Sort of off topic, I really think the collision rules were poorly thought out. Ramming isn't OP, but it is incredibly efficient and something to strive for. Fans of the movies know how a Star Destroyer was taken out because of a collision with a single A-Wing. In this game, though, a CR90 (many magnitudes smaller) can statistically survive a collision with 8 TIE Fighters and 3 Lambdas, probably more. Moreover, ramming something is just about the most efficient way in the entire game to destroy something. Again, not OP, but I think there is something wrong when the game incentivises Huge ships to get into collisions rather than to avoid them!

We also see small ships smashing into the big ships and the big ships not even noticing the blow several times during Endor.

To be fair, this was a star destroyer with its bridge shields down, and the a-wing smashed directly into the bridge windows. And even then it didn't really damage the ship very much, the death of the bridge crew just disrupted the chain of command long enough for it to drop out of formation and get pulled into the death star's gravity. In open space with no death stars or planets to ram it would have been a minor annoyance at best.

Right, I probably could have worded it differently. Certainly a Star Destroyer should be able to withstand a lot of impacts. I only meant to illustrate the idea that even an ISD, a gigantic fortress in space, was severely threatened while shields were down by a collision with a small ship. They most certainly were not aiming to ram as many ships as possible. And that's why the rules feel so strange during gameplay, especially considering the size difference between CR90 and ISD.

Ultimately, I would have preferred something to the effect of overlapped ships rolling X agility dice and having to meet some number of successes to avoid destruction. Perhaps with stress being assigned to ships which have successfully evaded. Or even that ships' bases must be completely overlapped rather than simply nicked.

What was the Tantive's loadout? It's very easy to get wrong, leaving it unable to do a thing against those close fighters. Until we have Imperial Huges you shouldn't even consider the turbolaser upgrades. Plus, if your opponent wasn't making liberal use of Recover then it will die fast.

Anything sucks when you play it badly.

Again, not OP, but I think there is something wrong when the game incentivises Huge ships to get into collisions rather than to avoid them!

It's actually heavily incentivising the other player not to joust with a battleship.

The ramming rules are there to prevent TIE fighters blocking huges.

Ultimately, I would have preferred something to the effect of overlapped ships rolling X agility dice and having to meet some number of successes to avoid destruction.

But then where do those ships go? They either block the huge (which makes no sense) or are removed from the field. You can't move ships without a template.

Might have to allow fewer shields, or possibly have some other balance mechanism. Like shield regen is 3 energy per shield.

It sounds like you're suggesting the opposite direction than the critics are calling for.

Yeah, but in concert with the only uncancelled [crit]s damage shields change.

Possibly also have bleed through on shields. So say you shoot a huge ship with 2 shields left. You roll [hit], [hit], [hit]. Each shield cancels 1 hit. So you do 1 hull damage. Say you roll [crit],[hit],[hit] versus the same target, you now do 1 shield damage and 1 hull damage. (Since we rule that for large ships we cancel [crit]s before [hit]s - this includes by defence dice and the reinforce action).

This makes Epic ships a lot more survivable, I would suggest that we then drop the shields on the GR75 to 3 but leave the CR90 as is.

This would emphasise combined attacks and/or attacks with secondary weapons. Since lots of fire at the same time would take down the shields, but fighters would find it hard to damage the shields themselves. (A 3 dice attack against 0 defence dice has 33% chance of doing at least 1 shield damage.)

The way I see it, if your opponent goes all out on the Corvette it's going to turtle down at minimum speed and slam the Recover button every turn. It is now doing next to nothing save for primary weapon attacks (no good against anything that close anyway) and coordinating its allies (if it's got a Treadwell healing hull on the front not even that). However, it should be able to hold for quite a while. That leaves the 170 points of your squad ample opportunity to start doing horrible violent things to the Corvette's assailants.

If the Corvette's left alone or hit with the occasional attack then it's reinforcing and its energy is going into guns rather than shielding. And if it's energy is going into its guns, stuff gonna get blown up.

I am in agreement that it has energy troubles but that's part of flying it. I am considering giving it a fair few Tibanna cargoes: it needs those energy boosts.

Right, I probably could have worded it differently. Certainly a Star Destroyer should be able to withstand a lot of impacts. I only meant to illustrate the idea that even an ISD, a gigantic fortress in space, was severely threatened while shields were down by a collision with a small ship. They most certainly were not aiming to ram as many ships as possible. And that's why the rules feel so strange during gameplay, especially considering the size difference between CR90 and ISD.

