Hello, I had a couple questions on weapon modifications.

1) Can they come 'pre-installed' on items purchased during character create?

I suspect the answer is 'up to the GM'. I had one player apply 2 attachments and 2 modifications to his gun, at character create, using starting funds through obligation. This player is new to the campaign, and none of the other players did this. In fact, they didn't know they could. They don't own the book, and since I wasn't aware of it, neither were they. The new player does own the book, and made use of that knowledge. My problem isn't so much the mods, they have pros and cons, I'm just trying to decide if it's valid. This bypasses both the mechanics check and the risk of a despair. He did spend the 100 credits though. But then this also brings up question 2.

2) Is it valid for characters without mechanics to mod the heck out of their equipment by saying NPCs did it?

This to me seems to go against the spirit of modifications. When I read this section I got the impression that these are custom, personalized additions to 'standard' attachments. It should be something the character does at his private workbench and proudly shows off to his crew-mates. If some random NPC mechanic can just spit these things out in a matter of hours, doesn't that belittle the characters who had to do it themselves? What about the "if you fail, you can not try again", so what - they just go to another NPC and try their luck again? Which leads to question 3...

3) How long is the "you cannot try to install that mod again" period?

My take is "Never." You tried to make the modification, you gave it all you had, but you couldn't figure it out. Maybe that piece of equipment is missing a necessary support structure or has a within-tolerance engineering deviation that ruins your plans. This plays into the 'personal touch', and is part of why I feel an NPC shouldn't be doing this work for the players. Another PC, ok, he's the kickass mechanic and wants to do his crew a solid, but a NPC?

What do you guys think?

1. Your call.

2. Your call.

3. Never, you broke it, stripped the screws, or otherwise buggered it up.

There is nothing in the book that trumps what you decide to do at your table. If you want to sell players modded weapons, have them find them, let NPCs do the work, all your call.

Like 2P51 said, it's all your call, but here, have some opinions:

1) I dislike it, personally. Seems a bit to power gamey. If they had a good enough reason for it (say a backstory about having a gun passed down through generations, or something), I'd be alright, but apart from that, no.

However, by the rules, there is nothing saying anything against it, so... go wild.

2) I'm all for having NPC mechanics/gun smiths. just be sure to point out that it's high performance tuning/removing safety features, so first the player will first have to find a mechanic skilled enough to do it, then they'll have to convince him to drill out the barrel of their disruptor rifle, and then they'll have to pay him exorbitant amounts for his skilled services.

(and then roll the NPC doing it anyway, for shenanigans. If they fails the mod, tough luck. Shoulda gotten it in writing.)

However, just saying: "This has a mod on it now because an NPC did it" would elicit a smack to the head from me. They should have to put in more work than a person who has mechanics, since the mechanic PC statted himself so it WOULD be easier. It's like saying a person who isn't a pilot should have a chauffeur because they didn't train piloting.

3) I figured that yes, since it was performance tuning, you bunged it up in a way that was imperceptible to normal operating parameters, but would have serious repercussions if they tried make that modification again.

1) Personally I allow PCs to purchase attachments for their gear at character creation, but not any modifications. Part of that reasoning is that attachments don't require any sort of roll to install; they're quite literally "plug and play." Modifications on the other hand do require a roll, and have a consequence for failure. There's nothing in the rules that says players can't purchase attachments at character creation (provided they can afford the cost, something that can be tough given how few credits a PC begins with by default), so it's pretty much up to the individual GM.

2) I kinda answered this already, but I disallow modifications at character creation. I might make an exception if the PC offers up a **** good backstory explanation for why their heavy blaster pistol not only has the blaster actuating module with Pierce 2, but it'd need to be a really **** good backstory. After character creation, if they can find an NPC that's willing to do the work and the characters can meet their price, then I've no issue with letting an NPC make those Mechanics checks on the PC's behalf.

3) It's permanent. This is even stated in the book that once you fail to add a given modification, you can't ever install it without stripping out the entire attachment and starting from scratch. Of course, if you roll a Despair on the Mechanics check and fail, then you've destroyed the attachment and are required to start from scratch.

