First I want to say, I GOT RECON SPECIALIST TO WORK FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THE GAME (once), WOOHOO!

Now that I got that out of the way, I decided to take out Sensor Jammer off Echo and gave her FCS and the BH RS.

100 pts

Echo + VI + ACD + FCS + RC

BH + RS

OGP + Vader

Opponent

100 pts

Chewie + Gunner + C-3PO

2xBlue B-wings with Advanced Sensors

The quick summary is, it's the other guy's first time playing this list (and a large base for that matter), so he bumped everyone a few times and landed Chewbacca on an asteroid early in the game. He improved a lot later on and never hit an asteroid again.

We both took the approach very very slow, and engaged horizontally in the middle. I was able to take Chewie down to 7 hull points left after the initial barrage, and was trying to K-turn the BH to finish Chewie off, but ended up barely bumping into his trailing B-wings. At that point, it was too late to chase Chewbacca and I just decided to take out a B-wing with the combined power of the OGP and BH. In that fateful bump, this happened (the one time I couldn't use recon specialist)

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=9CE700337B3521B9%2125701

4 eyeballs...

Anyway, I was still able to kill the B-Wing the next turn, but could have taken less damage on the BH and the OGP (I had to use Vader to do the last damage since the 2 crit cards he got from the OGP did nothing).

After that it was just a war of attrition, with the Falcon chasing Echo around the table when he can or trading blows with the BH.

There was one shot where he target locked the BH, and I decided to let Echo be in Chewie's R3 to set up for my next move, and Chewie rolls 2 hits and a crit and Echo rolls 4 eyeballs and a blank. Hmm... Sensor Jammer or Flight Instructor would have come in handy here. The crit disabled my action bar which I was luckily able to get back a turn later.

At the 75 min mark, where we agreed to play since we're practicing for a tournament, I had a modified win with 25-24 (killed his B-wing, he killed my doomshuttle).

We went on to finish the game with me annihilated, even if it didn't count anymore.

This makes me wonder again what to do for Echo. Sensor Jammer might have come in handy, since any time someone doesn't have a focus, I can take a small risk getting closer in and maybe taking a pot shot. Otherwise, Echo didn't shot this entire game, so that's 42 points flying around doing nothing, while being chased by a ship that can fly around chasing and still shoot other things.

I'm really at a loss at how to modify my list to either make the BH more resilient (Recon Specialist hasn't worked for me in over 10 games now) or make Echo more resilient and can actually take a shot (as we all know, 4-5 agility dice is not that great, especially against Gunner/Luke).

I'm definitely keeping Echo, BH, and OGP, and VI/ACD is not changeable. I'd like to keep RC so matches against Whisper/Soontir/Turr+VI will work ok.

Doomshuttle is definitely staying, since 50% of the time I used it, it has been the MVP causing the last hit with Vader (otherwise I'll still have nightmares of the 1 hull pint Airen or Wes flying around for 3-4 turns not dying).

So that gives me 5 points to play with on things to put on the BH and Echo.

Options I have so far are:

Sensor Jammer on Echo (total 99 pts)

Flight Instructor on BH (99)

Recon Specialist on BH (98), maybe with FCS on Echo (100)

Tactician on BH and FCS on Echo (99)

Gunner on BH (100)

Am I missing any options?

Thanks in advance!

This list is similar to mine.

It should give you 8p to play around with. Which would mean you can fit a HLC and Inteligence Agent in there for example. Or Run Tactican on both the BH and Echo with a Sensor Jammer on Echo.

Thanks for the feedback Fnords! I actually tried 2 AP and 4 BSP versions of this list with Echo, and both of them the APs didn't do much other than give points to the opponent. I think I'm just not very good at using APs to their maximum potential.

Have you found Sensor Jammer to work well on the Echo? Or do people just take focus all the time and nullify it?

****, I was trying to get Tactician on BH *and* Sensor Jammer on Echo to work, 101 points unless I drop Rebel Captive.

I wanted to have the BH support Echo by stressing people and if they don't clear the stress or are more predictable, Echo can swoop in to take a pot shot knowing that Sensor Jammer will save her 1 hit from that stressed person. Having Rebel Captive is important too since that'll double stress someone if they shoot at her.

