So I'm thinking of trying 2 x Bounty Hunter + Seismic Charges; 1 x Delta Sq.

What would be the best set up and initial flying strategy?

Use delta as flanker, defenders don't hard turn well (one and two hard are red) and the BHs will need the maneuvering space.

I'm starting to think that any usage of the Defender w/o HLC and EU cards is to be classified "for fun" only. Defender is a flanker sure, but even moreso it is a sniper, to get the most out of it its GOT to be used that way.

I mean...look at this comparison...

30-Delta Defender

32-Royal Guard Pilot

-PTL

-Royal Guard Title

-Sheild Upgrade

-Hull Upgrade

The RGP is better IN EVERY WAY, only two more points and you get evade, boost, more PS, better dial, and two actions. TWO POINTS.

There is NO reason, whatsoever, in any list, to run a naked Delta. If you are...your list can be better. If you're doing it for fun...more power to you.

Even considering the white k-turns Deadshane?

White K turns are LOOONG....you need the HLC. It's how the ship is best used. It's really not much of a dogfighter...not when it's compared to the Interceptor.

Naked Delta

OR

Soontir Fel w/ PTL

Both 30 pts....you choose.

I'm not saying the ship is bad or anything, but you wouldn't generally use a naked Y would you? It needs something to get all it can be out of it.

There might be an arguement that it will be the best usage of the HLC the imperials have. Better than on a Firespray and definatly better than on a Shuttle.

I would much rather use Vessery naked over a delta w HLC

Moreover, which ships to use wasn't OPs question. It was how to position the ships listed. You say 'for fun'... Isn't that the point of all games?

I have used a ps1 defender, then I realized you can get fel with ptl for the same cost... And swapped for fel.

Having a ps9 interceptor is much nicer to me

Why would a Defender need both a HLC and an Engine Upgrade? If anything, I don't want to be closer if I'm relying on the HLC because I already get my 4th attack die. I don't want my opponent having any easier time hitting me. If I boost, then that's just less likely that I'll get an attack run with 4 dice twice.

OP, the one problem I have with your list in particular is that there's no good priority target. Now, that may seem odd, but without an obvious choice to focus down your opponent becomes less predictable. Now, I haven't bothered to check the point total on a list like this yet but I'd advise giving the Defender something to make it scary, even if that thing is just an Ion Cannon. Otherwise it's just basically got the same roll in the squad as your BHs.

That being said, It looks like you're going to want to spread out over the board, trying to pincer opponents and force them to turn towards one ship or the other. Slow play the Firesprays while moving the Defender up one side of the board quickly.

I have used a ps1 defender, then I realized you can get fel with ptl for the same cost... And swapped for fel.

Having a ps9 interceptor is much nicer to me

Now old soontir is nice but he has. One major weakness and that's those treacherous green dice, they will betray you sooner or later and he can get one shot by alot of ships, the defender has three shields that can help it survive dice betrayal.

My thought in using the defender naked was simply because of the survival factor. But Soontir is tempting.

Yes evade dice can be treacherous, but arc dodging is his specialty, and he's also pretty great vs phantoms

My "mama said stress you out" list uses 2 35 point shuttles and had a defender. I then swapped the defender for an alpha and an academy, then for fel. And fel was the best choice. Against other high ps arc dodgers (phantoms, b wings with ptl, e wings etc) he is great.

I've had great success with dual firesprays and Soontir.

Also, if you have the points, consider tactician on your sprays. It works for both firing arcs and you're at range two more often than not. Something to consider, I think it works great giving stress preventing k turns and help kneeing your large ships out of arc.

Why would a Defender need both a HLC and an Engine Upgrade? If anything, I don't want to be closer if I'm relying on the HLC because I already get my 4th attack die. I don't want my opponent having any easier time hitting me. If I boost, then that's just less likely that I'll get an attack run with 4 dice twice.

The boost is for edging into long range if you're out of range completely, OR extending your escape before the K-turn to re-engage.

It's not for closing to short ranges, you use it to maneuver for ranged shots.

