Currently the Echo list I'm running looks very similar to a lot of peoples (so I won't call it ‘My’ list) however I'm looking to see what other options there are for the last ship and what people suggest/prefer in an unknown meta.

So the list currently looks like this:

Echo + Veteran Instincts + Advanced Cloaking Device + Recon Specialist

Bounty Hunter + Recon Specialist

Royal Guard Pilot + Push the Limit

99 points

I'm finding that 1 point now isn’t enough for initiative bid so it seems you either go big (98-96 points) or max out to 100 and make the best of it.

I'm set on the First 2 ships but am unsure about the last 26 points and how best to spend them, my current options I am considering are:

Omicron Group Pilot + Darth Vader for a total Squad point cost of 98 going for initiative or,

Carnor Jax for total squad points of 100, almost ensuring that you forgo initiative.

I've played the doom shuttle before but primarily where I have a slow moving friendly to bump with to keep him in the game longer and I don’t know if that will work with this list but it's worth trying.

The second option is a little more intriguing, more high risk/high reward. Forgoing initiative or even gifting it should you win it means that Carnor and Echo will move after opposing PS8 ships giving you positional advantage with Echo and messing with your opponents not knowing if Jax will be at range 1 after movement to turn off focus tokens etc.

Is this a viable strategy or is it too risky and I should go for the original list or the Doomshuttle version?

Here's my thoughts:

naked Jax is not worth it. Push the Limit MINIMUM, IMO (hard to run him without hull upgrade too). If it were me, I would rather drop RS from Echo to get PtL (still leaves you at 99 pts)

I simply would not consider a doom shuttle when you only have 3 ships (for a tourney). There will be at least one game where using it may very well cost you the match, so why compound the number of difficult decisions you have to make in a tourney setting?

Personally, I prefer the original list with one change: give Echo Rebel Captive instead of Recon Spec. I think it would really help you against one of your worst matchups: HSF.

What really worked well for me was

Echo

Veteran instincts

Advanced cloak

Fire control systems

Kath Scarlet

Academy pilot x2

99 pts

I call this my final build of Scarlets' Ghost.

I've tweaked it quite a bit and found this to work extremely well.

The two academy pilots are great for blocking and getting in the way.

Plus they are also ment for fodder. Using them to make better targets over the Phantom and kath.

Before I had more upgrades on Kath, and just one tie dark curse. Though it was fun using seismic on Kath, Ive had better results with the two academy over just the one tie. Though I did do extremely well with Dark curse.

Even after one or two ties are dead, by then echo and kath had worn out my opponent are still a force to rekon with.

Only two builds I can think off the top of my head that I haven't tried against is Han shoots first and a whisper build.

Don't go PTL on echo. Couple reasons. One you can't cloak when stress. Two, it really limits your movements which is something you don't want and three you lose veteran instincts.

Taking the doom shuttle is fun and all but in a three ship build you want to keep yours alive as long as possible. Especially with echo on the board.

Which is why I went with the two ties. Kath for her higher ps more than anything but you could go bh with recon specialist. The two ties are just annoying. If they get ignored that's fine, they block and pick away. If they die, then they did the job keeping your most valuable ships alive

I recommend trying it out.

You maybe pleasantly surprised

For 26 points you can get an SS Pilot + PtL + TC. Personally, I prefer to run mini-swarms with my Phantoms.

As for the initiative bid, it's not usually worth trying to force that one extra point into your list if you come up short at 99, but there are a lot of viable options for two points. Upgrading to Whisper or stacking FCS are the first things that come to my mind. The latter will come in especially handy when fighting large ships, and a Phantom needs all the help it can get against a YT.

Here's my thoughts:

naked Jax is not worth it. Push the Limit MINIMUM, IMO (hard to run him without hull upgrade too). If it were me, I would rather drop RS from Echo to get PtL (still leaves you at 99 pts)

I simply would not consider a doom shuttle when you only have 3 ships (for a tourney). There will be at least one game where using it may very well cost you the match, so why compound the number of difficult decisions you have to make in a tourney setting?

Personally, I prefer the original list with one change: give Echo Rebel Captive instead of Recon Spec. I think it would really help you against one of your worst matchups: HSF.