Grr...there's nothing else I can really remove though. :\

from these options...

Sensor Jammer on Echo (total 99 pts)

Flight Instructor on BH (99)

Recon Specialist on BH (98), maybe with FCS on Echo (100)

Tactician on BH and FCS on Echo (99)

Gunner on BH (100)

ig go with...

Sensor Jammer on Echo (total 99 pts)

Tactician on BH and FCS on Echo (99)

or perhaps

Gunner on BH (100)

both those top options are my prference. its hard to say whats better, i suspect SJ on echo is ur safest bet. it will make it a sob to hit, and its already hard to hit as is.

ig go with...

Sensor Jammer on Echo (total 99 pts)

Tactician on BH and FCS on Echo (99)

or perhaps

Gunner on BH (100)

both those top options are my prference. its hard to say whats better, i suspect SJ on echo is ur safest bet. it will make it a sob to hit, and its already hard to hit as is.

Haha, great minds think alike! I want to do Tactician on BH and Sensor Jammer on Echo, but unfortunately that doesn't work, unless I get rid of Vet Instinct, which is probably a bad idea.

I do shoot a lot at R2 with the BH, so Tactician will be pretty useful. Even without SJ, it should still benefit Echo and everyone else that they don't want to get double stressed shooting Echo or at least they 're either predicable the next turn or lose their actions.

Take away RC and put Tactician on both BH and Echo. And sensor jammer on Echo I think is the best.

As you say its far easier to fly against stressed ships.

Interesting suggestion Fnords! The only problem with that is:

1) how do I deal with Whisper or other PS9 hyper maneuverable ships (Soontir, Turr+VI, Vader)?

2) At 100 points, I do lose the ability to choose initiative. Is Sensor Jammer on Echo worth it?

Thanks!

Interesting suggestion Fnords! The only problem with that is:

1) how do I deal with Whisper or other PS9 hyper maneuverable ships (Soontir, Turr+VI, Vader)?

2) At 100 points, I do lose the ability to choose initiative. Is Sensor Jammer on Echo worth it?

Thanks!

I would say the best way to deal with them is to avoid them, but we both know that even if it's possible (Echo have the right tools even if the PS is the problem) it's not a sure-thing.

RC is ofc very nice, and I know how good it feels to have it on your ship when you see Whisper or Turr.

Sensor Jammer will not help a lot against Sontir, Whisper due to them usually taking a focus (missing TL icon will do that once you get into position with a high PS ship), more so if they know you are running it. So to answer your question, Sensor Jammer doesn't really help enough against them.

As you say this is a tricky one,

Going through it again (about 1000th time) I would say that it's seems to favor Tactician on BH and FCS on Echo, 99p and more likely to win initiative. And then try to hit those nimble ships at least once at range 2 with BH to make them more predictable.

Just thought about another fun take at this list that might be very good.

Thanks again. Very good point about SJ not really useful on any PS9+ pilots, especially the maneuverable ones.

Looks like the best "take all comers" build out with BH is:

Tactician on BH and FCS on Echo (99)

Just thought about another fun take at this list that might be very good.

"Echo"

Veteran Instincts

Rebel Captive

Advanced Cloaking Device

Kath Scarlet

Omicron Group Pilot

Darth Vader

Total: 100

Kath has a bit higher PS and can stress the opponent at every range. Might be worth trying. I know I will

Oh wow, that's an EXCELLENT idea. She's more likely to stress people than BH+Tactician. Definitely solves the issue of the BH not being as useful with just Tactician.

I *really* like this list. Will try it out tomorrow for a couple final practice games and report back! Thanks

If I get 2 more games in, I may compare:

Kath vs

BH + Gunner

One is control build (though not guaranteed) and the other is non-deniable attack build.

