My bad. But still my point remains

Ok… something that's been bugging me but sitting on the edge of iteration just came to light, but first, an analogy must be made.

Anyone who plays video games and pays attention to video game reviews knows that video games get reviewed oddly. The consumers of such media tend to view even a hefty score such as a 7.5 or 8 as borderline unplayable. Anything less than a 9 or 10 is almost shunned.

I feel the same parable can be drawn for the Defender. It gets decried as having a terrible or underwhelming dial, but really… just how good do you need the dial to be? I mean yes, it is stressful to perform moves that some other imperial ships can do with ease. But does that make it bad? It has every maneuver in the game. No one complains about the dial on say an X-wing, but there's things it can't do. It can't go 5 straight, has only one k-turn, and can't make a 1 hard. But it's serviceable as all getout. The B-Wing and Y-wing have some of the most pathetic little flowers in the game, and half of the B-Wing's dial is red. But it's arguably one of the most dangerous knife fighters in X-Wing. But the Defender's mix of slow banks and fast straights give it some of the best range control in this game.

Anyone who has paid attention to some of my posts over the past few months knows I espouse a certain play style. Namely that I am a fan of engaging an opponent for a few turns, and then burning hard if it's not going well. In this respect, If I'm setting up for a very hit/miss turn, the tight turns followed by straight shots a turn later to get away have been very useful. Most people who fly TIEs are used to getting into and staying in those close quarters where repeatedly turning tight is an advantage because most adversaries can't keep up with it.

So Winner, to answer your question, no. it's not just because "i fly it" amazingly. But, I will say this: if you fly it with the mentality of a TIE fighter then yes. You will not do well. You'll find yourself in positions where you need to take stress to turn like you normally might again and again. But that's just it: it's an Imperial ship, a non-large base ship, but it's not a TIE Fighter. If you do keep thinking from that angle then yes. That dial is going to seem untenable. It's not a turn fighter, and really can't effectively be flown as one. I once heard someone compare the Defender to a modern fighter jet, and I can't help but feel that is an apt description. Can it turn like a Spitfire? No. Can it lock onto something from a mile off, blow it out of the sky, then blaze through where that plane was 30 seconds ago at mach 2? Yes. Yes it can.

I think mainly what it is (at least for me) is the points. The reason no one complains about a ywings dial or an xwings or bwings is because your not paying 30 dang points for a ps1. I think for 30 points people expect more from a little ship and that's why it's taking a lot of heat. It's essentially a 1/3 of your squad points for a ship that has an underwhelming dial. It fits a certain role as you've stated, it's just a matter of wether someone thinks it's worth it or not. Really the only thing that's similar is a bounty hunter and even that is ps3 and has 10 hp. I'm not trying to compare the 2 but I'm just pointing out what people might be expecting from it if it's costing 30 points.

Ok… something that's been bugging me but sitting on the edge of iteration just came to light, but first, an analogy must be made.

Anyone who plays video games and pays attention to video game reviews knows that video games get reviewed oddly. The consumers of such media tend to view even a hefty score such as a 7.5 or 8 as borderline unplayable. Anything less than a 9 or 10 is almost shunned.

I feel the same parable can be drawn for the Defender. It gets decried as having a terrible or underwhelming dial, but really… just how good do you need the dial to be? I mean yes, it is stressful to perform moves that some other imperial ships can do with ease. But does that make it bad? It has every maneuver in the game. No one complains about the dial on say an X-wing, but there's things it can't do. It can't go 5 straight, has only one k-turn, and can't make a 1 hard. But it's serviceable as all getout. The B-Wing and Y-wing have some of the most pathetic little flowers in the game, and half of the B-Wing's dial is red. But it's arguably one of the most dangerous knife fighters in X-Wing. But the Defender's mix of slow banks and fast straights give it some of the best range control in this game.

