For the record, I've tried using THIS build. Which isnt horrible.

Delta

-HLC

-EU

Omnicron Group Pilot

-Sensor Jammer

-Ion Cannon

-Rebel Captive

-EU

Academy Pilot x 2

=100pts

It's a little low on PS for my tastes but seems to work alright. Needs a little more testing. Basically, you ram the shuttle down peoples throat begging them to shoot at it...which they have so far. Ties are in there blocking and doing their thing. Meanwhile, the Defender is plenty speedy enough to avoid close dogfighting combat, can play the edges and do quick turns to keep the HLC in the fight. It flanks, but it flanks at range with the HLC.

It isn't a better tank, but that's apparently irrelevant.

In other news, I also enjoy completely ignoring other people's arguments and boldly proclaiming how much more knowledgable I am at things because listening and actually responding is overrated...

I'm hoping you mean that the Defender ISNT the better tank.

Actually I quite clearly meant that the Interceptor isn't a better tank, but as you seem to be quite clearly opposed to listening to anyone else's viewpoint lower than your own, I don't particularly care to discuss that further. So I shan't.

As to the OP's dilemma, I like ThatOneGuy's strategy. My initial thought as well was for a Zulu "bull horn" sort of formation with the Defender running straight up the middle and the Firespray's cutting in from the corners. Use the Defender t draw them in and then close the trap. Either K-Turn the Defender earlier or let it zoom through the middle then K-Turn around for a pass at the weak flanks of your opponent. Just my two cents.

Alright dude, please slow your roll... It seems like you're taking this really personally, and 1) it's a game (as I said before and games should be fun otherwise they would be called work) and 2) you're not even answering the question at hand which is why you're not being well received in this post. Your response on the defender and positioning was: 'use the squint instead'... If that's the case, why stop there? Why not just build and fly the squad for him? If he wants to fly the defender, I (pun completely intended) will defend that right...

I thought I countered your benefits for Carnor pretty well in the post that you so respectfully labeled as 'stuff'. Actually, I'm pretty sure I argued merits for interceptors too and validated my devotion to them by telling you I flew Soontir in regionals.

If you want your argument respected and to have strength, don't deny a differing point of view the chance to respond by saying that I 'cant' as part of your argument, even if you have good points, they won't go over well with the peanut gallery. Also, it's bad etiquette and discourages civil discourse... So again, please slow, your roll.

I DID have points for the advantages of the Interceptors. I agree, the defender needs upgrades to make it truly shine and it's already expensive. And I reiterate, I don't think HLC is the 'must have' upgrade on it like PTL is on squints! I think Vesery is 'upgrade enough' for the defender by giving him a TL focused shot every turn with a little (and cheap) coordination with FCS on other ships. I'm not sure on the math wing side of the house, but the odds of a hit with 4 dice HLC with a focus or TL has to comparable to a 3 dice Vessery with TL and focus. Plus, if you roll well you can use that focus for defense

Additionally, Carnor comes out of the gate with a red x painted on his head because of his admittedly powerful and annoying ability. Vessery, not necessilary so.

I already addressed your other points on the previous 'stuff' post and so I won't again, however tempted I am to go over them, one by one showing you that 'I CAN' and 'I DID'.

You have obviously made a very hard and definite conclusion to your opinion of the Defender (although self admittedly untested by the larger meta). Some people don't agree with you. We who don't aren't 'defying logic', were forming our own opinions. Don't you trust the game makers who science this and play test before release thought this out to make it balanced? If not, why would they even bother releasing a ship that was inferior?

You are welcome to continue flying squints. This thread wasn't asking about them, though. Feel free to respond, but don't expect much back unless it's civil and respectful of an opinion that differs from yours...

Well, see...that's pretty much the problem isnt it.

People making claims (like the defender being a better tank) and not explaining why. If you're getting upset at the arguement I'm making...and it seems you are...then maybe you should sit back and take a more objective look.

The interceptor actually IS the better tank. Unlike you however, I'll explain why.

For the same cost in points....we will take a delta, naked, since that's pretty much the issue here and compare it to an interceptor of the same cost. What we want is a tank....oooookkkkkkk....

Delta

-AG 3

-can focus

-no evade

-6 health

...when it's shot it has ag3 and 1 focus to bounce that attack

Soontir fell (30pts with ptl)

-AG 3

-can focus x 2

-also evades

-3 health

....when it's shot it has ag3, 2 focus, and an evade to bounce the attack

Soontir wins on tanking

Royal Guard Pilot (32pts)

-AG 3

-Can focus

-Can evade

-5 health

...when it's shot it has ag3 a focus and an evade to bounce the attack.

