Is it normal in table top games for people to hate the damage characters? (I'm often accused of being the reason the GM will drop a Rancor on the group.)

So I’m kind of new to table top games. Edge is the first I've ever played. In most of the games I play, when given the choice, I’ll play a damage class. So even before our first game the veteran DnD guy in the group accused me of being a min maxing murder hobo. I had to look up what murder hobo meant to know it didn't apply to my character. Backstory aside, my character is a Mandolorian; combat proficiency is kind of what they do.

Anyway fast forward a few dozen sessions. I still get grief for being damage oriented. In a previous session we came across these guys trying to break into a place that we were guarding, I spoke up “Ooh can I go first?” because I wanted to try something and the guy across from me drops his pen and says “well I guess this encounters over.” So I said “fine I’ll go last” everyone rushed into combat. Once it was my turn I tried a leadership check to get them to surrender (failed of course). So I get a speech from pen guy about letting the group know that I’m going to try talking next time. It’s hard to let people know what you want to do when you’re shamed out of taking a turn.

So is this kind of stuff normal? I see a lot of posts complaining about high damage characters so I figure it’s something I’ll just have to deal with. Or do I just have someone in my group that likes to push buttons?

Well I would say much depends on the GM, his group and the game style they like to play.

Don't now what kind DnD games the guy accusing your player being Murder Hobo has played, but in my gaming groups games there is at least 2 pure damage dealer murder hobos (on a very tight leash), other characters are more balanced to any kind of situations. Combat, Social or Intellectual.

It is a must in my game group, but we all like the way GM is making the campaign. We also take turns who plays the pure damage dealer.

Well this might sound defensive to the "Pen Guy" but it might have helped to say what you were planning to do. But for him just outright shooting you down was not called for.

Might you post what your Attributes, profession, and skills are? Might give something to make suggestions?

I have loads of Murder Hobos as you call them, they are the easiest kind of characters to create in most Tabletops games.

Because I have be playing a lot of damage class on EotE (I have a Mandalorian Warrior since the beta book of EotE came out), the best way to actually make the character more likebale towards other players is to take heavy handicaps.

I'm not saying it works all the time, but it does work a lot.

I'll take an example of another game that suits best what I want to say : Werewolf the Apocalypse

In there I play a Werewolf dealing loads and loads and loads of damage, like it can even take out some serious NPC's with a bit of effort. But next to that, the character has nightmares, is shy and has physical malformations.

When the other players saw my werewolf for the first time, they though he was just somekind of nerd, ten sessions later, the character was the leader of the pack and the Alpha of the NYC Werewolf tribes, kinda nice if I might say.

Back to Star Wars, I think you should aim to have more faceted characters. And by that I mean try to give some characterial Role Play for your character, he might be a brute, but he won't be fighting under special circumstances or he has some very good plot openings on his backstory.

What tabletop players resent with big damage dealing characters, is the lack of depth commonly associated to them. Always be very careful on the backstory of your character, give him lots of stuff to think about.

And end of the line, you play what you want and enjoy, but after some time and some personnal experience, evventhough damage dealing characters are interesting, you'll quickly learn to evolve your style. So just sit back and enjoy your characters

Hi Rogue7,

First of all (if I understood correctly), welcome to table top rpg's!!

Well, the "issue" you describe depends mainly on two things, the game you play and the game master who conducts the game.

There are rpgs, like DnD or this one, where indeed, the issue of a high damage output character may arise on the table. Other issues are also common, like having a tank PC which can soak high amount of damage (typically is the same character delivering a lot of damage). But this does not happen in all rpgs! It is typically an issue in rpgs where characters develop through not only skills, but also through "special powers" (call them feats, talents, powers, actions, stunts, whatever you like) like in DnD or SW (FFG).

So, on one hand, it is not an issue appearing on all rpgs. On the other hand, it also depends on the GM. Although you are playing one of these a games (it is his choice! tell this to your GM), lets say SW EotE, where such an issue may arise, the GM is the one designing the scenarios. That is he chooses which kind of challenges the PCs have to face. If he does want to challenge his group with combats and he has a combat beast in his PCs group, he will have to be more creative. It is not easy to challenge a group of PCs where one is a combat beast and the rest are not, for example you risk killing the other PCs, or make the combat feel unnatural. I can imagine he is frustrated, but he has all the tools to fix this. He may restrict certain weapons using in-game factors, like "in this planet weapons bigger than a blaster pistol are not allowed by law" and "wearing armour is illegal" etc. or he may directly disallow certain PC classes for his campaign.

