?" "Um, no, but it's still cheating."

"Get out!" (Obviously, we host the location, and the game itself)

She never came back (course, she was a friend of a friend, so no loss there, heh; Yeah, I know, I never liked her to start, boo hoo) . Most of my group actually are levellers. The one remaining rusher brings the food, and doesn't mind being pounded by the rest of us as soon as he hits the middle region or far in the Dungeon (i.e. sniffing for the CoC). And, well, he's lovable but stubborn.

All that anecdote to say, if you start making rules to further push for a fast game, that's all well and good. But, people that don't like that will either debate (hopefully, more nicely than our ex-acquaintance), or, bluntly, will rather skip Talisman and ask for a movie / beer / poker / something else to do that night.

With complete and total respect to Dam, from what I hear of his/her games, me, my wife, and most of our friends would never join. The styles don’t work. Either Dam and his/her friends will get frustrated, or we will. And no point playing if there’s not fun. If people like to level, any homemade rules that stop it will decrease interest. And vice versa for rushers (or racers if you prefer).

Everyone knows we plays “Talisman Extended Edition” (i.e. we take our own sweet time to get to CoC). And, there are tons of house rules to help that. If you’re a rusher, or even someone that plays normally, our style is too slow. We make sure anyone knows ahead of time we don't play standard Talisman so that they aren't surprised if they know about the game, or played it before.

Also remember that when you start calling Poltergeist + Chapel a “glitch” or a “loophole”, you’re basically calling the other person a cheater, and, well, that never ends well. Does NOT mean at all you have to “stay” with the official rules. Don’t like the CoC ending? Make it the Scepter and Crown alternate ending every time (which is the most unpopular ending among our friends), and voila. It’s your game. But know your audience. If people like to level or take their time, this alternate ending or similar home rules may make them bail / lose interest, and then you have to decide what’s more important… losing a few players, or sucking up the occasional Tie.

Thinking ahead will avoid arguments / bad feelings. And, well, playing a game should be about fun, not arguments.

Oh, and never call my wife a cheater, heh.

LionKimbro said:

I agree, that it's very boring if one player is on the COC and other characters are trying to grow stronger.

But it's still difficult to stay alive on the mainboard while a player is on the COC.

But off course, it;s indeed possible, that characters can survive because of healing, and trying to level up further.

This makes it boring indeed ( for the player who is on the COC.

It;s good that we get the Crown and Scepter with the Frostmarch expansion.

This will put a end to the healing debate..

Velhart said:

First, I don't think it's low to push a draw instead of giving up. In chess this is called strategy - a shrewd player (who's in the lead) will be careful to Checkmate without stalemating. A tough opponent will make that difficult or impossible.

I say you shouldn't enter the CoC in the first place if an oponnent has one of these items (or is about to draw one). In that case you're simply not a position to try for the win. Turn back at the Valley Of Fire if you have to! If somebody happens to luck into this combo after you've reached the CoC but before you kill them, they get their draw (or possibly win). Good game, take your licks and be a good sport. It shouldn't happen much if you're careful.

Velhart said:

I think the ending is boring if the other characters don't have a chance to grow stronger and possibly catch you. I creates tension and puts everyone under pressure if the others still have a chance.

As for Crown & Scepter, if you play with the hidden ending (including the web based freebies) there is only a one in four chance of drawing the standard CoC. In this case establishing perpetual healing is an unreliable strategy. This should prevent anyone from aiming for this in advance, except as a back up strategy or when it's their only chance.

crimhead said:

Is it?!

I just finished another family game my daughter (Assassin, then Dwarf,) myself (Swashbuckler,) and Amber (Amazon, then Druid.)

When Amber was the druid, she got the magic carpet fairly quickly. As soon as the Druid (or another good character,) gets the magic carpet, you are basically assured a never-ending end-game scenario . All you need is a 6 on the dice, and you heal up to max; Not to mention the healer, the village healer, the city doctor, or naturally rolling the church. The outer region, and in particular the spaces between the village and the city through the church, practically grant immortality.

I had 9 craft, 9 strength, (but no fate after a failed first attempt,) and went for the crown of command several times. While I was going for the crown, Amber , thoroughly predictably, went into the dungeon, (rolled a 6 to jump to the Lord of Darkness,) and got the bag of holding, leveling up the entire time. With the bag of holding, and our daughter out of the game, it was over. I used the Command Spell, but she just went to the church whenever she lost a single life. Then she jumped to the ruins, into the dungeon, came out with the Staff. She had about 4 or 5 trophies, equating to 8-10 more lives on top of 4, with more coming in every turn.

I conceded the game there is zero chance of winning at this point.

This just further reinforces that whoever goes to the Crown of Command is the chump .

I will never play a game for the Crown of Command, without an amending rule (no healing, or "if no one else is in the inner region for a turn, the crown of command wins") a leveler will beat them every time .

From here on out, I'm a leveler and object acquirer, even though the game cannot end unless someone will go to the crown of command.

LionKimbro said:

Don't know about your games, but I know I'd have bumped the Druid over the head, taken the Carpet before heading for the Crown. Maybe even Alchemied it before heading up, just in case of Acquisition.

And I from experience, sometimes the dice just don't go your way, even with Fate you might not land in a healing location.

LionKimbro said:

Only if Sombody has easy access to healing though. If you stepped into the CoC when the druid already had the carpet, maybe you were playing ther chump. You should have stayed outside to fight her or otherwise break her combo.

If the druid grabbed the carpet after you enetered CoC, that's just tough luck - you can't win them all. But if she was on her way to LoD (and you play she can chose her treasure - ie the Clockwork Owl), then you shouldn't have gone in yet.

CoC is not just a race to the centre! It's an interactive ending and you have to pay attention to the other characters. Otherwise you play the chump.

Then of course if the Druid was much stronger than you, you made the right play. She can only heal one in six turns (on average) and you'll take an average of three lives in those six turns. You only need to be a little lucky to kill her. If you think you stand to lose the long game, go to the CoC and try to get lucky. But don't complain if you lose! Remember you were already losing but trying to fluke out. If you weren't already losing you made a bad play, throwing away your advantage.

It's all a matter of tastes. If you prefer a non interactive race to the finish, that's fine. That's what Blood Bath, Crown & Scepter or the Warlock Quests variant is for (or any house rules you like).

Incidentally, perpetual healing is rare, escepicially if you look out for it before entering the CoC. What's more common is for a player to heal once or twice, hoping to buy just enough time to get to the centre and fight you for it. Sometimes they die just short of reaching you, other times they catch you and some of those times they kill you. These are dynamic endings which keep you on the edge of your seat as your fate hinges on the roll of the Command die. Different tastes for different gamers - that's why we have variants.

I am happy we get Crown and Scepter.

This will end the game soon. No healing, and maybe no pvp or you must be lucky to survive

Crown of Command, will never be played again ! worthless ending ever

I'm glad we have C&S too, but I only only want to play with hidden endings from now on (including Danse Macabre and Crown Of Command in the mix). Of course I'll happily play Warlock Quests or other forthcoming endings which aren't meant for the hidden variant.