Royal Guard wins at tanking over the Defender once again.

Certainly you can fire at the ships with more than one aggressor...in which case the Defender suffers JUST as badly as the interceptors. Except for Soontir Fell...who has an addt'l focus for another round of firing.

I also point out (again) that both the interceptors are better at arc-dodging (the 2nd best way of avoiding damage) than the naked Defender....which cannot.

Don't get mad at my arguements. Try to be objective when logical arguements are thrown at you.

Interceptors are better and more efficient than the Defender at pretty much everything...EXCEPT carrying an HLC.

....I'm still waiting for the arguement and examples why I'm wrong.

You are welcome to continue flying squints. This thread wasn't asking about them, though. Feel free to respond, but don't expect much back unless it's civil and respectful of an opinion that differs from yours...

I'm fairly certain I've been nothing BUT civil here. Haven't insulted anyone, and am just making a point...with well thought out arguements...and that seems to be putting people off.

I dunno why anyone would get upset when I say that flying naked Defenders is inefficient. The worst I've done is say that someone (maybe it was you...don't remember) doesnt understand the Defender very well....which is hardly an insult.

You're right about one thing though, we ARE all forming opinions. The only difference here is that I've been backing my opinions up with examples...everyone else just seems to be getting upset.

In short...you can lecture me on politeness all day long. It doesnt change the fact that I've shown here that compared to an interceptor, the Defender does EVERYTHING less efficiently...other than carry an HLC....oh, and k-turn stressless....but I don't think free K-turns will be much of a surprise to anyone, not enough to actually get you an upper hand.

It's a tough argument that math wing might not back you up on saying that something with three (or even four hull and a shield) hull is less tanky than something with three shields and three hull. Focuses don't do much good if 1) are spent on attacks 2) when you roll all blanks. Fact... You CAN one shot Soontir at 30 points and you CANNOT with a Delta...

Squints ability to arc dodge specifically speaks to it's agility and guile and not it's tank... If it were such a tank, why would it NEED that barrel roll/boost to get out of arc.

I just think you are going to find a lot of people disagree with you and your statement that something with fewer shields and matching agility dice (even with evade actions) is more tanky.

Dude,

We've been backing ourselves up as well too.

You stated that I didn't understand something and claimed that my arguments (it's spelled arguments not arguements) weren't being made when they (and back me up here other posters) were. You then stated that I couldn't even make and argument against something and you 'saved me the time'... Come on, that's being a little disrespectful in my book.. And if you can read above, I'm not alone here on this. So insisting that you have been nothing BUT but then go on to say things that someone could have taken offense too means that first statement might not be as absolute as you think it is.

It's not the arguments that people are taking the wrong way, you have the right to make them and have those opinions. It's the way in which they are presented. I tried telling you this earlier. If you read above, I agree with you on many points! But those that I do not agree with I don't insult your intelligence by stating that you clearly don't understand the game and should take a hike.

It's a tough argument that math wing might not back you up on saying that something with three (or even four hull and a shield) hull is less tanky than something with three shields and three hull. Focuses don't do much good if 1) are spent on attacks 2) when you roll all blanks. Fact... You CAN one shot Soontir at 30 points and you CANNOT with a Delta...

Squints ability to arc dodge specifically speaks to it's agility and guile and not it's tank... If it were such a tank, why would it NEED that barrel roll/boost to get out of arc.

I just think you are going to find a lot of people disagree with you and your statement that something with fewer shields and matching agility dice (even with evade actions) is more tanky.

1 on 1 ship barring crazy luck...a PTL Interceptor SHOULD take less damage than a Defender. The Evade token is key here...something FOR tanking that the Defender does not have access too. Since we are using Soontir as an example here...I point out that he has Access to TWO focuses a turn (which you would NOT use during shooting if you are trying to stay alive...good squint players know this) Sure you CAN one shot Soontir...but have you seen it done? If so...how often, I'm betting, not very.