As a GM you have the obligation to know your group of players, which role they would like to play, what motivates them and put this all together. As a GM you will usually end up having to manage very diverse groups, where one player wants his PC shine in combat, while another does not give a **** about combats. It is not easy, but it is what it is, and if he does it good, is very rewarding.

Cheers,

Yepes

The basics for my character BH: Gadgeteer B3 A4 W3 everything else is a 2. 4 ranks in ranged light. armored clothing. 2 Heavy blaster pistols with blaster actuating module +3 damage. 400xp total.

So far our GM has been great but he does admit that my character makes it difficult to plan encounters. We have kind of a big group (5) so that doesn't help. In spite of all that, combat has gotten a lot more dynamic then it was in our first sessions. Fighting a group of mercs wile the cargo bay was decompressing was especially fun.

So far my only gripe is that "pen guy" will give me grief when I try to take a turn up front, or when we come up to a group a bad guys. He tends to leave me alone when I do non shooty things so I've been trying to stick to that as much as possible. He's a cool guy when hes not using me for a punching bag. I don't know, maybe he's just over role playing because his character is a Jedi and I'm a bounty hunter.

The FFG Star Wars games are meant to be narrative as much as combat-orientated. Star Wars as a genre does need exciting shoot-outs, but it needs other things equally. The Hired Gun career is very focused on what it does, so can appear overpowered in combat. The Soldier from AOR is even worse - our Soldier can take out the rest of the team solo without breaking sweat.

So it's kind of up to you to give your character some non-shooty focus. This isn't A FPS like Borderlands where every problem can be solved by shooting something in the face. A Bounty Hunter actually has more options in this regard. They can make good pilots and a Gadgeteer has tech skills too.

Guy, just sounds like a butthole, some people are.

At a guess, he could be annoyed you usurped his role as damage. Or expects you to try and shop his character.

Also if that is very mild combat character, at least from my groups standing (we use heavy blasters or gunnery).

there seems to be little love for combat characters... in your group. reading your post i have difficulty imagining you as a murderhoboesque player, yet the others seem to have that preconception. you need to talk about it. if your actions at the table haven't convinced them by now i don't think there's much you could do. (unless you really are a murderhobo! then my advice woulld be: stop! )

i understand that your gm might have trouble planning combat encounters if one player in a group focuses on combat while the other characters don't. i have been there (on both sides). it gets better as the gm gets more experienced with the game. you could add a few non-combat abilities, so the others can "catch up" a bit.

when i play a character that's weak, with little combat prowess i love those combat characters in my group. want to know why? they keep my character from getting killed when people start shooting at my him. this tend to happen in most rpgs.

i know star wars is big on fights.

i know most of main characters in star wars stories are competent combatants.

i know every group needs someone who can fight (unless they play a very peculiar kind of star wars rpg).

i know that combat is fun.

i know some people like to complain.

i know that if you talk about this openly with your group you will most likely be able to sort it out.

i know nothing. i am john snow.

I agree with PlanB - the guy just sounds like an a-hole. Let me tell you a similar story: I once got invited, with 2 of my friends, to a game of Vampire. We hadn't played it before, but we knew the game and before the game started - at the table - we were creating our characters. The GM and another player, who already had his vampire, were listening to our creative process. So, I made a Toreador artist, a violinist virtuoso. Another friend - a Ventrue diplomat. In short completely non-combat characters. While we were making them, the GM and the other players would smirk and exchange sighs and comments like 'Oh great, another gay.' etc. You get the picture. Once the session started the other player would spend dozens of minutes one-on-one with the GM realizing his secret plan, while we, when given a chance, would try to stay true to our chars (I tried to seduce a woman from my orchestra etc). It all ended with pointless werewolf attack.... Where, of course, the other player's vampire excelled - he was a combat monster.

