What do you think of this list?

I have some specific questions I'd love answers to:

1. Will it have a build advantage versus Phantoms, Phantoms with mini-swarm, ChewieC3PO + 3Zs?

I feel like the Phantom and the Falcon are the two prevalent powers in the meta right now.

(I think I'll run the risk of getting matched up against a swarm and hope I fly well, and they don't fly as well. The plan there is to try and get a few shots off at R3 on the front academies, then advance and go for howlrunner R1 R2 after.)

2. Do you think Engine Upgrade on Wedge is required to help change positioning for Phantoms? If not, I think I prefer having another hull for backup.

I think that since you have predator on Wedge, you probably want to focus every turn. I think that if you have to boost to get a shot, you may have a very weak shot since you won't be able to do as much with your dice. (Albeit not THAT weak, since it's Wedge with Predator).

I'd lean more toward veteran instincts on Wes, since he'll soften up a target for Wedge... might net you a fully dead ship by the time Wedge is finished.

I shouldn't help you rebel scum, but he's right..that VI Wes thing is horrible. Wes shoots first and if nothing else peels the focus off you. Now the guy by us that runs this has opportunist on Wedge meaning 4 to 5 dice coming in as a result. Katarn supplies focus to wedge so he's focus locked and peels the stress off with wingman. Runs the moldy crow and blaster turret.

I only took the EU in the thought that I might need it to change facing to hit a phantom, and would try and rarely use it. I'm very very knowledgable about the benefits of focus and action use.

My question is, to people who have experience flying against very skilled, tournament winning players with Phantoms, is the EU beneficial, or is it simply beneficial enough to have Wedge moving after the Phantom?

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Crabbok, do you really think Wes with VI will help that much? I feel like having the Blue fire HLC at PS8 is also deals a lot of damage before their ships even fire.

EU can be useful, but Expert Handling is better (specifically for getting a phantom in Wedge's arc).

Wes w/ VI means he shoots first vs ANY Phantom (and moves last, making it a bit harder for the phantom to arc-dodge). PS 8 means he and the blue 'might' shoot 1st against Echo, but Echo would then move last, making it unlikely they would even have a shot. Or, if you don't have initiative, then they might still get a shot on Echo thanks to moving last (especially the Blue w/ barrel roll) but then you are looking at most likely an unmodified attack vs. 4 green dice (not bad if Wes also has a shot to strip tokens, but that's unlikely at PS 8).

Regardless, PS 8 helps you not a bit against Whisper (although maybe you are really good at getting whisper in arc, so maybe that's not a concern?). Nor against Fel for that matter (I know, who cares about him these days?).

Most of my rebel lists run wedge plus engine upgrades specifically for phantom hunting, I think it gives you a little wider of a range to shoot than barrel roll. I personally have a lot of trouble with the idea of three ship builds though. I haven't nailed down my exact all comers rebel list but it's a combination right now of wedge Dutch z95 and b wing. I might have to steal Jensen with vi though!

What do you not like about 3 ship builds for rebels now that tie swarm and z swarm list numbers are not as high as either the Falcon or the Phantom lists?

Having more ships vs the Falcon would be great, but then again, the Falcon list does well against many things.

What do you not like about 3 ship builds for rebels now that tie swarm and z swarm list numbers are not as high as either the Falcon or the Phantom lists?

Having more ships vs the Falcon would be great, but then again, the Falcon list does well against many things.

I should preface that I've only played maybe 20 games. That being said large ships give me headaches so I'm extremely hesitant to do anything that hurts my chances against them.

It's a bit of a personal preference as well, I like a fourth ship for not only the extra firepower but the positioning advantages as well.

I think with 3 ships (and no YT) you're really setting yourself up for an uphill battle.

Yes you hit first like a ton of bricks but your ships die really fast and you have no way to react to ennemy moves which means it all relies on your powers of prediction. I just don't see this list doing well.

How about this for a similar XXB list:

Wes w/ VI

Wedge (naked)

Keyan Farlander w/ HLC and Opportunist

No ones using R7-T1?