Since Squints with PTL and upgrades are more evasive (due to the evade token) that MAKES them better tanks. If you are up against two ships...sure it makes it harder, but at this point the Defender can be brought down too, three ships? Any fighter is dead in X-Wing as a tank....any fighter. Your defender might SOAK more damage, but the squints EVADE more, THAT is what makes them better tanks...and if you've got 5 health on a Squint...well, it's obviously the better choice for tanking since the EVASION never goes down, it's ALWAYS available, unlike the sheilds and health that the Defender is BARELY superior in. Again, we are talking mainly about 5 health pt squints with PTL here. Soontir is a Special case, he is just far more evasive.

LETS MAKE IT EVEN SIMPLER

Who is tankier if a Defender and a 5 health squint roll NO evades and NO focus over the course of a game

The difference is the Evade that the Squint has access to.

1 ship vs 1 ship the SQUINT is EASILY tankier b/c every turn he comes out with an evade counter.

To kill either ship in the first round of combat you need 6 damage

To kill the defender in the second round you need 6, squint 7

third round defender 6, squint 8

...the evade makes all the difference. (and we arent talking about blocking b/c we are 1 on 1, we can talk about multiple ship combats if you like, but the same arguements apply)

2. I never stated that arc-dodging was a tanking benefit. I just threw that in to show that the squints are more versatile.

3. they have matching evade dice...but PTL squints are FAR more evasive than the Defender any day of the week, making them tankier.

Dude,

We've been backing ourselves up as well too.

You stated that I didn't understand something and claimed that my arguments (it's spelled arguments not arguements) weren't being made when they (and back me up here other posters) were. You then stated that I couldn't even make and argument against something and you 'saved me the time'... Come on, that's being a little disrespectful in my book.. And if you can read above, I'm not alone here on this. So insisting that you have been nothing BUT but then go on to say things that someone could have taken offense too means that first statement might not be as absolute as you think it is.

It's not the arguments that people are taking the wrong way, you have the right to make them and have those opinions. It's the way in which they are presented. I tried telling you this earlier. If you read above, I agree with you on many points! But those that I do not agree with I don't insult your intelligence by stating that you clearly don't understand the game and should take a hike.

Nevermind my spelling...stay on topic please, my spelling is irrelevant to the discussion. Your attempt to appear superior is noted however, I hope it feels good.

When did I ever tell you to take a hike? If you are upset that someone states that they don't think you understand the way a ship is flown...thats not an insult. If you took it as an insult, you're the one with the problem.

It is the fighter not the rogue who charges in to make the line to hold to create something TO flank, not the rogue who boosts and barrel rolls out of the way.

With PTL you're taking two actions, however if you turtle up that round, you can't boost or barrel roll because your actions are decided. If you're flying against interceptors you know to vary fields of fire to always put dice on them where they can't boost and barrel roll out of the way.

I'm curious if you were insinuating I wasn't a good squint player and wouldn't know how to spend tokens on that previous post. If so... Lolz... If not, who was that to?

I understand how evade tokens work. They prevent one damage... Period... That does not make up for fewer shields to help stave off the dreaded direct hit critical. I have been one shotted and one shotted Soontir many times as I almost always fly with the good Baron. It happens, the dice gods are fickle and there's like a 1% chance of rolling three blanks, but it happens. 'Should not' and 'cannot' be one shotted are very different things.

In conclusion, I WOULD describe squints as more elusive, but not more tanky as the defender. Sorry if that defies your 'logic' (which some call opinions even if justified) but that's how it goes. Being 'barely' superior in something still makes it superior...

You're right, it's irrelevant, but good diction and proper grammar help form a well respected argument. I do apologize for pointing it out, it's my own OCD and yearn for a time when more emphasis was put on grammar. Not trying to seem superior, which I feel is what you've been doing all night. I just couldn't help myself. Believe me, my wife finds it extremely annoying and I understand it's off-putting. No disrespect.

I just described above why the evade counter makes the squint tankier. It was an edit so you might have missed it.

If you have more fields of fire...then so do I. Let's keep this simple for now and not muddy up the subject with "well if you do this with your one ship, then my squad does that". That's not what we're talking about here. The subject is simple, defender or 5 health squint...which is tankier. We can talk about adding multiple variables like multiple ships/critical hits/supporting squad cast and the like later, for now, if we cannot get on the same page here...then there is no point.

for now...1 on 1...the Squint is tankier thanks to the evade token. Reasons given above...and they aren't really arguable. It's just a fact with all the luck (dice) taken out.

They are arguable dude... Please stop making such sweeping statements as facts that just clearly are not as you are clearly having a debate about it right now.