I would much rather use Vessery naked over a delta w HLC

Then, I don't think you really understand the ship. Naked Vessery is again...a waste.

35-Vessery

36-Carnor Jax

-PTL

-Royal Guard Title

-Sheild Upgrade

-Hull Upgrade

Without any ranged equiptment, Vessery is a dogfighter. Carnor Jax is the CLEAR better choice to use up those points in your list. Lose the Hull and give him a Targetting Computer to make him exactly the same points cost instead of 1pt more...still a proven build.

Without an HLC, a defender is dragging down the efficiency of your squad. Period. If you're going to argue that you need to be prepared to explain why a naked defender (unproven ship/considered rather high in points) is better than a loaded Elite Interceptor (considered one of the best ships in the whole game).

I have used a ps1 defender, then I realized you can get fel with ptl for the same cost... And swapped for fel.

Having a ps9 interceptor is much nicer to me

Now old soontir is nice but he has. One major weakness and that's those treacherous green dice, they will betray you sooner or later and he can get one shot by alot of ships, the defender has three shields that can help it survive dice betrayal.

Soontir with PTL can tank with two focus and an evade...along with your 3/4 evade dice. Plus he can arc dodge at PS9, and he shoots before most of his opponents do.

That's about as resiliant as you can get in this game. He can easilly take one ship shooting at him in a turn, often two, three? Well, if you get Soontir cornered in three firing arcs...you deserve to lose the game right then and there. That should never happen.

....but if it does...he's still got a chance to limp away.

Why would a Defender need both a HLC and an Engine Upgrade? If anything, I don't want to be closer if I'm relying on the HLC because I already get my 4th attack die. I don't want my opponent having any easier time hitting me. If I boost, then that's just less likely that I'll get an attack run with 4 dice twice.

I agree somewhat with what you're saying here, but that boost can also be used to deliberately get further from your target.. making sure you have that range 2 or 3 shot..

I would much rather use Vessery naked over a delta w HLC

Then, I don't think you really understand the ship. Naked Vessery is again...a waste.

35-Vessery

36-Carnor Jax

-PTL

-Royal Guard Title

-Sheild Upgrade

-Hull Upgrade

Without any ranged equiptment, Vessery is a dogfighter. Carnor Jax is the CLEAR better choice to use up those points in your list. Lose the Hull and give him a Targetting Computer to make him exactly the same points cost instead of 1pt more...still a proven build.

Without an HLC, a defender is dragging down the efficiency of your squad. Period. If you're going to argue that you need to be prepared to explain why a naked defender (unproven ship/considered rather high in points) is better than a loaded Elite Interceptor (considered one of the best ships in the whole game).

Pretty presumptuous to boldly state what I do and don't understand there buddy...

Vessery is, in my opinion, NOT a waste. I'm not saying that Jax doesn't have his merits, but just because Jax does doesn't mean Vessery doesn't!

You talk about the defender being untested, but the ship is pretty new (five weeks?) and certainly has potential. So you're saying for equal points (ish) you say Vessery naked doesn't have potential?! He's a "waste"? He has one more HP than Jax wih that load out you made (two MORE shields...need I say more on their benefit). As long and someone else has a TL (very easy to do this with FCS) Vessery gets a free TL to use for that attack.. Or not if you don't need it and save it! So his focus token that round (if he did focus) can be used for defense if he's getting lit up that round. Put VI on him and he matches Jax in PS (only fair since your load out is one point more). Yes, great, Carnor gets two actions and he can boost. But he can't WHITE K TURN... Actually he can't K turn at all if he's constantly using PTL... Actually, if he's using PTL every round he's limited to one of 7 moves, which can get predictable and put him in arcs if you know the only hard turn he can make is a hard 2...

All I'm saying is HLC isn't the end all be all of Defenders. Spending 7 MORE points on a ship that already costs 30 at a minimum is not a requirement! I like Cluster missiles on Vessery... TL for each attack! But that puts him at 39. Cool concept though.