So the point is - it all depends on your group. Perhaps they hate your char, because they know that once he enters combat, he wins it. And if your GM scales the encounter up, they will likely end up dead.

As always the best solution is talking to the players and the GM. If I was your GM I'd - in combat encounters - get a group of minions or better - rivals - just for you. So then you can say - "Don't worry guys, I'll take care of the guy with the missile tube, you get the rest". And everyone is happily shooting at their targets, without feeling useless.

As a GM i try to keep the fights in perspective to the current situation and the overall theme. How do i best put it ... Not every fight is one to the death.

You are dealing with the Black Sun and between jobs decide to get drinks in one of their watering holes. Someone there does not like how you look at him/her or how you simply look like.

So a fight breaks out, up to lethal extent. Only to be interrupted when a higher ranking officer of the cartell shows up and orders all to stand down since there is work to do. Dead men can't work.

Or you do a robbery and start shooting the mall guards. They are neither trained nor ready to fight till the end. Getting wounded or intimidated is enough to get them out of the fight.

I hope that puts things into a perspective.

Oh, and as a fellow player i'd tell 'Pen Guy' to stuff it. You have in your examples proofen that you do more than murder-hobo so he should stop complaining.

So, you roll four yellow dice when you shoot your blaster. What other skills and talents do you have? And what do you do outside of combat?

I have a similar character in my group, and the players give him grief as well. However, there's a reason. He, too, has four yellows in his primary combat skill (ranged heavy). But other than YYG in stealth, and a few others with rank 1, he has no other skills, and an Intellect of 1 to boot. He has no depth to his character, except for "I kill things", and pretty much all of his motivations and obligations actually tie him to some rigid code that keeps him from being role played in any fun, meaningful way. He does next to nothing out of combat, other than occasionally play a getaway pilot. And it doesn't help that his player doesn't show up consistently to the games.

The issues break down into two parts. First, despite my requests for him not to do this when he made his character, he min-maxed into a killing machine that does pretty much nothing else, and has the intellectual capacity of a jelly fish. Since SW is all about story and character, background and motivations, he made an incredibly BORING SW character. And as the rest of the group actually role plays their characters, or at least has unique and cool, fun things that they can do with their characters, they tend to roll their eyes at this one, and treat him more like a group weapon, rather than an actual character. And since he's showing up less and less (probably because he created a boring character), they take the character less seriously each session.

The second issue is one of balance for the GM. A good game will consist of many fun, interesting scenes where each character has a chance to shine and advance the plot. It'll also have the occasional shoot-em-up combats. If you have a one-trick combat character in the group, not only is it difficult for the GM to give him anything meaningful to do outside of combat, it's also difficult to create a combat encounter that will provide a proper level of challenge to the group. If, for instance, our dumb-as-a-stump rifle jockey rolls four yellows, has a crit of 1, autofire, and +40 to crit rolls, any adversary that would be a challenge to him would mean instantaneous and gruesome death to everyone else in the party. If you make the adversaries so that they challenge everyone else, but does not overpower them, Mr. Four Yellows will mow them down without breaking a sweat, leaving the rest of the group feeling like they have nothing meaningful to contribute.

Most RPGs today lend themselves to this sort of min-maxing of combat characters. D&D 4e pretty much forced you to optimize your "build" as if you were preparing to raid in World of Warcraft. Other games with tactical, rather than narrative, mechanics also put more emphasis on straight dealing damage during combat, rather than using your imagination. Because of this, some people will try to do the same thing with SWRP because in other games, it's almost required. SWRP, however, rewards the generalist, rather than the specialist, the creative thinker, rather than the rule monkey. The more skills and talents that you have at your disposal, the more ways you can interact with the story and change the game in cinematic and epic ways.

So... mix it up a bit. Instead of four yellows, make it two yellows and two greens and put the extra points into another skill or two, more talents, or maybe even another useful specialization. Think of creative ways you can be useful out of combat. Don't just be a mindless brute that shuts down for most of the adventure and only wakes up when initiative is rolled. You'll end up having a LOT more fun, and gain more respect from the other players as well

'Murder Hobo' - a character who violence is the solution to everything. He has little goals in life, little motivation, he's simply latched onto the simplest and most efficient means to an end.