Ultimately, I would have preferred something to the effect of overlapped ships rolling X agility dice and having to meet some number of successes to avoid destruction. Perhaps with stress being assigned to ships which have successfully evaded. Or even that ships' bases must be completely overlapped rather than simply knicked.

Recall, though, that the SSD was also bombarded by the entire Rebel fleet at that time ("Concentrate all firepower on that Super Star Destroyer"). In game terms, the SSD was dwindling health pretty fast, and the A-wing slamming into it was the final damage it needed to go down. Probably with some scenario rules to help the Rebel side.

Collision rules in this game are lenient enough as it is, but when a large ship smashes into a smaller one, the effect is less a small bump, and more along the lines of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvbgqrPrjkQ#t=0m42s

It helps to make the huge ships feel huge and imposing, prevents smaller fighters from blocking it, makes attacking a huge ship from the front and up close a very risky tactic, the list of upsides goes on and on. Sure, it encourages ramming (especially early game when the big ships are at full health and can shrug of the possible damage resulting from ramming), but if a tiny TIE challenged my big Corvette to a chicken race, you bet I would take the pilot up on his dare. And unless ioned, getting in a position where you can be rammed will be the mistake of the rammed pilot rather than the rammer in most cases.

They're not maneuverable enough to ram as a reliable tactic, but if your opponent screws up you can swat that Firespray into spacedust. Most games in which the starfighter swarm has lost and the huge brigade has won an expensive large has got a little too close to a Huge.

Hmm. Seems most people are enjoying the ramming rules. In that case, I guess all is fine and well.

I'll just continue to scratch my head in confusion during epic games

Due to the nature of the game, the only way a ship can move is under its own power: it maneuvers or takes a movement action and uses a template. This game doesn't have the rules capacity for displacement.

This forces two options: either a TIE fighter can block a huge ship, or when a huge ship's base hits a TIE fighter that TIE is outright removed.

The ramming isn't actually intended for plowing through fields of TIE fighters: the maneuver dials of a huge ship are far too limited to reliably ram. The ramming mechanic, rather than a viable combat technique, is a deterrent for flying into the flight path of a huge: you've got to stay out of its way and if you do a very close strafing run you risk a collision. Huge ships are not hard to dodge but they force you to break formation and scatter.

Due to the nature of the game, the only way a ship can move is under its own power: it maneuvers or takes a movement action and uses a template. This game doesn't have the rules capacity for displacement.

This forces two options: either a TIE fighter can block a huge ship, or when a huge ship's base hits a TIE fighter that TIE is outright removed.

The ramming isn't actually intended for plowing through fields of TIE fighters: the maneuver dials of a huge ship are far too limited to reliably ram. The ramming mechanic, rather than a viable combat technique, is a deterrent for flying into the flight path of a huge: you've got to stay out of its way and if you do a very close strafing run you risk a collision. Huge ships are not hard to dodge but they force you to break formation and scatter.

Well, yeah. It's true there are no rules for movement of ships outside of their own activation phase or action. It's also true that the Epic format, as well as the Huge ships, were newly added to the game. It is also entirely possible that they could have included rules for smaller ships becoming displaced by Huge ships which plod through them.

Regardless, I only brought this up because when I play an Epic game and see a Lambda, which is practically the size of the CR90's engines, slam into it and have no lasting effect, it temporarily harms my immersion and disrupts my suspension of disbelief. It feels unthematic to me.

To others, it may not. I can't say "I'm right" because it's entirely subjective. I merely wanted to see if others agreed with me, not to propose some kind of ultimate solution - the rules are already published, and a FAQ/Errata to the collision rules would be unprecedentedly large.

Though I should point out that ramming isn't that hard. I have been on both ends of the strategy where a low PS ship is sacrificed to cause a traffic jam in the opponents ships, resulting in unavoidable ramming. But this isn't my problem with it, just the 'feel'.

The problem with rules for displacement is to create them without making kamikaze strikes into huge ships a preferred tactic. You wouldn't want to open the possibility that an Academy Pilot or three push a Corvette off the board by giving it a push for instance.

Better to accept the slightly jarring effect of destroying the smaller ships without big effects on the huge.

I have a rule I want to try in the Epic ships. It would be that they only lose shields to critical hits.

This immediately means that they have increased survivability, it also means secondary weapons are more useful (really proton weapons).

Once the shields are down then damage is really painful but till then the ships can tank quite well.

Hmm, at first glance I'd say that's a bit much. Particularly in combination with their shield regeneration.

It might be a bit much for the transport, but for the Tantive? A lot of energy would be freed up for the weapons and if shields would be regenerated then you'd have to reroute all power from weapons to shields stalling your attacks.