I'd consider outmaneuver or predator and dump VI, and take 2 academies with the 24 points left. But I'm crazy and a lot of people will not like this idea.

Here's my thoughts:

naked Jax is not worth it. Push the Limit MINIMUM, IMO (hard to run him without hull upgrade too). If it were me, I would rather drop RS from Echo to get PtL (still leaves you at 99 pts)

I simply would not consider a doom shuttle when you only have 3 ships (for a tourney). There will be at least one game where using it may very well cost you the match, so why compound the number of difficult decisions you have to make in a tourney setting?

Personally, I prefer the original list with one change: give Echo Rebel Captive instead of Recon Spec. I think it would really help you against one of your worst matchups: HSF.

I'll echo the last thought and agree with Rebel Captive. It will also help even more against Whisper. And I'll also repeat what I've said elsewhere, I don't think VI on Echo is automatic due to lack of pilots at 6,7,8 currently being played. If you are looking to eliminate the PS 8 threats that do exist (Corran, Rexler for example) then you'll want initiative bid, and you've seen the problem with that.

I'd consider outmaneuver or predator and dump VI, and take 2 academies with the 24 points left. But I'm crazy and a lot of people will not like this idea.

Only way I'd recommend outmaneuver or a reason not to take veteran instincts is I'd you know for sure what your flying against is all lower ps.

Increase the amount of ships that may fire before you, and outmaneuver will mean nothing

It's not about shooting first, it's about moving last.

Had this discussion tonight with buddy of mine. He said using Whisper you would want to give initiative to the other player.

If they are flying Fel for example.

Moving after Fel increases your chance to arc dodge.

I still like the fact to shoot first but I see his point and it makes sense.

After thinking about it now I'm not sure what I'd rather

Would you rather a) not shoot, but also deny your opponent to shoot at you; or b) possibly shoot first (assuming you aren't outmaneuvered), and depend on your green dice to save you?

Here's my thoughts:

naked Jax is not worth it. Push the Limit MINIMUM, IMO (hard to run him without hull upgrade too). If it were me, I would rather drop RS from Echo to get PtL (still leaves you at 99 pts)

I simply would not consider a doom shuttle when you only have 3 ships (for a tourney). There will be at least one game where using it may very well cost you the match, so why compound the number of difficult decisions you have to make in a tourney setting?

Personally, I prefer the original list with one change: give Echo Rebel Captive instead of Recon Spec. I think it would really help you against one of your worst matchups: HSF.

I'll echo the last thought and agree with Rebel Captive. It will also help even more against Whisper. And I'll also repeat what I've said elsewhere, I don't think VI on Echo is automatic due to lack of pilots at 6,7,8 currently being played. If you are looking to eliminate the PS 8 threats that do exist (Corran, Rexler for example) then you'll want initiative bid, and you've seen the problem with that.

I'd consider outmaneuver or predator and dump VI, and take 2 academies with the 24 points left. But I'm crazy and a lot of people will not like this idea.

Only way I'd recommend outmaneuver or a reason not to take veteran instincts is I'd you know for sure what your flying against is all lower ps.

Increase the amount of ships that may fire before you, and outmaneuver will mean nothing

The entire list you are facing doesn't have to be below you in PS for outmaneuver. You are probably going to see 1 pilot above 5, and that pilot will be at 8 or above anyways. Everyone else will probably be below your echo still. That said, Predator is the better choice IMO.

It's not about shooting first, it's about moving last.

With ACD, I'd say it is both, but the latter is more important than the former. Of course, having one means having the other in the case of PS alone.

Would you rather a) not shoot, but also deny your opponent to shoot at you; or b) possibly shoot first (assuming you aren't outmaneuvered), and depend on your green dice to save you?

Most often I'll want to avoid shots entirely, but it isn't always the case.

Of course, in your question, there is no way to know if you are avoiding the arcs of ships that have not moved sometimes. So if I can't know, I'll take a shot at a ship if I can get one and still avoid the arcs I do know, but a lot of that depends on what I judge to be their maneuver and likely range too.

With ACD, I'd say it is both, but the latter is more important than the former. Of course, having one means having the other in the case of PS alone.

