I know people love their Y-wings with Ion Cannons. Gold Squadron pilots have become a staple in many lists. That being said, I see a new king of the Ion Turret hill in the Outrider.

Think of it. The Y-wing or Hwk can both equip Ion Turrets at a cost of 5 points. The Y-wing has a total of 8 damage that it can take as a stock ship, has a pretty sucky set of actions, and the maneuver dial is lacking. With the Ion, using a Gold Sq pilot, you're looking at 23 points, using a weapon that only has a reach out to range 2.

The YT-2400 on the other hand, has 10 damage, a crew slot, a missile (which most people seem to favour over torpedoes), much better actions (adding a barrel roll), and using the Outrider title can equip an Ion CANNON for 8 points (Upgrade plus title), that extends the Ion reach out to range 3 rather than 1-2 as with the Ion Turret. The maneuver dial is one of the big unknowns, but based of the larger YT-1300 being as maneuverable as it is, I'd wager that the 2400 dial will be slightly better.

We're not sure yet what the generic pilots on the YT-2400 are just yet, or their cost, but seeing as Dash Rendar is 36 points, and the other pilots are below him in skill, one could assume that we'd probably see a YT Generic for around 25-26 points??

With the Tankiness of the YT-2400, who else thinks we'll see these come to the table? I can imagine one running alongside the 1300, making life miserable for opponents.

Of all of the ships that FFG has released to date or announced, this is the one I've been waiting for.

I like the idea. The one issue I have with it, and I'm seeing it with my W4 list building as well... If you're spending lots of points of a ship, (>30 in this case) you want to be able to make things go BOOM. The issue I'm having with Y wings in list building right now is that it's hard to justify a 3rd ship that only does 1 damage... or a 5th ship that supplements those pesky Z-95 that can only do 1 damage...

So, I think that's going to be the same issue with the outrider..

Umm, your guess for the generic YT-2400 price is way off. Unlike the YT-1300, it has the same statline as the other ships. So, assuming standard pricing, it is looking like it is 30 pts for the generic YT-2400.

The question then becomes, is 38 pts worth it for a dedicated Ion Turret?

30 points for base? so Dash is only 6 points more for a higher PS and ability.... I think it will be around 26-28 for the base one.

I think the 38 point turret will see some play. But the 48-52 point heavy laser cannon fully loaded one will be used constantly, like falcons now.

Yes, general wisdom of pricing is that each point of PS and an ability costs 1 pt. Dash is PS 7 to the generic's PS 2. And his ability isn't one I would consider to be super powerful, so 30 base sounds about right. 29pts at the very least.

I think the 38 point turret will see some play. But the 48-52 point heavy laser cannon fully loaded one will be used constantly, like falcons now.

52??? How about 58??

Dash Rendar + Push the Limit + Engine Upgrade + Heavy Laser Cannon + Kyle Katarn + Outrider (58)

30 points for base? so Dash is only 6 points more for a higher PS and ability.... I think it will be around 26-28 for the base one.

It's hard to guess. I really hope that the 2400 generic pilot is less than 30 points, but when you look at both the Shuttle and Firespray, ships that didn't suffer any stat loss between their unique pilots and the generic one there was only a 6 point difference.

I think the 38 point turret will see some play. But the 48-52 point heavy laser cannon fully loaded one will be used constantly, like falcons now.

I don't know about the HLC, as it limits you to a range 2-3. But a range 1-3 Ion can really mess things up. I get that you can likely Barrel roll to get into that Range 2-3 for the HLC (although I have to re-read the new large ship barrel roll rules), but having to do so and spending an action to do so might be counterintuitive when you could be using that action for a focus..

As many have said, a ship that is near or over 40 points that only deals one damage is in no way cost efficient. Also, I think that the HLC+Title combo is overpriced. It is made for Dash's card ability, but he will be powerful with just the HLC and not the turret. I would be willing to bet, after the first several weeks with Wave 5 after players have tested it with a variety of lists and opponents, that the most common build will settle down to just having the HLC without the title. The strengths of the HLC with the title will not outweigh the weaknesses, including its high price. Especially with Dash, it will not be a huge issue to make sure you get a shot with your HLC, and if you can't you still always have a weaker 360 shot and maintain offense at range 1. That range 1 donut hole is an enormous weakness that many ships will easily be able to exploit, especially with the rise of Phantoms and the new Stay on Target card.