How about this for a similar XXB list:

Wes w/ VI

Wedge (naked)

Keyan Farlander w/ HLC and Opportunist

If we are talking Aces, I would do the similarbut drop the HLC for either Opportunist+R2 Astro/Predator on Wedge and have 2-4 points to play with. Options for those points include: R3-A2 on Wes for some added anti-phantom tech, Advanced Sensors on Keyan, Sensor Jammer on Keyen (bc it is so silly good with Wes), Shield on Wedge, etc. Is too bad you cant get Keyan's PS up without giving up someone's EPT though =(.

Most of my rebel lists run wedge plus engine upgrades specifically for phantom hunting, I think it gives you a little wider of a range to shoot than barrel roll. I personally have a lot of trouble with the idea of three ship builds though. I haven't nailed down my exact all comers rebel list but it's a combination right now of wedge Dutch z95 and b wing. I might have to steal Jensen with vi though!

I just want to point out that boosting actually makes your firing arc more narrow because you are moving closer to your target, and since firing arcs are cones, they are obviously wider the further away you are. Barrel-roll is better for catching a slippery opponent in your wider (but further away) arc because you can keep back.

Now I'm speaking in a vacuum here, so there will of course be cases where boost is better, but if your opponent is smart and is flying a more manoeuvreable ship (as echo is compared to Wedge), he might be able to foresee your final position even with your boost and still dodge your arc...in theory of course.

Most of my rebel lists run wedge plus engine upgrades specifically for phantom hunting, I think it gives you a little wider of a range to shoot than barrel roll. I personally have a lot of trouble with the idea of three ship builds though. I haven't nailed down my exact all comers rebel list but it's a combination right now of wedge Dutch z95 and b wing. I might have to steal Jensen with vi though!

I just want to point out that boosting actually makes your firing arc more narrow because you are moving closer to your target, and since firing arcs are cones, they are obviously wider the further away you are. Barrel-roll is better for catching a slippery opponent in your wider (but further away) arc because you can keep back.

Now I'm speaking in a vacuum here, so there will of course be cases where boost is better, but if your opponent is smart and is flying a more manoeuvreable ship (as echo is compared to Wedge), he might be able to foresee your final position even with your boost and still dodge your arc...in theory of course.

yah the barrel roll does seem a little better in theory, I think its just the play style of phantom players in my area but with boost I seem to be able to consistently get phantoms in my arc or get out of their arc with boost.

I think with 3 ships (and no YT) you're really setting yourself up for an uphill battle.

Yes you hit first like a ton of bricks but your ships die really fast and you have no way to react to ennemy moves which means it all relies on your powers of prediction. I just don't see this list doing well.

Funny story: the list has already done quite well at regionals in the Wes/Wedge/Luke build, which is VERY similar. A version with Wes/Wedge/Ibti won one.

It is tough to fly and a bit unforgiving, but it packs a hell of a punch and the high PS is a pretty great counter to Phantoms.

I played Wes/Wedge/Corran last week (with Corran and Wes at PS10) and wrecked a couple Whisper lists.

Boosting has a directional change, which might be more important within close quarter positioning.

Dunno.

It's starting to make more sense what things are wrong with this list.

The first list with engine upgrade instead of hull upgrade is definetly the best thing on this page. 99 pts is ok, won't win you initiative against whisper (shouldn't anyway) but could still be very helpful against han. You can boost after he does. Wedge is always nice against 3p0 from inside range 3. I still think you're going to be fighting an uphill battle against the top builds, but it has a chance.

And yes if you don't have the EU on wedge, you might as well not even bother against a competent whisper.

Edit: Actually wes doesn't really do much if you don't have opportunist, or shoot at ships that have more than one token, like recon spec ships or something. Switch him out for luke who is more survivable and a point cheaper. I would then consider dropping the intel agent and putting r5-p9 on luke and keeping things at 99 pts, or r2-d2.