We're all stuck with Advanced Cloaking device now. There was hope that enough high PS and turrets would move people off of ACD onto this little gem that is both fun to fly and much less "invincible".

My only hope is they found the double evade (through ept/action sharing/ect) that is coming down the tubes as too powerful. Or just wanted to avoid it. Not sure.

What was broken about it? I understand the no double decloak but was a single decloak a problem?

I'm confused. I thought they changed it so you couldn't decloak then re cloak with advanced sensors. How does this effect stigian? You couldnt get 2 evades from stigian anyway as it gave you a free evade action.

They've made it so that you cannot cloak using Adv Sens, then immediately decloak. Therefore, the OP considers STA to be not worth it since without advanced Cloak, if you cloak you cannot decloak to attack until the next round

The main thing for me is that I can't decloak and fire one round, and on the very next round get the movement bonus of decloaking (by cloaking and decloaking with adv sens). I must sacrifice a round of attack if I want cloak maneuverability back. And I have to sacrifice a full round of cloak if I want to attack. I'm always stuck to one state for the other. This would be fine and is how I think Phantoms in general should sort of work, but that nasty little ACD is out there.

That is of course unless I run ACD, but if I do that I'm running Echo or Whisper. So lower PS phantoms are dead to me for the time being.

Low PS Phantoms are basically 1/2 of what high PS Phantoms are now. Would you rather have a ship that attacks every round with 4 attack dice and defends with 4 defense dice with awesome maneuverability, or a ship that is almost as costly but can maneuver well and attack on even rounds and defend on odd rounds? That is basically what this is.

Advanced cloak is fine but it is really just 2 green dice and they fail all the time. VI will appear in a lot more list now, and even Whisper with ACD is naked and open to Han, Soontir Fel , or many others with VI. The best Phantoms out there are going to be running things that emphasize defense beyond the cloak and will be depending on evading arcs or at least range 1 shots by the enemy.

There are no lists at my meta right now that aren't running hard counters to ACD. Stress and unreachable high pilot skills are everywhere. Also there are some people that just barrage the phantom with hordes of Zekes or Ties and deny it actions and shots, and with enough shots the greens will fail you eventually. Han with VI laughs at any phantom that comes along with its ACD. The better phantom players at my place are using a combination of stygium and ACD on their phantoms and are supplementing it with the sensor jammer to limit damage possibilities. In fact the sigma hits the table as often as Echo and Whisper.

Phantoms are wininng a lot, but many of the lists that are having the most trouble winning are the ones that lean on ACD.

With advanced Sensors you could cloak and decloak every round and get an evade for your troubles and shoot. Now you can have 2/3

With advanced Sensors you could cloak and declaim every round and get an evade for your troubles and shoot. Now you can have 2/3

So for 30 points I can now get a ship that does the following:

Round A) Cloak, get an evade. Do not attack. 1 evade, 4 agi

Round B) Decloak, crazy maneuver, attack. 1 evade, 2 agi.

Repeat.

This ship is capable of of either a crazy attack or crazy defense on each turn, never both. Choose 1 of the two states.

OR, for 34 points, I can get a ship that does the following.

Decloak, even crazier maneuver, focus, 4 die attack, Recloak, 4 die defense against most ships.

Repeat every turn.

Both states, 4 attack, 4 defense, crazier maneuverability each and every turn. All at PS6 and with an EPT slot open.

Why would I ever field the first ship? It is roughly 1/2 of what the second one is and to save 4 points? How the former needed nerfing and the latter is just fine is beyond me.

With advanced Sensors you could cloak and declaim every round and get an evade for your troubles and shoot. Now you can have 2/3

Yes?

So for 30 points I can now get a ship that does the following:

Round A) Cloak, get an evade. Do not attack. 1 evade, 4 agi

Round B) Decloak, crazy maneuver, attack. 1 evade, 2 agi.

Repeat.

This ship is capable of of either a crazy attack or crazy defense on each turn, never both. Choose 1 of the two states.

OR, for 34 points, I can get a ship that does the following.

Decloak, even crazier maneuver, focus, 4 die attack, Recloak, 4 die defense against most ships.

Repeat every turn.

Both states, 4 attack, 4 defense, crazier maneuverability each and every turn. All at PS6 and with an EPT slot open.

Why would I ever field the first ship?

Uh.... You only have 30 points left?

With advanced Sensors you could cloak and declaim every round and get an evade for your troubles and shoot. Now you can have 2/3

Yes?