I agree that the cost for the generic will likely be 29-31. It has the same attack as the Outer Rim Smuggler, but that extra agility die is HUGE! Also, a better shield/hull ratio (with the same total), and that stock barrel roll action will open up a mountain of possibilities, even with the recent rule change. Not to mention, +1 pilot skill over the ORS. I'd guess 30, but we should know soon enough.

I think the 38 point turret will see some play. But the 48-52 point heavy laser cannon fully loaded one will be used constantly, like falcons now.

52??? How about 58??

Dash Rendar + Push the Limit + Engine Upgrade + Heavy Laser Cannon + Kyle Katarn + Outrider (58)

Time will tell, but speed will be key in the wave 5 meta. Dash will be running all over the place, since he hits just as hard at range 3, and is ignoring obstacles. He then becomes a 3 maybe even 4 agility target, since he did just leapfrog an obstacle. Enemy ships having to actually turn and fly around obstacles will hate him.

If you keep it to 55 pts you can play 3 a wings with him. Its basically like the Zs with han, but they can keep up with dash if necessary. Basically you're trying to lead your enemy on a merry chase the whole game. A recon specialist alone instead of kyle, ptl, and eu will play out much like your build above, in the sense that you'll be able to pick more 3 turns/banks/3 or 4 straights instead of green 2 plus boost. This allows you to use VI for phantoms, or predator as well. Outrider needs to be approached slightly differently than the falcon.

Yeah I'll add in that a ship that can only ever do 1 damage is just not worth that many points.

What makes the Y-Wing or to a point the HWK effective is that they're cheap, and in the case of the Y-Wing you can make a 3 dice attack at range 1 if you need to.

Yeah, the change to a Large ship's Barrel Roll means that the Outrider isn't going to be that hard to pin down.

Looking at the Firespray VS YT-2400 VS ORS Disregarding Dials of course

ORS has same attack a 2 turret but has a lower PS, lower agility and loses a point on the shield to hull and doesn't have BR base. So adding the point for PS and adding a point for an extra shield at the cost of a hull puts it at 29 not counting the bonus agility and BR each of those are probably worth at least a point maybe the agility worth 2. That would put it at 32 pts

Compared to a BH it is better shield to hull, same agility, lower PS, and BR. So since the shield point cancels out the point for a lower PS this would suggest it at 33 points assuming a 2 attack turret=3 attack and an aux arc. Most players though would probably prefer the extra Die so we can cut another 2 points since Expose/Opportunist seem to indicate an attack die is worth alot even with the lesser arc coverage which when we add a point for BR we get to 32 again

These are all just my assumptions basing it off of ships available not knowing the dial an looking at it in a vacuum (not paying attention to Dash being PS7 for 36+ability) Using Dash's value and the traditional 1pt per PS and ability though would put at 30 leading me to believe the dial isn't quite as good as a Falcon/Firespray but that it won't be as bad as a HWK/Lambda.

Of course me using whole point values is also rather crude a BR might only be worth a half point and the PS differences might not be just a flat 1pt it could be less and the shield to hull is probably not as defined as a full 1pt like the mods are when built into a ship

Using http://cardcreator.atelierdufaucon.com/ it says a PS2 YT-2400 would be 28.84 pts using the Falcons dial which if it is 30 pts as speculation suggests it could have a better dial than the Falcon (or the card creators formula is just a touch off)

Honestly, I think any and all point formulas have been off since Wave 3.

Ion Cannon plus Anti-Pursuit lasers, yes? Move slow, get in the way, ion people to make sure they ram you.

