...I hated Warhammer Fantasy 3rd ed?

Seems like it's a very similar cards without the cards.

Was wondering if they made some nice modifications to the system or if most of the time:

WH3rd fans = SW fans

and

WH3rd haters = SW haters

Thanks

WH is fiddley and cluttered. Star Wars is not. WH has complexity for the sake of it, Star Wars does not. I think you'll enjoy it.

I'm not sure what one has to do with the other. You never explained what you disliked about WRPG.

I dislike most of WRPG 3rd because of all the paraphernalia, plus the dice are clunky, plus the options are too complicated and tedious. (I do like the magic mechanic though.) I'm not a fan of the setting either. However, I don't expect I will play anything other than EotE for a long while, even if I have to make my own adaptation for fantasy/historical stuff. The mechanics are hugely streamlined, and as close to perfect for what I want out of roleplaying as is possible. I thought nWoD was close, but this blows nWoD away.

I'm not sure what one has to do with the other. You never explained what you disliked about WRPG.

I dislike most of WRPG 3rd because of all the paraphernalia, plus the dice are clunky, plus the options are too complicated and tedious. (I do like the magic mechanic though.) I'm not a fan of the setting either. However, I don't expect I will play anything other than EotE for a long while, even if I have to make my own adaptation for fantasy/historical stuff. The mechanics are hugely streamlined, and as close to perfect for what I want out of roleplaying as is possible. I thought nWoD was close, but this blows nWoD away.

Well, I hated the rulebook, was kind of a mess. Sometimes, when I was looking for an info, I found bits of the answer here and there spread all over the book.

Most of the times, I couldn't find anything to answer our question.

But what I hated the most was the dices, and it seems like it's the same dices in SW.

On paper, the boon/bane and stuff looks nice but all those things came up way too often on the dices.

I know it was supposed to be a narrative game, but having a bunch of boons/banes and a comet/chaos star on almost every roll got annoying really fast.

The books and rules in Star Wars are better and I know exactly what you are talking about in regards to WH, there was one aspect of doing something with mages the specifics of which escapes me, but it was clearly something that should have been included in character generation or spell usage and was in another location entirely. I love FFGs stuff but they seriously need a game play editor to take a holistic look at how the game practically functions and then apply that view to layout of the information. There are details included in sections that are almost fluff and one wouldn't expect to find them, for example, everything related to medicine checks and healing should be on one page.

The SW games are more streamlined and simplified from WHFRP3. The rules are cleaner and concise, especially for PC advancement, and it's far less fiddly and cluttered. The bits I disliked - stance, the group mechanics, talent slotting, multiple cards - are all gone, leaving it feeling much more playable.

However, I'm not gonna lie - if you hate the concept of the custom dice that much, you won't like these either. Success/Fail, Advantage/Threat and Triumph/Despair are the core mechanic and much of the narrative revolves around them.

That said, I have a number of diehard d20 players who sneered at the concept initially, but came to love them. And I myself was sceptical at first.

Why not get the Beginner box and see if you like it? Playing through the scenario there will really determine whether you love or hate it.

I find that the rules for EotE and AoR are not well organized in the rule books either. There are no less than three places you need to look to get information on first aid. This does not include other methods of healing which are also in different places.

This is simply one example and there are several others. In several places the rules are all in one place. Unfortunately when this happens they are seldom as clear as they need to be. A couple examples off the top of my head is how criticals stack with one another. Another sticking point is how attachments and mods work together, and what happens when you fail to install a mod correctly. Some of this may have been corrected through errata but the same wording is used in the almost new AoR book.

Finally, space combat only works if your character is specifically designed for it.

Actually, I'm gonna add here something that Keith said on another thread... The dice seem complex at first, until you understand that they are there to help you, not constrain you. You are not bound by having to interpret them a strict way, and have tremendous leeway in interpreting them (which is a skill that comes with time and practise).

Sometimes, you just want a binary success/fail, and that works fine. I usually tend to ignore multiple Advantage, for instance (because it can strain narrative credibility trying to come up with something for every result, and blue dice tend to be self-perpetuating anyway...)

