i swear i put this up somewhere.

If you not running it of lannister. 3x refugees, about 10-12 0-2 cost charcaters. Reducers are your friend. If there is nothing to steal play your reins events like crazy and you only need to save 1 gold minimuim (plus if there is nothing to steal MWnK is not useless as he has already impacted ytour opponets deck).

Yeha - its not really a deck so to speak. Its a pwoerful little army on its own, and as long as you are running sufficient (6-9) reinforcement events and you have a good gold curve - its not a probelm to set the combo up. Run it ut of anyhting - Bara Rush, Stark armies/kill, whatever flaots your baot. teh real impact is on your event allotment - how many events are you comfotrable with running in your build? Men with No king just take up a couple of four gold slots.

And yeah - maybe you can't fire them the turn you play them. But so what? Your opponent probably won't drop any other neutrals for a while, and the ones on the board will be immediately vulnerable on the next turn.

Lars, I want to point out one logical fallacy you've repeated on numerous occassions...

You say that if your opponent is not playing valid targets that Men Without Hats has done it's job/had an ipact... but a lot of people in my meta play with few neutrals or OOH characters to begin with. We just don't go in for a lot of toolboxing cards that they can target, attachments and specialized events I've found often do the job for me just fine.

The question then becomes does the deck itself contain enough power and versatility to stop mine. In LCG I can't answer that question, but in Standard I'd have to say no. Cancel's and targeted effects can easily control a deck with so many events-turn-characters and low cost claim-soak, from a general standpoint (whether it can do so in your specific deck is of course an entirely different question).

If I don't build with a lot of targets, not because of fear and therefore altering my play style, but because I naturally turn to other cards and deck design I am not impacted strategically by your deck in the least. If I don't have valid targets on the board and you keep drawing into low cost low strength characters while I'm drawing into power cards there is a high chance you are going to be slipping behind the power curve.

The real power of this deck to me is not the MwnK but the rein events. The keywords and icons whether it is seasonally based or loss of a challenge based is difficult to deal with for a deck that either doesn't stack a lot of intrigue or resource control.

again you are relying on standard, a format that does not exist, to counter my 'logical fallicy'.

I don't give two ***** about this card in standard. MWnK is a problem in LCG (especially with the lack of cancel), which i've maintained since the get go.

MWnK = toolbox, right? it gives me location control, character control, and at worst non-unique great STR in military and power challenges.

Reins events = toolbox right? renown, stealth, bonus to losing a challenge, deadly, discard pile recursion, and icon diversity.

All houses in LCG have holes. People say lannister is the top house in LCG. Their power grab is devistatingly limited. What whould help...Reins...if your running Reins you have to (this is not hyperbole) run MWnK to protect you reins events.

Bara some might argue that is lacking draw...what do you put in for draw? sam and ravens? well guess what, unless you want your opponet using them you have to put in MWnK.

Stark....well build a bear island deck. or read about the ones on here. what would be nice? any nuetral in the game that helps...guess what you need in your deck to protect them? MWnK.

Targ. Solid...don't do anything spectecular...renown and draw could be useful...see above.

Martell/GJ right now - unplayable w/ MWnK in the game becuase they can only have 3 in house locations....not even going into the charcater pool limitations.

A big complaint about LCG is lack of resources, well if you want Streets or Roads...MWnK.

Now, you choose not to use any nuetrals or OOH and no MWnK/Reins...well how are going to overcome your holes while i'm toolboxing away? Thus, MWnK has done its job by giving me access to at least 33% more options then you. You might not see it, but its there and not a fallacy.

My MWnK take 2 thread tried to answer the question, what non nuetral deck beats MWnK? I postulated some, but no one else did. Those decks, my meta and I discussed and use often. We didn't see that any one of them would reliably beat MWnK, specifically becuase of the Reins. Lanni kneel needs to win challenges to win the game...therefore playing right into the reins. Bara rush no longer has the renown advanatage (and becomes a race to get mel out/milk her). Stark bear island was discounted by the community before MWnK came out. Targ runs into a problem against bara or Lanni MWnK becuase of Fury of the stag and lack of immmunity.