Looking at the Firespray VS YT-2400 VS ORS Disregarding Dials of course

ORS has same attack a 2 turret but has a lower PS, lower agility and loses a point on the shield to hull and doesn't have BR base. So adding the point for PS and adding a point for an extra shield at the cost of a hull puts it at 29 not counting the bonus agility and BR each of those are probably worth at least a point maybe the agility worth 2. That would put it at 32 pts

Compared to a BH it is better shield to hull, same agility, lower PS, and BR. So since the shield point cancels out the point for a lower PS this would suggest it at 33 points assuming a 2 attack turret=3 attack and an aux arc. Most players though would probably prefer the extra Die so we can cut another 2 points since Expose/Opportunist seem to indicate an attack die is worth alot even with the lesser arc coverage which when we add a point for BR we get to 32 again

These are all just my assumptions basing it off of ships available not knowing the dial an looking at it in a vacuum (not paying attention to Dash being PS7 for 36+ability) Using Dash's value and the traditional 1pt per PS and ability though would put at 30 leading me to believe the dial isn't quite as good as a Falcon/Firespray but that it won't be as bad as a HWK/Lambda.

Of course me using whole point values is also rather crude a BR might only be worth a half point and the PS differences might not be just a flat 1pt it could be less and the shield to hull is probably not as defined as a full 1pt like the mods are when built into a ship

Using http://cardcreator.atelierdufaucon.com/ it says a PS2 YT-2400 would be 28.84 pts using the Falcons dial which if it is 30 pts as speculation suggests it could have a better dial than the Falcon (or the card creators formula is just a touch off)

Honestly, I think any and all point formulas have been off since Wave 3.

2 points regarding formulas, the creators of that site have said that the formula they use is FAR from perfect. Doesn't get the right values for a number of current ships, but they are working on it. Also, while there may or may not have been a formula at one point in the design process, such a formula no longer works. It can probably get you to a ballpark number, but they assign point values to cards via playtesting. Not to mention, the more options there are in the game, the number of playtests of each new card must increase as well. (On that note, does FFG allow public playtests, assuming an NDA?) There may be a hundred or more matches played with a new card after its card text is finalized to decide if it should cost 1 or 2 points, and the only way to tell is to see what it can be paired with and test those combos extensively. Cards with completely new abilities and/or really unique dials likely come at an even higher testing quota. I'd bet the reason the Defender costs so much is its white 4K. The YT2400 likely needs a huge number of tests as it is the first large base that has the barrel roll stock.

Point being, this far into the game, there is likely no one way that is used to determine card price, and I'd guess that whatever ways they come to those numbers, much less math is involved than one might think.

There may be a hundred or more matches played with a new card after its card text is finalized to decide if it should cost 1 or 2 points, and the only way to tell is to see what it can be paired with and test those combos extensively. Cards with completely new abilities and/or really unique dials likely come at an even higher testing quota. I'd bet the reason the Defender costs so much is its white 4K. The YT2400 likely needs a huge number of tests as it is the first large base that has the barrel roll stock.

Point being, this far into the game, there is likely no one way that is used to determine card price, and I'd guess that whatever ways they come to those numbers, much less math is involved than one might think.

I completely agree that there is probably less math work on their part than we think there is, but the more ships that are out the "easier" it is for us to try to speculate where we think point levels will be. We can look at a ship with a P A D H S statline and say "Hey that statline is pretty close to X ship and assuming this about the dial we can figure it will cost Y points and be within a given ballpark.

That said I think the hardest things to quantify are in order Dials(white K specifically), Auxillary arcs, turreted primaries, Unique actions (cloak) and pilot abilities (Dash's could be worth 2 not the 1 we are assuming for example)

I remember seeing something like you said where X-wings are 21pts for a PS2 Rookie because if they made them PS1 and 20 pts we would have 5X builds, and/or that Academies were 12 pts so you can't fit 9 into a list, Bounty Hunters are PS 3 and 33 so if you ran 3 you sacrificed upgrades for them rather, etc

Figuring out a ships cost just based on it's stats is difficult, sure.