It's a bit like 'casting the runes' or something. You roll them and then think 'okay, what do I want this to say or mean?'

It sounds complicated, but it really does get easier after a bit. And the players can contribute to the narrative as much as the GM. It really brings them into the creative process, and is easier than you'd think.

That said, Pathfinder style games have their fans for a reason, and I can see why some people might dislike this non-binary style of dice. For the heavy-narrative, improv-types like us, however, they work wonderfully.

I do like the dice system and the system over all but there is a learning curve.

Here's some pro/cons that might help:

Pro:

--There's a table to use standard dice instead of the custom dice.

--The rules are pretty streamlined and flexible.

--Talent Trees are pretty easy to understand.

--Powers are both precise and narratively open.

Con:

--Some of the book is cluttered (some of healing is in medicine, the rest is in the combat chapter, for example)

--If you're not using custom dice, you'll always need a chart.

--If you don't like a dice mechanic that does more than a binary pass/fail, you'll hate it.

I had a group of d20 murderhobos play this and really get into it (and only ONE was a combat spec character). My current group has more gaming experience, and while they are adjusting to the narrative nature, they're really enjoying it.

As others have suggested, pick up the beginner box or run Under A Black Sun (and use standard dice; it gives the chart in there) and see what you think. If I didn't think it was worth it, I wouldn't have bought a second copy for the table.

I do like the dice system and the system over all but there is a learning curve.

What learning curve? My over-50 group got it and was comfortable in about 20 minutes.

But what I hated the most was the dices, and it seems like it's the same dices in SW.

On paper, the boon/bane and stuff looks nice but all those things came up way too often on the dices.

I know it was supposed to be a narrative game, but having a bunch of boons/banes and a comet/chaos star on almost every roll got annoying really fast.

The dice aren't the same, they are streamlined and simpler. But they do regularly provide those narrative results, so if you found the narrative component that annoying, you won't like this game. Advantages and Threats (boons/banes) come up a lot, pretty much every dice roll.

I find that the rules for EotE and AoR are not well organized in the rule books either. There are no less than three places you need to look to get information on first aid. This does not include other methods of healing which are also in different places.

Finally, space combat only works if your character is specifically designed for it.

Not going down this dark conversation path again.... not my monkeys not my circus.

I have both, and my group didn't take to WFRP3 but have to Star Wars. Even the developers admit that much of Star Wars' own development has come from learning the mistakes of Warhammer, and streamlining things for Star Wars. They've reduced the possible symbols on the dice from 8 (I think) to 6. The dice used also provide larger surface areas for the display of symbols, which d10s couldn't do. In addition, there's much more of a parallel between good/bad dice, which is far easier to figure out. Basically 8 sided good and 8 sided bad dice are equivalents, same with the 6 siders and 12 siders.

So it is possible to hate WFRP3 but love Star Wars Roleplaying.

Finally, space combat only works if your character is specifically designed for it.

Gonna side with Away on this. Space combat works fine without any focus built characters, but takes a little experience to run properly. The tangle that Satch is hinting at is that it's designed to be fast and deadly, so don't overdo it on the encounter design. Build the encounter around the stats of the craft involved first, then adjust to the PCs and NPCs. Don't just toss the players into a snubfighter and fling a half dozen TIEs at them and expect to see them again. This ain't Rogue Squadron.

In regards to the narrative dice "learning curve" or "complexity," I'd like to share a story.

About two months ago, I was recruited by the 501st to appear as a guest at the Joliet Public Library for their Star Wars Day event, which typically draws thousands of people (I think we had 7,000). So my role was to sell-sign copies of Suns of Fortune, and run a few games for the kids. I figured I'd get mostly kids 12 and up, and a few adults, and I'd run a little 30 minute scenario and then bring in another group of 6.

Instead, I was running Edge of the Empire mostly for 6 year olds, as younger kids seemed to dominate the event. I thought this would be a disaster for me personally, because how can a 6 year old latch onto something as abstract as a tabletop RPG, they don't have the attention span, and the dice and the character sheets are all going to just be way too hard for them.