We're not talking about having the higher PS, in which case ACD does give you both. We're talking about being tied for PS and whether or not you want initiative. You can either move first shoot first, or move second shoot second.

That depends on a lot of factors. Am I likely to kill the other ship?

Again, this is about being tied for PS. If you're tied for PS, and for some reason feel like jousting with your opponent (always a bad decision in a Phantom), he's going to get to shoot back anyways.

Here's my thoughts:

naked Jax is not worth it. Push the Limit MINIMUM, IMO (hard to run him without hull upgrade too). If it were me, I would rather drop RS from Echo to get PtL (still leaves you at 99 pts)

I simply would not consider a doom shuttle when you only have 3 ships (for a tourney). There will be at least one game where using it may very well cost you the match, so why compound the number of difficult decisions you have to make in a tourney setting?

Personally, I prefer the original list with one change: give Echo Rebel Captive instead of Recon Spec. I think it would really help you against one of your worst matchups: HSF.

I'll echo the last thought and agree with Rebel Captive. It will also help even more against Whisper. And I'll also repeat what I've said elsewhere, I don't think VI on Echo is automatic due to lack of pilots at 6,7,8 currently being played. If you are looking to eliminate the PS 8 threats that do exist (Corran, Rexler for example) then you'll want initiative bid, and you've seen the problem with that.

I'd consider outmaneuver or predator and dump VI, and take 2 academies with the 24 points left. But I'm crazy and a lot of people will not like this idea.

Only way I'd recommend outmaneuver or a reason not to take veteran instincts is I'd you know for sure what your flying against is all lower ps.

Increase the amount of ships that may fire before you, and outmaneuver will mean nothing

It all depends on if you subscribe to the idea that taking VI decreases the ships that shoot before you/move after you by a significant margin. I think in most cases it does not. The bump from 6 to 8 puts you in front of the same cast of characters and behind the same cast of characters in most cases in my experience. The only notable exception is VI'd echo in a mirror match, but the OP is already losing initiative bid most likely even if he keeps up the PS arms race. That is what Rebel Captive is for - to discourage the enemy echo/whisper from targeting you.

The entire list you are facing doesn't have to be below you in PS for outmaneuver. You are probably going to see 1 pilot above 5, and that pilot will be at 8 or above anyways. Everyone else will probably be below your echo still. That said, Predator is the better choice IMO.

Fel

Han

Wedge

Vader.

But if you were to count the amount that may be able to shoot between 6-8 that's a lot if ships. Including ships like garven and Dutch

If you don't have initiative then 8 will best you out, but if you have the initiative then you don't need to worry about Howlrunner with swarm tactics and others.

Ya some ships don't see play, but lots others do.

I've seen Lando a few times.

Garven teamed up with dutch.

Howlrunner with swarm tactics

Royal guard pilots

Kath scarlet

Jonus.

Luke

These are ships I've seen. Some more than others and I've seen them all more than once.

If yout allow more ships to fire first then those elite skills means nothing.

Idv refuge recon specialist over the captive for the extra focus which also increases survivability when using two evade dice

Going against opponents where you don't know what they are flying veteran instincts is the way to go.

Ya ps9 beats 8, but at ps 8 you really give less chance for ships to one shot you.

For a fragile ship that costs so much you want her Cloaked asap. Losing her early on is near game ending and in a tournament and long day I think that insurance is well worth it.

Echo is such a beast anyway I don't think she needs the help from predator or outmaneuver.

Any time I've used her she dominated without either of those and veteran instincts was well worth it in some cases.

The few games I've lost were mostly due to bad pilot error and those abilities wouldn't have made a difference anyway

With ACD, I'd say it is both, but the latter is more important than the former. Of course, having one means having the other in the case of PS alone.

We're not talking about having the higher PS, in which case ACD does give you both. We're talking about being tied for PS and whether or not you want initiative. You can either move first shoot first, or move second shoot second.

Yes I think this is a crucial question, I having flown against other PS8 ships with the list and have sometimes struggled moving first attempting to predict their movements. shooting first obviously helps with ACD but moving last (particularly with Echo more than whisper) can arc dodge completely while snuggly slotting into range 1 of an opposing ship.