Feel free to take your 4 hull one shield Squint list (three RGPs with PTL and that at 96 points) to joust with anybody and see how long you last... I'm guessing that's now how you fly squints, you use their elusiveness not their tankiness to stay out of arc to stay alive longer.

I would gladly joust three deltas against that. 4 k turn around knowing the PTL will prevent that on the squints... It's just not how squints are flown, hence why I'm guessing you DONT spend seven extra points on your squints giving them a hull and a shield. If you do, then I would argue that you might want to rethink how to fly squints...

SIMPLY

5 health PTL Squint and Naked Defender (generally equal in points) are trying to out-tank one another.

Same firepower

Same Agility

Interceptor has evade

Defender has 1 more health.

Lets take luck out....no evasion dice are rolled the entire game...blanks all the way.

Lets take luck out of it again. Each ship rolls only a single basic hit (no lucky crits) each turn.

Which ship out-tanks the other? which one?

Next game...each ship rolls two basic hits a turn

Which ship out-tanks the other? Simple question, which one?

Next game...each ship rolls three basic hits a turn

Which ship out-tanks the other? Simple question, which one?

It's pretty simple math really. The squint is the better tank every time. If you cannot see that...well...lets just say I don't want to "insult" you again.

Dude, it's not luck it's probability...

I'm out for the night. Good luck, man. Fly casual.

. It's just not how squints are flown, hence why I'm guessing you DONT spend seven extra points on your squints giving them a hull and a shield. If you do, then I would argue that you might want to rethink how to fly squints...

I won both of my local Imdaar Alpha tournaments with 1st place flying 5 health Jax and 5 health RGP. Granted, I didnt particularly try to tank with them...more arc dodging, but if I DID...You can bet I would have more success doing it with them than I would with two Defenders.

...so yes, I do know how to fly squints.

Dude, it's not luck it's probability...

Well, now it appears to be semantics.

I'm out for the night. Good luck, man. Fly casual.

Don't blame you. All I can say is this try not to get upset next time and look for insults where there aren't any. When you feel yourself getting mad, just remember....

-Yoda (yea, the little green guy)

So I'm thinking of trying 2 x Bounty Hunter + Seismic Charges; 1 x Delta Sq.

What would be the best set up and initial flying strategy?

This thread seems to have taken an unpleasantly aggressive turn. Let me address the original question.

The seismic charges mean you want to joust, I reckon, hopefully overflying your opponents and leaving a nasty seismic surprise behind. I think I'd be tempted to keep the ships together as long as possible, concentrate fire and get the seismics deployed as soon as possible to ensure they get used.

I'm always cautious of having flankers. Time it wrong and you're missing out on shots.

Then again, lacking synergy gives you freedom. Each ship remains effective on its own. There's no need to keep them in a certain range of one another. This means you can be erratic and unpredictable in hither middle game, hopefully throwing your opponent off balance.

With those big bases, you'll need to scan the board for nice wide lanes to manoeuvre through and try to lure your opponent into them. To this end, maybe put your asteroids at your edge and fly past them quickly, into open space. Then again, if you can time your seismics for use in an asteroid field there's less chance of them being avoided.

Cheers

Vs

Not to derail this further from the OP's original intent, but why not balance the whole argument from before?

Soontir Fel + PTL

Delta + Ion Cannon

Bounty Hunter + Recon Specialist

Three players about equal on points. For many reasons, people love trying to chase down Fel, which in turn makes the Delta and the BH better flankers. Add to that a Delta that can ion ships to set up the next round of shots. It's the best of both worlds.

Sorry to derail further from original intent, but this just made sense to me over my cup of morning coffee. Cheers all.

Okay, just a couple of points/opinions concerning the discussion about the Intercepor and Defender:

---Vessery can be a better choice than a fully equiped Jax in a build if you made the team accordingly. Give him VI to make him PS8 (like Jax) and both ship cost 36pts. If there is another ship that can take a TL in the team, you are effectively giving 2 actions per turn to Vessery; being able to attack every round with F+TL is devastating and should not be discounted. You are also not stress which allow you to keep your maneuvrability. If, for a reason X, you can't clear your stress (decided to make a white maneuver, ioned, got double stressed, made a red maneuver this turn) or get blocked, you still have your TL so your attacks will always be effective. Of course, if nobody takes TL in your team, Jax will be a better choice, but let's assume that the player know what he's doing.