I couldn't be more wrong. I did strip out the force dice mechanic, and did away with hitpoints for enemies, just to streamline things a bit. Otherwise, I showed them all the edge and age beginner box characters, and let them pick "their guy," I had the whisper base map, and came up with scenarios on the fly (break into the base and steal something from the armory, I used the barracks bunks as jail cells and said they had to break out, in one they had to capture an officer having lunch before he could get on a ship and fly away, etc). The kids were first of all, some of the most amazing gamers I've ever played with. They aren't as married to cliche, and they came up with some amazing ideas on how to solve some of the problems. More importantly, this system is flexible enough to allow all the ideas that 6 year olds came up with. They worked together well, and most importantly, THEY were interpreting the dice results within 10 minutes.

If a six year old can figure out the dice after 10 minutes of play, anyone should be able to.

Speaking as someone that hated WFRP3e yet loves this system, I'd say the answer is yes.

This system has far less "fiddly bits" than WFRP3e, and the dice work out much better by being split between positive dice and negative dice rather than WFRP3e blending positive and negative onto the same dice.

And the narrative dice of this system may look scary, but for the vast majority of people, after a few rolls you'll have it down. About the only time that I've heard that a person didn't take to how the dice worked was because that person really didn't want to learn the system (he'd been dragged into a game by his wife, and was a hardcore d20/Pathfinder gamer). I felt bad for the GM that had to put up with said guy, but at least it was a short demo session and not a full game session.

It really does grow on you once you get the dice. Since success can be so unpredictable it adds a layer of fun, and the ability to have disastrous successes and triumphant failures is a good time.

First off, I've never been involved with Warhammer in any of its incarnations, be it miniatures, RPG, or board games. So I have absolutely no opinion from that perspective. However, within about 10-15 minutes of reading about the dice mechanic in the Edge Beginner Game rule book that I bought back in July of last year, I was totally converted. It was the first truly innovative mechanic I'd seen in RPGs in 20 years (except maybe Fate). I'd personally love to see FFG put out more genres of games using the SWRPG dice/skill/talent system.

That being said, I have observed a number of different people (in game stores and cons) who don't like the system. In pretty much every case, they are d20 players who have locked themselves into expecting that all RPGs are number-crunching, tactically-based combat simulations. They just can't wrap their head around SWRPG's abstract nature, nor it's use of "special dice" to tell a narrative story. Don't get me wrong; tactical combat simulations, like Pathfinder or D&D, can be a lot of fun. But once you get a taste for narrative role playing, it's hard to go back.

Of course, some people will never get it because story-telling just isn't their cup of tea. They just want a DM to run them through a dungeon, metagame every rule loophole they can find to kill as many monsters as they can and loot their corpses, all the while keeping the "boring" story and lore element to a minimum.

In fact... that might actually be a good yardstick to use. If you find yourself caught up in the back story, plot, and lore of an adventure, and have a good imagination, then you'll probably love SWRPG. If you play RPG's mainly for the exciting combats and loot-grabs, and find yourself zoning out the rest of the time, then SWRPG is probably not for you.

Ogg, I see what you are saying, but I gotta say, sit down with a good Edge/Age GM, or better yet, go to GenCon, and sit in on a game run by one of the devs. If you like Star Wars, and you play in an Edge/Age game being run by a good GM, you are going to have SOOOOO much fun. Period. It isn't fun for some. It is just plain fun. I have never seen anyone in a game with Jay Little (the system's designer) not having fun. Go to GenCon, or find an FLGS with an experienced GM in the system willing to give you a demo with a friend or two. I defy you to try it and not have some of the most fun you've ever had at an RPG table.

Ogg, I see what you are saying, but I gotta say, sit down with a good Edge/Age GM, or better yet, go to GenCon, and sit in on a game run by one of the devs. If you like Star Wars, and you play in an Edge/Age game being run by a good GM, you are going to have SOOOOO much fun. Period. It isn't fun for some. It is just plain fun. I have never seen anyone in a game with Jay Little (the system's designer) not having fun. Go to GenCon, or find an FLGS with an experienced GM in the system willing to give you a demo with a friend or two. I defy you to try it and not have some of the most fun you've ever had at an RPG table.