I run things like Donovan: Attachments are fine at character creation, mods are not. I have a house rule that once you've installed a mod on an item you need to use said item in play (this means actual combat for weapons, not just taking them out behind the barn for a few practice shots) for at least one adventure before you can install another mod. This keeps the power curve a little smoother.

As for having NPCs do it, sure thing. Not every group is going to have an awesome mechanic. Mine does, so it's never been an issue (Intellect 6, Mechanics 3, two ranks in Inventor) but it makes perfect sense. I'd have them pay up front based on how good the mechanic is - maybe something like 50 credits per skill rank and Intellect rank. That way they can choose if they want to take their chances on the cheap guy who works out of a stall outside the starport, or the professional gunsmith/armour tech with a successful business.

1. Yes. I consider many named weapons to be base models with factory installed attachments. A.i. the DL-44 is a standard Heavy Blaster Pistol with non-modded attachments for an extra price. That price is much higher then a Mechanic would pay doing it himself. And again, no mods.

2. I would make them do this in-game. A friendly PC doing it or paying a custom weapons shop at a much higher rate then doing it yourself.

3. Permanent.

All of this is up to you.

1. I would go with attachments and not mods. Unless it is a weapon with a specific back story signifgant to the character.

2. Like Litheon posted, If they are going to have a NPC do it then it would need to be costly and time consuming. Which could mean they may not have it available till the next session.

3. I would let the Time and Materials Available to help determine when they can redue the mod. Also what you determine caused the failure. It is your table and I say just be fair.

1. I would be fine with the opening scenes of the first session involving one of the PCs installing mods on his/her device(s). As long as the PC has credits for, the dice roll is a good way to get things rolling! (This depends, of course, on the opening scene of the session...if you're starting the adventure in media res, there won't be much time for the PC to install the mod right away but as soon as he has a chance, I'm fine with it)

The key point here is that the PC can spend his starting credits as normal, and then they are spent no matter what happens in the opening Mechanics roll. Not a problem for me, and can be a very cinematic experience to introduce the character.

EDIT: I'm thinking here of the opening scenes of the first episode of Firefly. Why not have the mechanic/engineer be introduced while he leans over a workbench, wearing a welding mask, soldering together some blaster parts or using a fusion cutter on a piece of armor? Sparks fly in the dark, the mechanic swears out loud as part of his overalls catch on fire. Fun stuff.

2. Sure, but it's gonna cost extra! Either they pay through the nose in credits, or it comes for an increase in Obligation. Or in AoR, it could be part of their requisition at an increased cost.

I think there was a thread that discussed this at length not too long ago. Might be worth a search.

3. The attachment simply won't support that mod anymore.

However, I once allowed a Triumph to allow the player to try again at an increased difficulty and more credits spent.

One way to think of "pre-packaged" modifications is that it's simply a weapon variant with the given attachments installed, and perhaps even further modifications. So instead of a blaster rifle modified to have a scope and a marksman's barrel, you could create the Merr-Sonn CS22 Sniper Blaster with a Built-in scope. You'd start with the blaster rifle profile knock of that number of hardpoints, up the cost by the cost of the attachments (scope, marksman's barrel), and even perhaps one modification as well, which would also be reflected in the cost. In this case, it's not a customized weapon as much as it is a specialized variant, which is harder to subsequently modify.

Of course, the attachments/mods would be reflected in the cost, which is prohibitive for beginning characters.

Copy what Donovan said.

Modifications are the "armor and weapon enchantments" of FFG's system -- they weren't designed for off-the-rack purchase. Further, you don't need them to do your job; it's a subsystem for mechanic PCs to contribute to the team in a way that makes sense, just as Force users have their own subsystem.

However, I can see pre-modded attachments, or weapons with modded attachments, making excellent adventure rewards.

("Six men ambushed me...the best of them carried this -- I call her Vera.")

Modifications are the "armor and weapon enchantments" of FFG's system -- they weren't designed for off-the-rack purchase.

I understand what you are meaning, but disagree somewhat. A Blaster Rifle off the shelf with a Weapon Sling and Telescopic Sight seems completely understandable as something you could buy off-the-rack. You can go to Walmart and buy such right now. Well not the "Blaster" part, but that would be awesome.