Figuring out the cost of the different pilots once we get the cost of one pilot is another. I just don't see how the YT-2400 is going to be less than 30. Dash's ability isn't one I would think of as more than 1 pt.

I remember seeing something like you said where X-wings are 21pts for a PS2 Rookie because if they made them PS1 and 20 pts we would have 5X builds, and/or that Academies were 12 pts so you can't fit 9 into a list, Bounty Hunters are PS 3 and 33 so if you ran 3 you sacrificed upgrades for them rather, etc

This^^

I really think that, particularly for upgrade cards but ship cards also, the OTHER cards they will/can be paired with help determine the price. Let's say a Wave 5 card has great synergy with a Wave 3 card, it may effect the price of the new wave 5 card because the previous card costs X, and the two together give a new, unforeseen benefit. Stay on Target+Navigator, for instance.

Playtesting, playtesting, playtesting. For all the reasons you mentioned. I agree that X-wings are 21 points so that we can't play 5. Same idea with Bounty Hunters, Lambda Shuttles, TIE Fighters, Phantoms. In fact, based on points efficiency, if the new Z95 costs 12, the TIE Fighter SHOULD probably cost 11, but then we could field nine of them. I expect the base cost will be about 30, allowing up to three with limited upgrades, but that is three 2 die turrets. They will last longer than a triple ORS squad, but they will do about the same damage, which is more than a little light in the current meta. Having said that, it still surprises me that Han Solo isn't 47 points, because it is possible to field him with two Outer Rim Smugglers. Again, though, the likely reason that players don't do so is the lack of firepower that triple Firesprays can offer them. Based on these observations, it would probably be fair that the TIE Advanced costs 20 instead of 21, so we could field five. I see that unlikely, though, because they are notably more similar to an X-wing than many admit. But, that is a discussion for another thread.

Anyway, I wanted to mention that I agreed with you, and I'd guess the PS2 2400 is 30 points. If/when we get a second pilot we will be more sure, assuming they don't show them all at once.

For the cost of a lowest PS Outrider with Ion Cannon, it is likely bordering on the points for two Y-Wings with Ion Turret. You'll get more coverage with both of them combined, more dice to throw at making the ion attack hit, and the possibility of ioning more than one ship per turn.

The Outrider-less Ion Cannon upgrade is cheap enough that I could see someone throwing it on a kitted-out high PS YT-2400 pilot just to have as an option when opportunity presents itself, though.

Too many points for a 1 damage weapon platform.

Figuring out a ships cost just based on it's stats is difficult, sure.

Figuring out the cost of the different pilots once we get the cost of one pilot is another. I just don't see how the YT-2400 is going to be less than 30. Dash's ability isn't one I would think of as more than 1 pt.

I think it could be worth more than one being able to drive through asteroids I would say is an Amazing ability. It helps new players learning to maneuver large ships and for more advanced players they can use it especially combined with BR to keep ships from getting to range 1 and/or using asteroids as cover for extra defense dice. Heck I might intentionally cluster asteroids up so I can fly through them and force the opponent to stay further away

I think the 38 point turret will see some play. But the 48-52 point heavy laser cannon fully loaded one will be used constantly, like falcons now.

This. The first thought that popped into my head upon reading the preview on W5 was something like this: "I'm gonna slap the title and a heavy laser cannon on that bad boy and make ships go boom." I feel like tossing an ion cannon on that ship would be a huge waste. Would you have a nice range to be able to use the ion cannon? Yes. Is it awesome when your ion cannon hits causing a ship to move in a predictable manner? Yes. Controlling your oppenent is a cool aspect of ion cannons/turrets. But you're using a big ship and a whole lot of points for something that essentially limits your damage output. Toss the ion turret on a low cost ship like a generic Y-wing. Or better yet Kyle Katarn's HWK that will supplement the Outrider by tossing out free focus tokens.

Here's the real question.

Can an Ion cannon on a big ship, disable other big ships in one shot? Because it should. It's a larger cannon on a larger vehicle.

If you ask me, that ability would make an Ion YT-2400 extremely viable.