So if you were to implement this house rule only for the corvette...

I'd be interested in seeing how this would work out in practice.

An epic mirror match would then really benefit from Etahn or Dodonna or Ten Nunb with Proton Torpedoes.

The problem with rules for displacement is to create them without making kamikaze strikes into huge ships a preferred tactic. You wouldn't want to open the possibility that an Academy Pilot or three push a Corvette off the board by giving it a push for instance.

Better to accept the slightly jarring effect of destroying the smaller ships without big effects on the huge.

More like the Corvette would push the Academies off the board. I certainly wouldn't envision the Huge ships being pushed.

Ironically Dash Rendar will make the Corvette even more rammy! Ignore asteroids? Whaaat?

Ironically Dash Rendar will make the Corvette even more rammy! Ignore asteroids? Whaaat?

Except Corvette destroys asteroids when it runs over them. So never loses its turn to shoot!

I am considering giving it a fair few Tibanna cargoes: it needs those energy boosts.

Tibanna Gas Supply is a limited card, you can only have one per ship.

Tibanna Gas Supply is a limited card, you can only have one per ship.

Ah. Still, one's a useful thing to have.

Next idea, Quad Lasers and double Tactician.

It is also entirely possible that they could have included rules for smaller ships becoming displaced by Huge ships which plod through them.

How? Allow them to take a free barrel roll or boost and you turn ramming into a maneuver option: an advantage. Just put them in front of the ship and you get the question of where? Changing position's an advantage in this game, hence why FFG did it the way they did.

Ironically Dash Rendar will make the Corvette even more rammy! Ignore asteroids? Whaaat?

The crew card only affects the combat phase.

Well you are also not looking at the full picture of epic rules. You have only seen the Rebel huge

The GR75 transport is very good at dealing with enemy fighters. As a matter of fact, 2 transports can be brutal at taking down strike fighters. Want to have fun, field 2, equip one for jamming and one fore slicing.

CR90 is very good at dealing with enemy huge ships. Try Rebels vs Rebels once and you will see the damage that thing can do to an enemy huge ship. Wait until the Imperial Huge ships will come out.

Well you are also not looking at the full picture of epic rules. You have only seen the Rebel huge

The GR75 transport is very good at dealing with enemy fighters. As a matter of fact, 2 transports can be brutal at taking down strike fighters. Want to have fun, field 2, equip one for jamming and one fore slicing.

CR90 is very good at dealing with enemy huge ships. Try Rebels vs Rebels once and you will see the damage that thing can do to an enemy huge ship. Wait until the Imperial Huge ships will come out.

But given that fighters are already good at killing Corvettes, why take a big ship for that role?

You know, aside from being a capital ship fanboy who will get the Imperial big ships regardless of how good or terrible they are just to have a slugging match between two big ships...

But given that fighters are already good at killing Corvettes, why take a big ship for that role?

You know, aside from being a capital ship fanboy who will get the Imperial big ships regardless of how good or terrible they are just to have a slugging match between two big ships...

The CR90 wrecks shuttles. It absolutely shreds them. I have watched one get torn apart in a single volley. And thats when you realize, the CR90 is not good at killing TIE Fighters (of any persuasion), but Agility 1 stuff, that stuff dies FAST. Even 2 agility stuff isnt safe.

And then you look at the rebel ships. A lot of them only have 1 agility (well 3). And the vast majority only have 2. Only the Awing and Ewing are "safe" from huge ship fire.

Currently, the only huge ship with guns on it is a Rebel cruiser. When people play epic (at least its been my experience) they tend to play Rebel vs Imperial (not rebel vs rebel), so you only see the interaction of huge weapons which double green dice or add green dice, vs a faction with a TON of green dice. Naturally, TIE Fighters and Interceptors dodge everything.

But when the Imperial ships come out, the rebels will have the following choice:

1) fly expensive low agility high firepower ships towards massive guns (all the while ignoring the Imperial fighter CAP)

2) fly expensive high agility low firepower ships towards massive guns (all the while ignoring the Imperial fighter CAP)

3) bring a huge ship of their own to concentrate fire on the enemy huge ship and fly a CAP to protect your huge ship and gain fighter superiority.

When both sides have huge ships the epic game will change.

The CR90 wrecks shuttles. It absolutely shreds them. I have watched one get torn apart in a single volley. And thats when you realize, the CR90 is not good at killing TIE Fighters (of any persuasion), but Agility 1 stuff, that stuff dies FAST. Even 2 agility stuff isnt safe.