---I don't understand why some people think that the Defender is a predictable ship; it has 17 possible maneuvers. The only ship that has as much is the E-Wing. If stressed, you can only clear it by going straight, but you are not forced to clear it next turn because you don't rely on actions as much as some other craft for your survival. And if we get back to Vessery, you still have a TL no matter what, so you can continue to be a threat even when stressed. Also, having a white k-turn allow you to make a 180 turn even when stressed so it can allow you to get back in the fight fast, unlike other ships that will either make a green straight followed by a k-turn (still stressed a far away) do a green bank to clear stress then a hard (still not 180 and took 2 turns) do 1 hard green + boost then a bank or hard (still took 2 turn). That brings up a point about predictability. A PtL Interceptor will be stressed every turn if he is in the fight, that limits it to 7 maneuvers. Sure, he can arc dodge with boost and barrel roll but, unlike the Defender, there is a big sweet spot where I am 100% that he won't have a line of sight. Against a Defender, there is no place where you can be 100% that he won't have a shot at you. So, I don't think the ship is predictable, it's the player flying it that make it so, because there is a lot of tool on his dial.

---Regarding tankiness of both ship, I prefer the Defender. For the comparaison made above, the Royal Guard is 32 pts and the Defender 30 pts, so either give a hull upgrade to the Defender so it has 1 more point than the Interceptor (closer than the previous 2) or remove the Hull upgrade from the Interceptor so it cost 29, again making a margin of 1 point instead of 2. So we are now talking either 4 Hull+1 Shield vs 4 Hull+3 Shield or 3 Hull+1 Shield vs 3 Hull+3 Shield. Basically, we have a difference of 2 Shields. That looks like 2 free evade for me for the sake of comparaison. So, the Interceptor edge (the evade token) will really come into play by the third turn of shooting. Also, taking a focus+evade to be tankier make you more predictable next turn, see point above. Also, you might not need the evade for that turn (made some good rolls), so you just lost your action (Defender keep his shield for another turn of fighting) and made yourself more predictable (still need to clear that stress).

Another important point for this comparaison is that the Interceptor is much more action dependant to be a tank, so if he get blocked or begin the turn with 2 stress or no way to clear his (Ionized or forced to make a white maneuver), he won't be as tanky as he seems at first. The Defender shields are always active no matter what, until he effectively needed them; 2 free evades, no matter what. There is also some pilots that begin to enter play that can deny or remove his tokens (Jax or Wes). Again, 2 more shields is not affected.

Finally, like it or not, the luck factor is part of this game. You roll blank with your Interceptor+ Evade versus 3 hits, you are left with 2 Hull, you roll blank with the Defender, you are left with 3 Hull, if there is a second attack this turn on your ship, the Defender is in better position. Even without luck, as long as there is a second shot on your ship, the Defender still has at least 1 more hit point to take it (if you still have your evade, that means the Defender didn't get hit either since they both roll the same number of dice). Crit should also not be totally discounted to make a fair comparaison cause there is more and more way to get them (marksmanship, Rexler Brath, soon Chiraneau, Etahn). Like it or not, a Shield is worth a little more than a Hull.

---

Anyway, from a defensive perspective, I consider the Defender more reliable than an Interceptor because it doesn't rely on actions to do so, which allow him to not take a stress token and keep his unpredictabilty. But, more importantly, it is not the job of the Interceptor to be a tank in the first place, so all this comparaison is futile. I love both ship and don't consider one better than the other, they both serve their roles.

I cannot agree with Red Castle more. If you have flown Vessery with a squad built around him, he can be a monster. His damage potential is more than a squint unless you pair it with PTL and a TC. But now with the squint, you have to stress yourself to TL+Focus and you cannot arc dodge. So with 4 hit points you are not going to be as tanky as Vessery with 6.

If you are going to run a Defender 'naked' Vessery is the best one. His ability only needs other ships to work. He doesn't have to rely on upgrades on him. Brath really needs Predator to get the most out of his ability and the generics are way better with HLCs. But one advantage of running a naked Delta over say an elite squint is the targeting priority. The squint is going to draw a lot more fire than the Delta. If you can get a Defender into the end game, you can dominate most ships on a 1 on 1 scenario.

I feel so vindicated right now. I'm not crazy or alone!

Deadshane, I'm new here and don't want to make you mad or anything but your posts are in the wrong thread. OP wanted to know about deployment not list building or comparisons. Good points you did make but they didn't really contribute to what the OP wanted to know dude.