'Combat Guy' - a character focused on combat.

The problem with the 'murder hobo' as I would use the term, isn't that he's focused on combat - it's that he does so at the exclusion of all else. This has two problems,

1) He has an answer to everything. Just kill it. Other characters that specialized in say, negotiations or mechanics, don't have that - when their roll fails, it fails. If the murder hobo fails, either the game ended because everyone is dead or he rolls again. (exaggerated, worst case example)

2) He marginalizes other characters. The negotiator, the peacekeeper, the "guy who gets the group out of tough situations" have no role to play. The murder hobo will attack, and combat will ensue. They don't get a chance to engage in the sorts of scenes they wanted.

I don't have much more to add from there. Anyone whose RPG'd for a length of time will have plenty of anecdotes one way or the other. It's a case of the few ruining things for the many - either intentionally (murder hobo) or unintentionally (skewing combat difficulty). How that gets resolved is going to depend on the GM and the players. Who is in the right will vary group to group, situation to situation.

Great post, Ogg.

This tends to be a bit of a problem with many Droid characters (I assume your Int 1 chacater was a droid?). Some players see the customisation as a chance to create a min/maxed abomination, essentially a gun or vibrosword with a body to carry it around... rather than trying to play an R2 or 3PO character, or 'humanity-within-the-machine' as in Mass Effect.

Heck, even HK47, as close to a 'murder hobo' Star Wars character as you can get, had quirks and an amusing personality!

I'm going to go the other way and say that it doesn't matter as much where your skill points are as to what your attitude is with the character. If you play him (or her) as an uncomplicated thug who shoots first and doesn't bother asking questions, then yeah, you might deserve a little grief. If, however, you play him as a complicated character with some emotional depth and non-violent responses, then the grief you're getting is undeserved and you should maybe have a word with your GM and the player who's picking on you.

You can obviously express that complexity through varied skills -- and I recommend it -- but roleplay is just as important as your skill numbers.

Edit: CaptainRaspberry said what I wanted to say in better (and fewer) words.

OggDude has some pretty solid advice, but it sounds like Rogue7's character at least has a bit more depth than OggDude's example. The idea of busting through a door and trying to Leadership or Coerce is a classic but still wonderful use of a non-combat solution.

To reiterate what everyone else is thinking. Find something fun other than shooting and see if you can take that in an interesting direction. It sounds like you could stop focusing on combat and still be a formidable foe to your enemies. Is there other parts of your character that you have fun with?

Gadgeteer has some really interesting tech-based talents. I know your character's int is a 2, but you can bump your mechanics and check out the Outlaw Tech specialization. There's good synergy there plus it is a good starting point for branching into other areas of interest.

To address your original complaint: in my groups, I prefer my players give more thought to their characters than how many damage they can deal, which is why when I sit down and walk my players through character creation, I always try and steer them into more diverse directions. Granted if they want to focus on combat, that's perfectly fine, but I also encourage some versatility as well. As they chose their skills and talents I usually ask how their character would know those interesting skills. This gets the wheels turning on backstory which can help guide a character.

It sounds like Pen Guy is a bit of a jerk. He obviously does not like the combat-oriented play style, but he's being unfair about it. I agree with what others are saying. You should talk to this guy. Be reasonable and try not to sound accusing or defensive.

So far my only gripe is that "pen guy" will give me grief when I try to take a turn up front, or when we come up to a group a bad guys. He tends to leave me alone when I do non shooty things so I've been trying to stick to that as much as possible. He's a cool guy when hes not using me for a punching bag. I don't know, maybe he's just over role playing because his character is a Jedi and I'm a bounty hunter.

Wait a second, he is playing a "Jedi" and whining about the shooty-combat guy?? What does he do when the fighting starts, meditate?

Here's my take on the situation, Rogue7.

As you mentioned, the GM is having some difficulty in balencing combat encounters. This is a typical issue in RPGs. If all characters aren't at similar power levels, it can be hard for a GM to plan. Especially when one has so much more combat potential than the rest. A great GM and players can work arround that difficulty.

I applaud you for trying talking before shooting. Maybe you should mention to the group that your character, while good at shooting, will look towards non-violent answers to encounters first, before pulling his blasters and killing everything that moves. I'd think that would be a good way for your character would fit in the group then would be able to pull their fat from the frier when stuff hits the fan.