A280 Blaster Rifle? In my game that's a Blaster Rifle which comes with a Telescopic Optical Sight, costs 250 credits more, and only has 3 HPs remaining instead of 4. Model 434 "Deathhammer" Blaster Pistol. That's a Heavy Blaster Pistol which comes new with a Blaster Actuating Module, costs 1300 credits instead of 700, and has 2 HPs remaining instead of 3.

Modifications I wouldn't allow off the shelf. That's something an assembly line shouldn't be able to typically accomplish, but should be reserved for expert gun fiddlers.

Sturn, you're agree with me.

Sturn, you're agree with me.

Re-reading I guess I do. When I first read your post I inserted, "attachments" for "modifications" in the 2nd paragraph. Sorry.

Throwing in my thoughts - I did allow selection of Attachments at character creation but not modifications. My group was more interested in burning through their starting pool and spent most of it on XP rather than credits, so the one person who did elect to use attachments only had one. The rest may not have been aware of the option - but they instead spent money on other useful equipment, and the attachments will be 'available' later with some work tracking them down, so it's not like they missed out.

Possibly a little late to address with the player, but I'd ask them to run things like that past you in the future, and see if they're willing to trade the modifications back in for the credits - and if it's enough, perhaps for some of that starting XP back. Barring that, you're going to have a character with a very powerful weapon compared to the rest of the group - which isn't horribly unbalanced, especially if some of your early rewards are attachments (sans mods).

This pages name made me little bit confused first time reading after I had just looked at the EotE CRB about "Attachments & Modifications"

People seem to throw "modification" in to situations when they are talking about "attachment."

So correct if I'm wrong but:

1. Attachment is (example Augmented Spin Barrel) that takes out your equipment's HP
2. Modification is, as it sounds, modification to the Attachment (see part 1)
3. Attachment can be Modified, specific number of times as per EotE CRP p.187 & Attachments Modification Options, and these don't take up HP of the said weapon.

Sleepless night and trying to get my head around this thing Need more coffee

Yes Routa. But, like myself, some of us end up confusing the two titles. A.i. "If I modify my weapon to have an augmented spin barrel", when we really should be saying, "if I attach an augmented spin barrel to my weapon".

Longer Answer:

Attachment : The physical item you attach to your weapon. You just need credits and spare HPs. You don't need a skill roll to attach them, just "a few minutes of uninterrupted work". Example: I buy a Weapon Sling and take a few minutes to attach it to my Blaster Rifle. Cumbersome rating is instantly reduced by 1.

Modification : Alterations made to some Attachments using Mechanics skill. These are upgrades (in fact that may have been a less confusing title for them?). These require a Mechanics skill roll and 100 credits for "spare parts" to modify the attachment. The more modifications you make the more difficult the Mechanics check becomes. Example: After attaching my Weapon Sling, I'm a Mechanic and notice I could make some alterations to it to convert it from a simple shoulder sling to a nifty one-point chest mounted sling. In game terms I use a Mechanics roll to do this and must pay 100 credits for space parts such as extra leather strapping, a new buckle, and a new side clip for the rifle. If I succeed the modded Weapon Sling now also gives me Quick Draw.

People seem to throw "modification" in to situations when they are talking about "attachment."

You are entirely correct. This is the unfortunate reality of gamers having gamed in too many systems for them to adequately parse terms in their memory

It happens with "attachment" & "modification," also with "talents," "skills," "powers," and "power upgrades." Some people do use these nearly interchangeably. Also "Force points" and "Destiny Points."

It also happens when people start throwing in proper terms from other game systems or settings: "abilities" instead of characteristics, "race" instead of species, "hacking" instead of slicing, "Spot" and "Bluff" instead of Perception and Deception, and of course "DM" instead of GM.

Nobody's perfect, and I'm sure many of us are guilty of substituting terms every now and again Usually one can tell what they're talking about by reading in context (as was done just above), but sometimes (especially in instances coupled with exceptionally bad syntax and grammar) it is truly too confusing to tell what a poster is trying to say.