Anyone who has paid attention to some of my posts over the past few months knows I espouse a certain play style. Namely that I am a fan of engaging an opponent for a few turns, and then burning hard if it's not going well. In this respect, If I'm setting up for a very hit/miss turn, the tight turns followed by straight shots a turn later to get away have been very useful. Most people who fly TIEs are used to getting into and staying in those close quarters where repeatedly turning tight is an advantage because most adversaries can't keep up with it.

So Winner, to answer your question, no. it's not just because "i fly it" amazingly. But, I will say this: if you fly it with the mentality of a TIE fighter then yes. You will not do well. You'll find yourself in positions where you need to take stress to turn like you normally might again and again. But that's just it: it's an Imperial ship, a non-large base ship, but it's not a TIE Fighter. If you do keep thinking from that angle then yes. That dial is going to seem untenable. It's not a turn fighter, and really can't effectively be flown as one. I once heard someone compare the Defender to a modern fighter jet, and I can't help but feel that is an apt description. Can it turn like a Spitfire? No. Can it lock onto something from a mile off, blow it out of the sky, then blaze through where that plane was 30 seconds ago at mach 2? Yes. Yes it can.

I think mainly what it is (at least for me) is the points. The reason no one complains about a ywings dial or an xwings or bwings is because your not paying 30 dang points for a ps1. I think for 30 points people expect more from a little ship and that's why it's taking a lot of heat. It's essentially a 1/3 of your squad points for a ship that has an underwhelming dial. It fits a certain role as you've stated, it's just a matter of wether someone thinks it's worth it or not. Really the only thing that's similar is a bounty hunter and even that is ps3 and has 10 hp. I'm not trying to compare the 2 but I'm just pointing out what people might be expecting from it if it's costing 30 points.

The lower cost Xwings aren't being used much either and people don't complain about the Y-wing because it's the cheapest ion platform out there, without that, it would see very little use.

I actually think most of the people (though not all) who are not a fan of the defender are people that haven't tried to make it work. Most of the people that give it a reasonable shot seem to like it, or are at least pleasantly surprised.

Edit: I want to be clear this isn't me trying to put down those that may be theory crafting, but based on the language used, it seems that many of the comments (again many, not all) from people arguing against the positives of the ship use language that distances them from the ship or don't really talk about their own experience.

Ok… something that's been bugging me but sitting on the edge of iteration just came to light, but first, an analogy must be made.

Anyone who plays video games and pays attention to video game reviews knows that video games get reviewed oddly. The consumers of such media tend to view even a hefty score such as a 7.5 or 8 as borderline unplayable. Anything less than a 9 or 10 is almost shunned.

I feel the same parable can be drawn for the Defender. It gets decried as having a terrible or underwhelming dial, but really… just how good do you need the dial to be? I mean yes, it is stressful to perform moves that some other imperial ships can do with ease. But does that make it bad? It has every maneuver in the game. No one complains about the dial on say an X-wing, but there's things it can't do. It can't go 5 straight, has only one k-turn, and can't make a 1 hard. But it's serviceable as all getout. The B-Wing and Y-wing have some of the most pathetic little flowers in the game, and half of the B-Wing's dial is red. But it's arguably one of the most dangerous knife fighters in X-Wing. But the Defender's mix of slow banks and fast straights give it some of the best range control in this game.

Anyone who has paid attention to some of my posts over the past few months knows I espouse a certain play style. Namely that I am a fan of engaging an opponent for a few turns, and then burning hard if it's not going well. In this respect, If I'm setting up for a very hit/miss turn, the tight turns followed by straight shots a turn later to get away have been very useful. Most people who fly TIEs are used to getting into and staying in those close quarters where repeatedly turning tight is an advantage because most adversaries can't keep up with it.