LIST02

"Echo"

Veteran Instincts

Intelligence Agent

Advanced Cloaking Device

Kath Scarlet

Veteran Instincts

Omicron Group Pilot

Darth Vader

Total: 99

I think LIST02 has potential to because Kath will most likely shot first making it possible to shot at Whisper at agility 2 AND/OR potential stress

such good list suggestions! While I hate to give up Rebel Captive, this could help if I can get whisper/Soontir in Kath's targets, and go toe-to-toe with the 3 PS9 lists (Soontir, Turr+VI, whisper+VI, Vader)

It can even shoot at the same time as Han if he doesn't take VI, allowing for simultaneous death if it comes down to that.

I've tried Intel Agent a few times and the results have been mixed. I'll give it a shot again. I think at the end game it'll probably be useful against the PS9 ships if I'm close enough with them to either arc dodge or at least get a shot.

The question is always, if I get a shot at them by using Intel Agent, and they shoot back first before I can cloak, Echo might not survive the shot. It'll take some pretty fancy flying to make it work... Hopefully Kath or OGP is still around to help deny options in that case.

such good list suggestions! While I hate to give up Rebel Captive, this could help if I can get whisper/Soontir in Kath's targets, and go toe-to-toe with the 3 PS9 lists (Soontir, Turr+VI, whisper+VI, Vader)

It can even shoot at the same time as Han if he doesn't take VI, allowing for simultaneous death if it comes down to that.

I've tried Intel Agent a few times and the results have been mixed. I'll give it a shot again. I think at the end game it'll probably be useful against the PS9 ships if I'm close enough with them to either arc dodge or at least get a shot.

The question is always, if I get a shot at them by using Intel Agent, and they shoot back first before I can cloak, Echo might not survive the shot. It'll take some pretty fancy flying to make it work... Hopefully Kath or OGP is still around to help deny options in that case.

IA is mostly filler, but it can help at some cases, Echo is one of the pilots that benefits most from knowing where the opponent might end up. If you really want to win the initiative bid you can take it off and have 98p or put Tactician or FCS on Echo, could even grab a seismic charge for Kath if you want (=

True, Intel Agent is useful sometimes, I've been 50-50 on its use.

Tactician would be interesting, since Echo can get into R2 of people pretty easily, though it'll be hard if a PS9 person can boost and barrel roll. FCS as you said, definitely good against Falcons, but I usually don't even bother shooting them because I get shot back at with gunner/Luke.

I almost think giving Kath Merc CoPilot might be worth it to make it easier for her to crit and/or cause stress. But then she costs more than Echo and losing her would hurt. But it would also take attention off Echo. Very interesting.

True, Intel Agent is useful sometimes, I've been 50-50 on its use.

Tactician would be interesting, since Echo can get into R2 of people pretty easily, though it'll be hard if a PS9 person can boost and barrel roll. FCS as you said, definitely good against Falcons, but I usually don't even bother shooting them because I get shot back at with gunner/Luke.

I almost think giving Kath Merc CoPilot might be worth it to make it easier for her to crit and/or cause stress. But then she costs more than Echo and losing her would hurt. But it would also take attention off Echo. Very interesting.

Was thinking the same about Merc Pilot. Problem with that is you don't get initative vs Soontir/Turr+VI/Whisper+VI/Vader

I really dont think it's worth it, Even if you're very lucky with tactician and Kath (rolls 2 crits at range 2, one get through and other canceled resulting in double stress).

I would stick with 99p list (LIST02) and playtest it against some of the lists that run Soontir/Turr+VI/Whisper+VI/Vader, and see where you end up.

Agreed Tactician is not worth it, though Merc Copilot might be with Whisper and interceptors usually floating around R3 taking pot shots. But yeah, the initiative bid does worry me.

Unfortunately, I think the local meta will be mostly Falcons (Han or Chewie of different C-3PO/Gunner builds) with X/B/Z escorts. There's probably 1-2 guys out of 10 who will play the 3xPS9 lists, and the threat of Kath stress and Vader shuttle, if I fly the arcs well, should keep them dodging, letting Echo do her work.

Yeah, after thinking about it all night and discussing with you, I think I'll playtest

LIST02

Kath + VI

Echo + VI + ACD

OGP + Vader

99

and

Echo + VI + ACD + Rebel + FCS

BH + Tactician

OGP + Vader

99

(still tempted to run BH+Gunner and drop the FCS on Echo, since Gunner is SO good)

The biggest issue i see from phantom players, are that they totally overestimate what 4 agility dice provide. You are not likely to get 2 saves if you don't have focus, so damage will get through, likely every turn from a falcon. If he has also gunner + predator, he can literally force you into receiving one damage per turn, or try to nullify the damage with your tokens to then again, get shot, this time withouth tokens.