So for 30 points I can now get a ship that does the following:

Round A) Cloak, get an evade. Do not attack. 1 evade, 4 agi

Round B) Decloak, crazy maneuver, attack. 1 evade, 2 agi.

Repeat.

This ship is capable of of either a crazy attack or crazy defense on each turn, never both. Choose 1 of the two states.

OR, for 34 points, I can get a ship that does the following.

Decloak, even crazier maneuver, focus, 4 die attack, Recloak, 4 die defense against most ships.

Repeat every turn.

Both states, 4 attack, 4 defense, crazier maneuverability each and every turn. All at PS6 and with an EPT slot open.

Why would I ever field the first ship?

Uh.... You only have 30 points left?

Seriously - would anyone ever choose this 1/2 ship over PS 9 Soontir Fel with PtL at the same cost?

With advanced Sensors you could cloak and declaim every round and get an evade for your troubles and shoot. Now you can have 2/3

Yes?

So for 30 points I can now get a ship that does the following:

Round A) Cloak, get an evade. Do not attack. 1 evade, 4 agi

Round B) Decloak, crazy maneuver, attack. 1 evade, 2 agi.

Repeat.

This ship is capable of of either a crazy attack or crazy defense on each turn, never both. Choose 1 of the two states.

OR, for 34 points, I can get a ship that does the following.

Decloak, even crazier maneuver, focus, 4 die attack, Recloak, 4 die defense against most ships.

Repeat every turn.

Both states, 4 attack, 4 defense, crazier maneuverability each and every turn. All at PS6 and with an EPT slot open.

Why would I ever field the first ship?

Uh.... You only have 30 points left?

The use case of that is so limited as to be unreal. I would trim almost any 4 points from a list before I fielded a half capable Phantom. If I absolutely couldn't find points, I'd fly something else because almost anything I spend 30 points on is more valuable than a ship that flies around attacking 1/2 the time or gets blasted because it only has 2 defense and 4 HP. It is barely better than a Bandit at 2.5 times the cost.

Seriously - would anyone ever choose this 1/2 ship over PS 9 Soontir Fel with PtL at the same cost?

Fair enough, but the point is it could be done. Not all permutations of ships and available upgrades are viable in every setting.

Advanced cloak is fine but it is really just 2 green dice and they fail all the time. VI will appear in a lot more list now, and even Whisper with ACD is naked and open to Han, Soontir Fel , or many others with VI. The best Phantoms out there are going to be running things that emphasize defense beyond the cloak and will be depending on evading arcs or at least range 1 shots by the enemy.

There are no lists at my meta right now that aren't running hard counters to ACD. Stress and unreachable high pilot skills are everywhere. Also there are some people that just barrage the phantom with hordes of Zekes or Ties and deny it actions and shots, and with enough shots the greens will fail you eventually. Han with VI laughs at any phantom that comes along with its ACD. The better phantom players at my place are using a combination of stygium and ACD on their phantoms and are supplementing it with the sensor jammer to limit damage possibilities. In fact the sigma hits the table as often as Echo and Whisper.

Phantoms are wininng a lot, but many of the lists that are having the most trouble winning are the ones that lean on ACD.

Lets not confuse arguments here. This isn't the "Phantoms are OP thread". This is the "Lower PS Phantoms are now in no way comparable on points to higher PS phantoms" thread.

Sensor Jammer is not a valuable point of discussion in the latter thread. It costs the same and gives the same benefit to either.

And you'd better start enforcing the rules against your best players. You can't combine ACD and SPA.

With advanced Sensors you could cloak and declaim every round and get an evade for your troubles and shoot. Now you can have 2/3

Yes?

So for 30 points I can now get a ship that does the following:

Round A) Cloak, get an evade. Do not attack. 1 evade, 4 agi

Round B) Decloak, crazy maneuver, attack. 1 evade, 2 agi.

Repeat.

This ship is capable of of either a crazy attack or crazy defense on each turn, never both. Choose 1 of the two states.

OR, for 34 points, I can get a ship that does the following.

Decloak, even crazier maneuver, focus, 4 die attack, Recloak, 4 die defense against most ships.

Repeat every turn.

Both states, 4 attack, 4 defense, crazier maneuverability each and every turn. All at PS6 and with an EPT slot open.

Why would I ever field the first ship?

Uh.... You only have 30 points left?

The use case of that is so limited as to be unreal. I would trim almost any 4 points from a list before I fielded a half capable Phantom. If I absolutely couldn't find points, I'd fly something else because almost anything I spend 30 points on is more valuable than a ship that flies around attacking 1/2 the time or gets blasted because it only has 2 defense and 4 HP. It is barely better than a Bandit at 2.5 times the cost.