After months of 'lurking' these boards, I'm back.

For those who will make it to Ktom's on the 24th, I look forward to seeing you all, catching up and maybe capture some of the wonderful vibe that used to be before things turned...in a less favorable direction.

To those who can't make it, we're sorry to be missing your presence, and hopefully we'll catch you on the next go around.

Peace (you to Nate)

Sheik

(God, I'm doing it again - hijacking my own thread!)

Lars said:

Here's where I think dormouse is on point, whether he knows it or not: Other than the Streets and the Birds, how much neutral toolbox is there really in LCG? Not counting Greyjoy or Martell LCG decks, I see maybe the occasional Maester Aemon, Sam or Gilly. (I don't even see much of Jon and Ghost, which surprises me a little.) And, of course, MWnK and the Reinforcements, right? So they serve to control themselves, which is what they were intended to do.

How much OOH toolboxing is really happening, either? Around here, not too much. The cost is often seen as prohibitive. Most of the "toolboxing" control seems to be in neutral attachments, events and reset plots, which are beyond MWnK, anyway. So I don't necessarily see MWnK discouraging neutral or OOH toolboxing nearly as much as the quantity and quality of neutral or OOH toolboxing available that really fits your deck is "still in development," as it were.

I'm not saying it's fallacy, but I do think there is a regional or meta-based degree to it. Logically, I see where it could be a problem in a specific situation, but I'm not convinced the situation is common. Maybe it's like the old Septon deck - it's almost impossible to conceive it as a problem until you actually play against it.

Whoot to that... (can we please move the MwNK discussion back out of this thread... I'm getting a headache trying to follow a dialogue <or is a myrialogue with this many "voices?">)

I was inclined but unsure... Lord Vader, I will redouble my efforts to secure transport to make this blossoming event.

Werd, y'alls... just sad I didn't even get a ktom comment on my .sig

Maester_LUke said:

You're more than welcome, and it would be great to see you. We can certainly swing accommodations Sat/Sun night if you convince some other MN-ite (What's Tha Nick-ler up to these days) to share the drive.

Maester_LUke said:

Hard to see them on these boards, so I hardly ever read them.

Anyway, we'd be glad to see you, but no matter where you go that weekend ... there you are.

Hmmmm.

Flights from NY to Chicago are in teh 275-300 range. Still probably not do-able right now, but defintiely somehting to keep in mind if OP really does start to pick up steam.

Just an update. I talked to both AY and Complord and they both are maybe. Although Complord seems to be a rather strong maybe. Pretty much as long as this doesn't conflict with a family reunion then he's there. AY hasn't even build a deck but he said he was going to. so who know's.

Also, andrew is coming by tomorrow. Maybe I'll post some decklists/mini game reports. I really need to beat that **** gj deck!

Staton said:

Good news on the attendance figures... <psst, though staton, you should keep a lid on it.. you never know who might want their appearance to be a surprise>

~Have you tried Targ Summer or MwNK? That always seems to be the solution.

Staton's too busy getting pasted by his roommate and Andrew to post right now, but apparently he says it sucks to play against two Kings of Winter decks in melee, unless you've chosen to draw very few cards to begin with. Hopefully he'll finish on a high note and be excited to post on here his other finds.

In other news, don't be foolish and break your own cellphone or laptop.

Maester_LUke said:

~ For some reasons i think there is a numer of misprints of MwNK that read "Response: Play a reins event to win the game" , i just was so unlucky to open the normal prints in my chapter packs. ;-)

Besides, good luck for your event, i hope as much players as possible will appear. It´ll be interesting to see some results of a bigger tournament after we haven´t had to many of these lately.

Old Ben said:

I'll continue to be the butt of jokes thats fine (though i don't get the targ summer reference).

Nick-ler's in the process of moving from Cambridge to the Twin Cities. Can't even get him to stick around the store for more than 15 minutes, though I think it would be great if he got back into the game.

In all fairness to Lars, if they are playing Standard, the MwNK reference is inapplicable.

And if people want their appearance to be a surprise, that's fine. But if they don't tell me they're coming, there may not be enough food.