That's why i prefer to have FCS + Gunner + VI + ADC. It costs a ton yes, but it allows you to use dodge as your main action, and you just shoot, and gunner and FCS will do the rest. Sometimes you can afford to go focus to be offensive. Whisper have a much easier time doing this, since he can dodge, shoot, and get a focus token, being able to nullify full damage from a gunner falcon.

The biggest issue i see from phantom players, are that they totally overestimate what 4 agility dice provide. You are not likely to get 2 saves if you don't have focus, so damage will get through, likely every turn from a falcon. If he has also gunner + predator, he can literally force you into receiving one damage per turn, or try to nullify the damage with your tokens to then again, get shot, this time withouth tokens.

That's why i prefer to have FCS + Gunner + VI + ADC. It costs a ton yes, but it allows you to use dodge as your main action, and you just shoot, and gunner and FCS will do the rest. Sometimes you can afford to go focus to be offensive. Whisper have a much easier time doing this, since he can dodge, shoot, and get a focus token, being able to nullify full damage from a gunner falcon.

I agree with you. But I must say that even if the 4 i defence is not going to save you every time, I feel that my experience with them points to Echo and Whisper both destroy more points then they lose me.

Like your idea of Whisper and will try to build a list around it.

Tbh main reason I fly Echo is because its so **** fun, so nimble and felxible and still able to hurt the opponent.

Agree with Fnords, I wouldn't have all these issues trying to figure out how not to die to Falcon+Gunner if I didn't love flying Echo so much. That's one of the reason I truly dislike the Falcon because it nullifies the fun of flying Echo completely, and pretty much makes it a game of running away.

DreadStar, definitely a cool suggestion. I don't think I've even considered it because I was trying to make Echo more defensive and forgot the key rule, "offense is the best defense"

It's definitely good against the Falcon, though still dangerous against the Facon+gunner, since you can only use the Evade token once. You either have to let the 1 hit go through, or use up your Evade token and Han starts over again. I guess it does give me the flexbility of taking an evade or focus against the Falcon and firing at someone else effectively. Definitely very useful against a turtling Soontir or cloaked Whisper+Focus. I like it!

One other idea I had this morning was:

Echo + VI + ACD + Sensor Jammer + Intel Agent

BH + Intel Agent

OGP + Vader + Intel Agent

99

Since the 2 big ships are the ones that are usually tangling with the other ships, it's more likely than Echo to be in R1-2 and let me see the dials so Echo can move appropriately. SJ helps with that defense if I know that PS9 pilots are going to crash into me, each other, or choose not to clear their stress, then Echo can swoop in. If they're going to be stress free, then Echo stays away.

Any thoughts on that?

Ok, gonna try these lists:

LIST02

Kath + VI

Echo + VI + ACD

OGP + Vader

99

or

Echo + VI + ACD + Gunner + FCS

BH

OGP + Vader

99

or

Echo + VI + ACD + Sensor Jammer + Intel Agent

BH + Intel Agent

OGP + Vader + Intel Agent

99

The biggest issue i see from phantom players, are that they totally overestimate what 4 agility dice provide. You are not likely to get 2 saves if you don't have focus, so damage will get through, likely every turn from a falcon. If he has also gunner + predator, he can literally force you into receiving one damage per turn, or try to nullify the damage with your tokens to then again, get shot, this time withouth tokens.

Forgot to address this one. As a mostly Imperial player, I've had zero faith in agility dice (3 or 4) since my first few games trying out Stealth Device, I definitely don't put much weight into them, which is why there's all the Sensor Jammer or Flight Instructor talk. I need a way to keep my Phantom safe from 3 attack dice with Gunner.

I still don't see how Whisper or even Echo who keeps an Evade or Focus to defend will be useful against Han Falcon (shooting first or with VI), since you're most likely going to use it up on the first shot, with just 2 agility dice, and then Gunner triggers again. I guess the answer is to just avoid Han? Which is what I"ve been doing and results in Echo not firing on anyone the entire game.