As for Pen guy... I could make a snide comment like, "he sounds like an immature tool," especially since he's making insensitive comments about your character and your play style. Really though, what it sounds like is that what you two are looking for in a game doesn't quite match up. (Or at least he percieves it to not match up.) A good game is a story told by all people playing, not just the GM. It's a group project. If everyone isn't on the same page with what they want from the game, then issues like this could crop up. A good game group is much like a band. You can be all great friends, but when you sit down to be creative together, the gears grind a bit because what each individual is looking for doesn't line up 100% with what others are looking for.

In my group, we're always more on the "murder hobo" side of things. Which is fine. We have fun with it. But, if I wanted to play a game where we did more role playing, lots of talking and avoiding combat, then I wouldn't play with those friends. I'd go to a different group of friends who play like that. It's all about finding the right group of people who are on the same page and can be creative together.

I'd recommend trying to work with them. If you enjoyed trying to talk first before shooting, then tell the group you're character will do that. Perhaps they won't run into combat thinking you'll back them up and then get mad when you try their method of talking if they knew you were going to play that way from now on. If pen guy is still giving you grief and/or the game isn't fun for you, then find a different group. Find people you can be creative with in the styles you want to be creative. Creative differences is a perfectly acceptable reason to leave a game and still remain friends.

I hope this helps.

Just make sure every character has a dream.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mJICrhJD4-M

In my opinion this issue has very little to do with a game system and everything to do with personality combinations at the table.

If people are resenting your character for being good at what you chose to specialize in, that's a problem. It could indicate that they're not very mature. It could also mean the GM isn't providing encounters that challenge everybody and provide a good combination of things to do beyond just shooting.

Rogue7,

Sounds like a perception problem around the table. It appears the others think it is impossible to play a combat focused character with a personality. I have almost the same character in my table top group, and yes, he will mow down the minions with ease, and put a pretty serious on adversaries (assuming I can manage to roll average, rather then my normal well below average). However, until it comes to combat, I try to do anything I feel like, and roll my crappy dice pools. I do this PLANNING to fail, and making a funny scene out of it. Sure, the character is gearing up to be a walking battle tank, but get him out of his armor, and he is a different man.. Try making his Obligation something funny. Rather than being about avenging his dead family on the Hutt Crime lord who killed them, have him be obsessed with Sullustan Love Poetry, and Klatooinian instrumental music, maybe even Twi'lek impressionist art. Give the character depth in the narrative, make him three dimensional, and they may accept him more. When it comes to failing though, do not usurp someone else's time to shine (that is, do not try to negotiate the deal with the hutt, when the Face of the group is there; steal not someone else's limelight).

How you choose to enjoy the game is your choice, be not ashamed. Generally, at younger tables, everyone wants to do _something_ productive when combat arises. Sit back, let them act first, and you go ahead and act last. Get a feel for how the REST of the people like to play combat. Maybe the GM will start throwing in Rivals and Nemesis NPC for you, wait a bit and let everyone else ID them, then take them down. Ignore the minions, let the other, less-combat-focused characters take care of them, you worry about that big bad that they will have no chance of hitting.

Kevynn

In my group, everybody knows I am the "Murder Hobo" or in my case the Warrior in D&D. In EotE, I am the Pilot/2nd Gun. My buddy and I have an unofficial rivalry that if I go up in Range Lt he goes up in Range Hvy and has to keep pace. My guy has Agl 4, Cun 3, 4 Ranks in Rng Lt & 5 ranks in Pilot Space. So like Ogg, if it isnt piloting or combat, my guy is comic relief. And I personally like that because that is my role. Before we started this game my friends and I basically sketched out what we need to make a great group...Brains, Combat, Social, Varied, Misc. So we have a Droid (Gun 1), Pilot (Me/Gun 2), Talker (Scoundrel / Gun 3), Brains (Slicer), Varied (Driver) . If we get into an AoR game then we tentatively fleshed out what we are going to do there too.