Yeah, I figured that AY and Complord were both too lazy to post on here rather than wanting it to be any surprise. ~Plus, if Complord's coming, Ktom may need to take some extra precautions!

Also, Andrew's GJ deck dominated me AGAIN! But I just don't get it! I get horrible flops against ONLY him it seems. I played over a dozen games during the week against John, our other GJ player, and did fine. I had great flops and my deck for the most part did what it was designed to do. Against Andrew it just craps out. I did put in some Paper Shields though, so we'll see how those help the deck. Although sucks that it says without gold or influence. I remembered it being only without an influence cost. Oh wells. Still stops all those **** kill cards, for the most part.

And as to the situation that Luke talked about, it does indeed suck getting 2 cards a turn picked from your hand. It also sucks when Andrew steals my locations the turn he plays Valar so I'm left with 2 gold to marshall with. Bastard! All in all though it was a good time. We got John's GJ working pretty well, as well as Andrew's Baratheon deck. Funny story actually, Andrew was playing against John in a joust game, and actually won by laying out Willas Tyrell. It would've been cool if Andrew hadn't let John spend about 6 minutes trying to figure out how to marshall. Then it just turned into a **** move. haha

I believe the results looked like this.

My Baratheon deck beat Andrew's Bara Tyrell deck.

My Baratheon deck lost to John's Summer Bara deck

Andrew's Bara Tyrell deck beat John's GJ deck

Andrew's GJ deck beat both John's Stark Winter deck as well as my Bara deck.

Andrew's GJ deck beat my Bara deck three more times.

I really need to better represent the House of the Stag.

Lars said:

I took the Targ summer reference as a joke about all the people (me too!) which say that Targ summer offers all / a lot of answers and is superior to every non-Targ summer deck. I think i have constantly wrote that i think that it´s much to hard to keep the winter around against all well prepared Targ summer deck and that i wouldn´t play the kings of winter agenda for that reason (neither in LCG nor in any other format).

A Targ deck that runs:

• 3x Lady Daenerys Chambers
• 3x carrion birds
• 3x black ravens
• serach plots for the named cards
• attachment control (to keep Lady Daenys chambers free off high tides)

should really be able to keep the summer going.

I thought Luke was referencing to this discussion, though i might be wrong.

Old Ben said:

You are exactly correct, Ben. (Why do I get this strange sense of Deja Vu hearing Luke agree with Old Ben?)

Though I mistakenly offered Lars my apologies in the wrong thread, as the conversation has "spread."

I had my first LCG experience, both with Targ/Summer and MwNK yesterday and I certainly felt both were strong... and they raised a point I hope to bring up in a post after lunch... time for me to eat.

And I do wonder if the seasons would have worked better with the ravens as a unique cardtype, so the possibility of alternative removal/recursion was not so tied to pre-existing house strengths and weaknesses.

Let's please send any further responses to this sidebar in their own thread... I'm already confused. And besides I want to hear more people say they're visiting Chicago.

Ktom and others, a request: If someone would be willing to record the results of the gathering (match level info --who played who using which houses and outcome-- ordered by round and noting format played) and forward that to Sithlord or me (you can use the email address in my signature block), Sith will use the info for computing ratings and I will add it to the NYC website. (FYI: the NYC meta's ratings will be getting another update shortly as we finish factoring in recent past results.) Thanks.

Sheik said:

I hope your tetanus shot is up to date cause you're about to get beat by a rusty old man.

Bwahahahaha!

LetsGoRed said:

Well, I'm not sure you're going to want it for this event. We're doing a sort of hybrid between tournament and casual play because folks haven't played in so long. We'll be doing pairings to keep things moving and people playing as many opponents as possible, but we're allowing people to tweak, sideboard or play totally different decks (and multiple games) between and within the paired "rounds." Even things like House and outcome (they split two games and play a total of 4 decks between them) are likely to be very fluid.

So it's not likely to be comparable to the competitive environments you guys are tracking for your player ratings.

ShivesMcShivers said:

Was than an RSVP, a poke at Sheik or both?

That was both

OMGPOSTTOOSHORTLAME