Agree with Fnords, I wouldn't have all these issues trying to figure out how not to die to Falcon+Gunner if I didn't love flying Echo so much. That's one of the reason I truly dislike the Falcon because it nullifies the fun of flying Echo completely, and pretty much makes it a game of running away.

DreadStar, definitely a cool suggestion. I don't think I've even considered it because I was trying to make Echo more defensive and forgot the key rule, "offense is the best defense"

It's definitely good against the Falcon, though still dangerous against the Facon+gunner, since you can only use the Evade token once. You either have to let the 1 hit go through, or use up your Evade token and Han starts over again. I guess it does give me the flexbility of taking an evade or focus against the Falcon and firing at someone else effectively. Definitely very useful against a turtling Soontir or cloaked Whisper+Focus. I like it!

One other idea I had this morning was:

Echo + VI + ACD + Sensor Jammer + Intel Agent

BH + Intel Agent

OGP + Vader + Intel Agent

99

Since the 2 big ships are the ones that are usually tangling with the other ships, it's more likely than Echo to be in R1-2 and let me see the dials so Echo can move appropriately. SJ helps with that defense if I know that PS9 pilots are going to crash into me, each other, or choose not to clear their stress, then Echo can swoop in. If they're going to be stress free, then Echo stays away.

Any thoughts on that?

Ok, gonna try these lists:

LIST02

Kath + VI

Echo + VI + ACD

OGP + Vader

99

or

Echo + VI + ACD + Gunner + FCS

BH

OGP + Vader

99

or

Echo + VI + ACD + Sensor Jammer + Intel Agent

BH + Intel Agent

OGP + Vader + Intel Agent

99

I think 3 IA is overkill. If you want to run that list i recommend tactician on Echo and IA on BH.

BH being a large ship meaning more range on IA, due to larger base

WIth Whisper, if he doesn't have VI, you shoot first (iniative bid), therefore you have 4 agility dice, evade plus focus token.

Mathwise (and in my in game experience aswell), you are taking 1 damage per 2 turns with your phantom as long you are staying at range 2. It is even harder for the falcon to get through the 5 agi dice, 1 evade and 1 focus at range 3, but it is definitly dangerous to be at Range 1. It is really a rare event to get through more than 1 damage outside range 1 (never had happened to me, in the many matches i had already played against fat Hans with predator + luke, the ones with the best ability to get consistent damage rolls).

If you can keep distances (i do this blocking and K-turning plus Yorr when needed), you should not have much troubles surviving a fat Han (non VI).

VI Han is pretty much a hard counter to Whisper, as he already is to Echo. **** happens, the good thing is that other lists have an easier time dealing with him, so you may not see at the top tables.

Anyways, sorry for the kind of derail, i know you are invested into making Echo work, the best advice, in my opinion, would be to get 5 Academy pilots which are what deals better with YT's, and cockblock and do as much damage you can to him, forcing him to run away from them while your Echo can kill his escorts (and finish it off later on). Trying to make Echo so defensive will not only work that well against a Fat Han, but you are also gimping yourself in other match ups where Echo can just arc dodge. And against chewie, you shouldn't have much trouble imho.

Thanks again for all the advice! @DreadStar - I did play 4 BSP once, but am just not good enough with it to make them threats that people care about. I crashed into myself and landed on asteroids. Need more practice on that before I attempt 5 TIEs

Completely agree with making the others a bigger target, which is why I didn't want to put Gunner+FCS on Echo, since no one cares about the others.

I ended up flying this today at the FLGS tournament and went 3-1 and finished 3rd out of 13, not too bad I'd say. The game I lost I didn't fly that well, so I deserved that one. Will post a battle report later tonight to get your comments.

Echo + VI + ACD + RC + FCS (40)

BH + Tactician (35)

OGP + Vader (24)

99 pts

I may consider different crew members in the future for BH and Echo, but man, FCS earned its weight in GOLD today. I was able to obliterate Falcons and B-wings with Echo like no tomorrow.