Yet I spent 3 turns trying to kill a shuttle with my corvette and could only land one point of damage before it got inside the range limit.

Of course, then I ran over it (and my own falcon, and an interceptor, and one of my x-wing. Sigh).

The CR90 wrecks shuttles. It absolutely shreds them. I have watched one get torn apart in a single volley. And thats when you realize, the CR90 is not good at killing TIE Fighters (of any persuasion), but Agility 1 stuff, that stuff dies FAST. Even 2 agility stuff isnt safe.

Yet I spent 3 turns trying to kill a shuttle with my corvette and could only land one point of damage before it got inside the range limit.

Of course, then I ran over it (and my own falcon, and an interceptor, and one of my x-wing. Sigh).

Huge ships are hell on players who don't fly well enough or anticipate how the huge ship will fly, including the player of the huge ship in question. I'm surprised you did this to yourself.

Regarding your attacks on the shuttle, were your rolls about average, or are we talking about an outlier situation?

You need better dice! (And this is me saying it, I once had an uncloaked Whisper in RB1 of two Bwing with a Target locks on her and I whiffed with both.) People make fun of my luck at my LGS.

Here is my CR90 build that can wreck face

Han + Weapons Engineer + Weapon Engineer = 3 Target Locks, and Han can use his ability vs all three of them. Thats a lot of pseudo focus.

The CR90 wrecks shuttles. It absolutely shreds them. I have watched one get torn apart in a single volley. And thats when you realize, the CR90 is not good at killing TIE Fighters (of any persuasion), but Agility 1 stuff, that stuff dies FAST. Even 2 agility stuff isnt safe.

And then you look at the rebel ships. A lot of them only have 1 agility (well 3). And the vast majority only have 2. Only the Awing and Ewing are "safe" from huge ship fire.

Currently, the only huge ship with guns on it is a Rebel cruiser. When people play epic (at least its been my experience) they tend to play Rebel vs Imperial (not rebel vs rebel), so you only see the interaction of huge weapons which double green dice or add green dice, vs a faction with a TON of green dice. Naturally, TIE Fighters and Interceptors dodge everything.

But when the Imperial ships come out, the rebels will have the following choice:

1) fly expensive low agility high firepower ships towards massive guns (all the while ignoring the Imperial fighter CAP)

2) fly expensive high agility low firepower ships towards massive guns (all the while ignoring the Imperial fighter CAP)

3) bring a huge ship of their own to concentrate fire on the enemy huge ship and fly a CAP to protect your huge ship and gain fighter superiority.

When both sides have huge ships the epic game will change.

Right, but my question is, why would an Imperial player field a huge ship? As you noted, the Corvette is at its their best against agility one. Which for the Empire means... the shuttle and the upcoming Decimator. They aren't quite as handy against agility 3+ fighters, which is the bulk of the Imperial arsenal. And those are quite capable of killing a Corvette.

Huge ships are hell on players who don't fly well enough or anticipate how the huge ship will fly, including the player of the huge ship in question. I'm surprised you did this to yourself.

Regarding your attacks on the shuttle, were your rolls about average, or are we talking about an outlier situation?

As for the running over things, it was more or less deliberate on my part. The falcon was already badly damaged (I was actually hoping he would kill it before the corvette got there) so no big loss and my guns weren't doing jack to him so I just gunned it into the parking lot.

Dice rolls were about average. 4 dice attacks vs 3 focused defense dice are just pretty weak. He was in front of me (hence the ram) so I couldn't bring any secondaries to bear, not that I had any energy to fire them effectively anyway.

Right, but my question is, why would an Imperial player field a huge ship? As you noted, the Corvette is at its their best against agility one. Which for the Empire means... the shuttle and the upcoming Decimator. They aren't quite as handy against agility 3+ fighters, which is the bulk of the Imperial arsenal. And those are quite capable of killing a Corvette.

Deterrence Theory.

If you have not played against two rebel Transports, I would recommend it. They absolutely wreck face. One hands out stress, the other damages ships, all without attacking, all without rolling dice, or relying on defence actions/tokens. Around this you can build a very harsh stress/ion list. Its absolutely brutal to be on the receiving end of it.

So knowing this, as an Imperial player I would field huge ships of my own, one with guns that can obliterate the transports very easily.

Consequently, a Rebel player knowing this would bring his corvette to fight the huge Imperial ship at range.

And its EPIC! Hence why we spent 100 bucks on a piece of plastic.

Maybe if they ever hold epic tournaments we will see some sort of meta happening with them. There might be a 150 point per player team tournament at CanGames in Ottawa this September. It will be interesting to say the least.