Seriously - would anyone ever choose this 1/2 ship over PS 9 Soontir Fel with PtL at the same cost?

Fair enough, but the point is it could be done. Not all permutations of ships and available upgrades are viable in every setting.

I don't think every permutation needs to be valid, and that is not the heart of my point. We don't see low-PS phantoms tearing up (or hardly even showing up) on the tournament scene. No permutation is yet successful. And this can only make them worse. It is now like flying any advanced that isn't Vader.

With advanced Sensors you could cloak and declaim every round and get an evade for your troubles and shoot. Now you can have 2/3

Yes?

So for 30 points I can now get a ship that does the following:

Round A) Cloak, get an evade. Do not attack. 1 evade, 4 agi

Round B) Decloak, crazy maneuver, attack. 1 evade, 2 agi.

Repeat.

This ship is capable of of either a crazy attack or crazy defense on each turn, never both. Choose 1 of the two states.

OR, for 34 points, I can get a ship that does the following.

Decloak, even crazier maneuver, focus, 4 die attack, Recloak, 4 die defense against most ships.

Repeat every turn.

Both states, 4 attack, 4 defense, crazier maneuverability each and every turn. All at PS6 and with an EPT slot open.

Why would I ever field the first ship?

Uh.... You only have 30 points left?

The use case of that is so limited as to be unreal. I would trim almost any 4 points from a list before I fielded a half capable Phantom. If I absolutely couldn't find points, I'd fly something else because almost anything I spend 30 points on is more valuable than a ship that flies around attacking 1/2 the time or gets blasted because it only has 2 defense and 4 HP. It is barely better than a Bandit at 2.5 times the cost.

Seriously - would anyone ever choose this 1/2 ship over PS 9 Soontir Fel with PtL at the same cost?

Fair enough, but the point is it could be done. Not all permutations of ships and available upgrades are viable in every setting.

I don't think every permutation needs to be valid, and that is not the heart of my point. We don't see low-PS phantoms tearing up (or hardly even showing up) on the tournament scene. No permutation is yet successful. And this can only make them worse. It is now like flying any advanced that isn't Vader.

That's a false analogy. You don't see number of ships on the tourney scene. 4 Sigma Squadron pilots isn't exactly a terrible way to go. I've played it. Would I play it tourney, no. That doesn't mean it's bad. It just means the named Phantoms are just that good.

False analogy perhaps, straw man it is not. I've not misrepresented your position (or even represented your position).

I think your argument hangs itself when you state you wouldn't play it in a tourney, because that is precisely my point.

Fair enough, false analogy if you will.

Now as to not Playing the 4 Sigmas, no it doesn't make your point for you. I wouldn't play it in a tournament because I only play Rebels in serious tournaments. If I were to play Imperial I would have no qualms playing 4 Sigmas. Will I and have I played 4 Sigma's in lesser tournaments and other scenarios? Yes I have.

Again, to refocus the issue: lower pilot skill Phantoms aren't necessarily bad, the higher ps Phantoms are just that good.

The issue isn't which is better or which shows up more often... or if it's tourny worthy...it's why would being able to cloak and decloak pre-dial be a problem if we're not talking about a double decloak for double movement shenanigans? 2 Agility + 2 evade tokens and no action vs. 4 Agility + all kinds of other tokens or actions.

Phantoms are probably "better off" with ACD but the few points difference and the playstyle change (stigian + Adv sensors plays even more like a super interceptor- crazy maneuverable, reactive, and big guns with good defense due to arc dodges) and all the possibilities that has is now void. If it wasn't even the most "broken" thing before, why the nerf? Why "fix" the non-broken thing and leave the "broken" thing in tact?

Just disappointed unless there was a future combo this prevents that would be a problem...speculate away as to what combo that could be.

The Vader/Advanced analogy is starting to feel pretty on target.

I've made every point I need to make I think. There are better options for the same points, and that is the bottom line. We won't agree. Barring different upgrades, I think they aren't worth it. I'll leave time and the record to tell the final tale.

Honestly, I never would've used this combo over ACD in the first place. Yes it is the only other way to cloak/decloak and fire every round, but it is also ALWAYS your action. ACD is also action economy since it's free. And it means you're never actually cloaked for any shots your opponent makes during the round. 2 green dice plus an evade token is better than 4 green naked in that regard, but only for one shot. Ya han you might not be recloaked yet anyway (mostly echo), but at least you were for chewie/random range 3 through an asteroid type of firing arcs. Plus if chewie had a gunner, you'r evade may just hose you. And whisper will have a focus anyway with 4 greens.