It is in my opinion that you're undervaluing the use of the defender other than hanging back and using HLC (which is mega expensive on an already costly ship). Again, I'm not saying that the interceptor doesn't have it's merits. I LOVE squints, made top 8 in regionals with trusty old Soontir if that helps qualify on what I do and don't understand about things (interceptors especially) at all... I just think sweeping statements about something that you yourself admit is untested is a little presumptuous.

It's of my opinion that you're undervaluing Vessery and non Delta Squad defenders. They're useful and fun to fly. WAY different than any other ship to date. Just takes some getting used to. Give the old Colonel a shot, he might surprise you .

Looks like a do over for this thread?

Someone said use the Defender as a flanker and I agree with that tactic. It would help him look meaner if you could afford the ion cannon but if not your still ok I think. Your opponent may even be foolish enough to ignore it and the good ol delta boy will do some out of Arc brawling!

That being said, It looks like you're going to want to spread out over the board, trying to pincer opponents and force them to turn towards one ship or the other. Slow play the Firesprays while moving the Defender up one side of the board quickly.

I agree with this sentiment. I like the list you have, OP. I've been playing Defenders with only Hull or Shield Upgrades for added survivability, but a "naked" Defender has been great. Just tonight I played a 150 point squad of three Onyx Defenders with Shields and a loaded Echo. Defenders just jousted with their K-turn over and over while Echo hunter priority targets (Jan HWK in particular). Admittedly, my opponent didn't have the best built squad, but I think the strategy of the squad worked. Defenders haven't let me down yet.

stuff

So, are you claiming you can make a squad more efficient with naked Vessery than loaded Jax? Thats basically at the crux of the matter.

There isn't A SINGLE thing that he can do that Jax won't do better.

He cannot tank better.

He cannot shoot better.

He has a weaker dial.

His PS is lower.

He get's 1 action to Jax's 2 and has less possible ones.

...yet you claim that bringing him can maybe be a wiser and more efficient choice?

Explain.

Lemme save you the trouble, you can't.

The Defender, while an interesting and possibly good ship...granted, needs something. It needs something further to make it hum in a list. Missle? Ion? Something. HLC stands out here b/c it's such an excellent gun....and if you really look at the dial of the defender (which lacks tight precision turns w/o stress...ie...poor dogfighter)...it lends itself to being a mobile platform for the HLC. Even the white K turn, being a LONG turn of 4 instead of a three or two, can gain you distance from knife fighting range. Again, this is where the HLC is good.

Vessery wont surprise me, I'm quite versed on what he can do, and without more of an investment in points, you're better off in a list with a loaded interceptor.

It's just a better choice in a squad. CAN you fly a Defender w/o any more investment? SURE!, but there isnt any logical reason to.

It's inferior to the interceptor in every way...EXCEPT it's potential loadout.

That being said, It looks like you're going to want to spread out over the board, trying to pincer opponents and force them to turn towards one ship or the other. Slow play the Firesprays while moving the Defender up one side of the board quickly.

I agree with this sentiment. I like the list you have, OP. I've been playing Defenders with only Hull or Shield Upgrades for added survivability, but a "naked" Defender has been great. Just tonight I played a 150 point squad of three Onyx Defenders with Shields and a loaded Echo. Defenders just jousted with their K-turn over and over while Echo hunter priority targets (Jan HWK in particular). Admittedly, my opponent didn't have the best built squad, but I think the strategy of the squad worked. Defenders haven't let me down yet.

Congrats on your success, glad you're having luck with the Onyx w/Sheild x 3.

However before anyone suggests that this could somehow be a GOOD or EFFICIENT build, I would like to point out that for the EXACT same expenditure in points you can get....

Soontir Fel

Carnor Jax

Turr Phennirr

ALL of them modified with

PTL

Shield Upgrade

Hull Upgrade

I don't think there can be any logical argument on how the 3 Onyxes might be better than three of the best pilots the Imperials have to offer. They simply do the job better.

Like I said. You need to add something to the ship firepower-wise to make it really work out.

It isn't a better tank, but that's apparently irrelevant.

In other news, I also enjoy completely ignoring other people's arguments and boldly proclaiming how much more knowledgable I am at things because listening and actually responding is overrated...