Are you having fun in this game? That is the main question for this system, that and what is your prime objective. Mine is to be the best pilot/gunslinger in the galaxy. Socially I know my PC suffers and that is fine since he isnt a loner. If he was then it would be Hilarious, but that's another story. Yes that "pen guy" is a "Neo-Maxy Zone Dweeby".

In our games when combat occurs we have the 2 guns going 1st or 1, 2, 3 cuz depending on the situation guys w/ talents that can help their PC not get hit is a good thing. My guy just does the John Woo Maneuver and takes cover to fire 2 blasters all day (My guns are exactly like yours except I went the Pierce +1 /Dmg +1 route)

In the end we LOVE this game and my group is pretty balanced. We have been playing the premade games mainly but they're fun for us, and we are still moderately beginners to this system. We listen to each other and give advice for ea. other but mainly have fun together. If having a side convo w/ your dissenter isn't the answer, I would just play your PC the way you want to play the PC and if he has a problem w/ it RP and stun blast his PC in the @$$ and call it a day. LOL. (We do that from time to time when one of us [mainly me] does something bone-headed)

There're a lot of good things that have been said here on the subject, so I'll just add that, IMO, Edge is a game that plays very well when players don't try to hyper optimize for a given role. I've only got a few months of GMing under my belt but I feel like my players have had a lot more rewarding sessions during that time they've all been able to contribute to any given situation. With characters made to be more focused, that tnds to be less possible.

YMMV

There're a lot of good things that have been said here on the subject, so I'll just add that, IMO, Edge is a game that plays very well when players don't try to hyper optimize for a given role. I've only got a few months of GMing under my belt but I feel like my players have had a lot more rewarding sessions during that time they've all been able to contribute to any given situation. With characters made to be more focused, that tnds to be less possible.

YMMV

I concur, that this system lends itself to being diverse, but I think it works even better when it is diverse group wise. Not to say there isnt anything wrong w/ making your PC diverse but sometimes if you want to be the "Best" at something you have to focus early then diversify later. IMHO

I have found so far that focusing early tends to be easier then add skills in what you think you need to flesh out later. My friend in my group went the opposite, and diversified early. He wasnt great at anything early on, and it hurt in some cases, but now that we have played more, his PC is getting better at a lot of things gradually. Similar to Mage classes in D&D. I always liked the Hit now Hit often Hit again, then ask questions PC So that is what I did.

To explain my character a bit better, I wanted to make someone who had a lot of raw skill and training but not much real world experience. IIRC my character is the youngest in the group. So as I use skills (that I didn’t get from boot camp) I spend xp on them. Like recently I’ve been using stealth quite frequently so it’s due for some upgrades once we get to a point where we can spend our xp.

So I think that part of the problem is me just being new to table top games. I’m not very good at role playing, I’m getting better, not I’m not as good as the others in the group. My inexperience is perhaps playing into the stereotype. Sometimes I’m not sure what to do with myself, and usually wait to see what everyone else is doing. Like one time our group was tracking down an informant\contact the bulk of the group decided to go into the lobby of the apartment building and charm their way past the clerk and guard. Not being good at social skills I decided to scale the building and break into the apartment from the outside. Before I went in I did a check for traps or alarms, and saw that the window and the door were rigged with explosives. I decided to wait for the rest of the group. Our droid was then able to disarm the bombs.

In our last session our talky guy was able to convince the leader or the yar yar clan to meet so we could “share” the treasure from the ship. While the main group of bad guys was distracted by the rest of my group I was able to sneak onto their ship. My plan was to stealth kill the guys left on the ship, but outside things went pair shaped pretty quick so I just went into T-800 mode.

I’m getting better at using the rest of my skills, and noticing opportunities to use them. I like it when I can spread my wings and be a bounty hunter, but I also enjoy putting a hole where someone’s face used to be

RPG playing exp just takes time and gaming. It sounds like you know what you want to do w/ /you PC. I would recommend that you stay within the perimeters that you set for your PC. If you are the sneak/kill guy, then be that guy. 5xp in this game can be the difference between getting a 1st lv Rank or those 5pts you need to get your 25pt talent and depending on how your GM plays it, those xp could be few and far between. Just make sure if that guy tries to punk you in game that you can punk back if need be. Remember Keep your shields on Double front, or you'll get your @$$ shot off!