Now add to all of that that sygium + adv sensors is a pt more than acd anyway, and again, since it consumes your action, you can never have a barrel roll thrown on top of your shenanigans, and you are never taking offensive actions. It's like playing a 3 die ship with expose (just as far as accuracy goes) instead of ever focus/target locking. And we all know how terrible that is. And you can i guess play a gunner on the phantom, but since you can't use a FCS it still is meh.

But I suppose it's all a moot point now. A strange call on FFG's part I think to do away with it, since at least 99% of the time ACD is much better anyway. ACD really should've either given you a stress after using it to make your manuevering on the next round a bit more predictable, like one poster suggested on these boards before (I mean really, that would make it much closer in power scale to ptl interceptors), or ACD should've probably been 6 points, so that it was AT LEAST more expensive than this failed combination. When you combine all of the potential action economy of the free giant barrel roll + free cloak + free target locks/focus tokens, it's no wonder phantoms are as absurd as they are.

So.. Would you risk not using VI and run PTL? This would require not allowing shots, meaning turrets would be a problem that would be unavoidable..well Han anyway. Question is..if whisper were to AS/ PTL for focus/ lock (2 with recon), decloak move, dial move a two to clear the stress and take a focus locked shot, then take the free cloak from ACD, focus if you hit (should have 2)....is that an acceptable cost to pay? What if you evade/ focus? Assuming you land a hit you end at 4 agility with an evade and 2 focus.

The situation may simplify slightly when fleet office arrives..

Well, it is a bit off topic, but right now I don't actually see that it is mandatory to run VI on Echo. Phantoms and Z95s have pushed a good deal of lists to the extremes. Lots of 1-4 (and some like Chewie at 5) PS and lots of 8,9,10. So getting Echo to PS8 isn't all that critical IMO. You are avoiding getting shot at by pilots that aren't being flow very much. I think most disagree with me on this though.

PtL only really works if you do as you have stated and have AdvSens, but the maneuverability hit is pretty huge if you are picking green every time. And without VI, I would want the added protection of Rebel Captive to help against Whispers and Echos, so I'm not certain you would get RecSpec and the token spam.

I think VI is still awfully hard to pass up on Whisper.

Advanced cloak is fine but it is really just 2 green dice and they fail all the time. VI will appear in a lot more list now, and even Whisper with ACD is naked and open to Han, Soontir Fel , or many others with VI. The best Phantoms out there are going to be running things that emphasize defense beyond the cloak and will be depending on evading arcs or at least range 1 shots by the enemy.

There are no lists at my meta right now that aren't running hard counters to ACD. Stress and unreachable high pilot skills are everywhere. Also there are some people that just barrage the phantom with hordes of Zekes or Ties and deny it actions and shots, and with enough shots the greens will fail you eventually. Han with VI laughs at any phantom that comes along with its ACD. The better phantom players at my place are using a combination of stygium and ACD on their phantoms and are supplementing it with the sensor jammer to limit damage possibilities. In fact the sigma hits the table as often as Echo and Whisper.

Phantoms are wininng a lot, but many of the lists that are having the most trouble winning are the ones that lean on ACD.

Lets not confuse arguments here. This isn't the "Phantoms are OP thread". This is the "Lower PS Phantoms are now in no way comparable on points to higher PS phantoms" thread.

Sensor Jammer is not a valuable point of discussion in the latter thread. It costs the same and gives the same benefit to either.

And you'd better start enforcing the rules against your best players. You can't combine ACD and SPA.

They aren't combining them on one ship. They are putting ACD on one phantom and SPA on another. The lower pilot skill phantoms are really good, and can afford more upgrades like tactical jammer. You can put 3 SPA's and 3 tactical jammers on three sigmas and wreck a lot of lists out there add in a rebel captive, and a couple tacticians and you can stress out the other guys ships to where they won't have focus to attack you through your tactical jammers. Or you can drop one or two tacticians to get initiative, or you can switch one of the sigmas for whisper or echo by dropping the crew. All effective and fun.

I AM saddened by this change. Advanced Cloaking + Stygium at least sounded fun! Could pair it with a Howl + 4 Tie swarm for quite an effective squad...

I ran PTL/Stigian/Adv Sens Echo a few times and was quite surprised by it's effectiveness... add a recon for double evade double focus and an action at the cost of stress. Hits like a tank and can weather one ships fire every round but not much more than that