Hey, you're preaching to the choir here This is probably the most fun I've ever had with a role playing game, and I've been doing this since the late 70's. And I personally think the people that I've heard nitpicking the game are meatheads. But, unfortunately, they do exist. Would these same meatheads have fun in a Jay Little-run game? I bet they would (I know I would) in no small amount as a testament to his GMing skills and love of the genre. But would they ultimately "grok" the concept of the game? Probably not because they're meatheads, and without an enthusiastic GM that actually "gets it" and is able to duplicate the experience, they'd eventually lose interest and go off with their d20 and raid a dungeon or something.

Incidentally, I have a NSFLGS (not so friendly...) a few miles away from which I bought one or two EotE supplements. I did, in fact, bring up to the owner whether or not he'd consider putting EotE on his calendar, especially since I noticed he had a few open days during the week with nothing going on. I was even going to volunteer to GM. Unfortunately, he was one of the meatheads and just ignorantly bad-mouthed the game for not using standard dice, and for not... well, being Pathfinder. I haven't been back to his establishment since, and I do all my game shopping at an actual FLGS about 20 minutes up the road.

Maybe we have a new slogan here: "Don't be a meathead! Play Edge of the Empire and Age of Rebellion!"

I hated 3ed ed WFRP and I wasn't sure about SW EotE but with the removal of the clunky stances, cool down and cards plus the improved chances of success on the dice I've changed my mind.

Well,I just moved into a new area, far away, far away from where I was living; Germany to Northern Virginia...

On meetup they have a pretty sizable gaming community due to the close proximity of D.C. and a few other larger towns/cities. Pathfinder dominates the area followed by D&D, a handful of other systems, and ONE SW D20 RCR heavily modified to look like Pathfinder. Not one EotE game being ran. So I started one up, and I know have six players and at least two waiting in the wings now. No one in this group had played EotE before, but where willing to give it a try. So,e were skeptical at first. It seems this "custom dice" thing is almost the deal breaker for a lot of people. Many people call it a "ploy to sell more dice"... it's a dice conspiracy people, don't be fooled!!!

Anyway, I explained to them that they do have a chart in the book to convert the dice over in the CRB, the Beta book came with a sticker sheet to put on your dice, and they have a PDF to print out on a sticker sheet... The cost of the CRB was also a factor in the converting process. No one in the area had a book yet. The LGS about an hour from me didn't even have it, though they have a ton of FFG X-wing stuff.

Anyway, I told them I have the CRB and some other books, and four sets of dice, so they won't need to buy any. Of course the age old gamer dice superstitions came up.. "Other people can't put their cooties on my plastic bobbles!"

So I ran the first little mini adventure throw together insta-adventure-off-the-cuff style. Everyone really seemed to enjoy the game and the concept. We were able to do a little bit of social interaction, ground combat, and starship combat. Everyone liked the game enough to become regular players in my bi-weekly campaign, and to go out and start buying the ECRB, some splat books, dice, and some even getting the ACRB.

I have no experience with the Warhammer games, but if in one session I can get six D20 enthusiastists to join my game and they start spending cash on it, something must have been done right. I can't guarantee you'll love the game, not everyone does, but I'm willing to bet you will.

So I ran the first little mini adventure throw together insta-adventure-off-the-cuff style. Everyone really seemed to enjoy the game and the concept. We were able to do a little bit of social interaction, ground combat, and starship combat. Everyone liked the game enough to become regular players in my bi-weekly campaign, and to go out and start buying the ECRB, some splat books, dice, and some even getting the ACRB.

I have no experience with the Warhammer games, but if in one session I can get six D20 enthusiastists to join my game and they start spending cash on it, something must have been done right. I can't guarantee you'll love the game, not everyone does, but I'm willing to bet you will.

This actually says a lot. I have 3-4 players in my group who dig this game, but none of them have spent a dime on any material from it. I have the income to supply us with plenty of dice plus all the core and splats, so I suppose they don't mind mooching.