So Winner, to answer your question, no. it's not just because "i fly it" amazingly. But, I will say this: if you fly it with the mentality of a TIE fighter then yes. You will not do well. You'll find yourself in positions where you need to take stress to turn like you normally might again and again. But that's just it: it's an Imperial ship, a non-large base ship, but it's not a TIE Fighter. If you do keep thinking from that angle then yes. That dial is going to seem untenable. It's not a turn fighter, and really can't effectively be flown as one. I once heard someone compare the Defender to a modern fighter jet, and I can't help but feel that is an apt description. Can it turn like a Spitfire? No. Can it lock onto something from a mile off, blow it out of the sky, then blaze through where that plane was 30 seconds ago at mach 2? Yes. Yes it can.

I think mainly what it is (at least for me) is the points. The reason no one complains about a ywings dial or an xwings or bwings is because your not paying 30 dang points for a ps1. I think for 30 points people expect more from a little ship and that's why it's taking a lot of heat. It's essentially a 1/3 of your squad points for a ship that has an underwhelming dial. It fits a certain role as you've stated, it's just a matter of wether someone thinks it's worth it or not. Really the only thing that's similar is a bounty hunter and even that is ps3 and has 10 hp. I'm not trying to compare the 2 but I'm just pointing out what people might be expecting from it if it's costing 30 points.

What do you see as wrong with the dial? Is it just because it's not like a Tie?

I have found the dial appropriate for it. Just because you lose 2/3 of the hard turns as red manuevers doesn't make it bad. And as mentioned before it has barrel roll. 1 bank with barrel roll is an excellent manuever. So is a 3 hard turn with a barrel roll.

I get what you mean about the points, Jaden. And personally, I'd have loved to see a generic PS 3-5 with an EPT, that would have opened up huge possibilities. I just don't see how "every possible maneuver in the game" is underwhelming, Even with some reds.

Though, with the derth of mid-skill pilots on this thing, one absolutely must wonder what pilots the future may have in store for it. I would love to see a support Defender pilot. Perhaps something like

Defender PS 5

During the combat phase, you may choose one friendly ship at range 1-2. Treat that ship as if its pilot skill were 2 higher than it actually is.

Then you could theoretically finally get an Imperial up to PS 12.

I get what you mean about the points, Jaden. And personally, I'd have loved to see a generic PS 3-5 with an EPT, that would have opened up huge possibilities. I just don't see how "every possible maneuver in the game" is underwhelming, Even with some reds.

Though, with the derth of mid-skill pilots on this thing, one absolutely must wonder what pilots the future may have in store for it. I would love to see a support Defender pilot. Perhaps something like

Defender PS 5

During the combat phase, you may choose one friendly ship at range 1-2. Treat that ship as if its pilot skill were 2 higher than it actually is.

Then you could theoretically finally get an Imperial up to PS 12.

Couldn't that get Vader or Soontir up to 13 with VI?

Indeed it could. Indeed. It. Could.

I get what you mean about the points, Jaden. And personally, I'd have loved to see a generic PS 3-5 with an EPT, that would have opened up huge possibilities. I just don't see how "every possible maneuver in the game" is underwhelming, Even with some reds.

Though, with the derth of mid-skill pilots on this thing, one absolutely must wonder what pilots the future may have in store for it. I would love to see a support Defender pilot. Perhaps something like

Defender PS 5

During the combat phase, you may choose one friendly ship at range 1-2. Treat that ship as if its pilot skill were 2 higher than it actually is.

Then you could theoretically finally get an Imperial up to PS 12.

Save it for the advanced retool or lambda or bomber. Defender isn't flying support... It needs support. I'd much rather see a maneuverability, offensive, or defensive ability: copy the token/action bar of a range 1 friendly. Something that makes this 30+pts of offense a little easier to get 30pts out of. EPT and/or a 1 PS bump to the midrange would hav gone a long way. PS 1 at 30 is nice as you move first and can "garuntee" your placement.

Seeing a few E-wings out there in tournament-land.

They get a few toys that the TIE-D does not, but the reverse is true as well.

I think we can dispense with the notion that the Defender is not capable of competitive success.

I like the Defender well enough. It's finding a squad that works well with it that is hard. Since you'll be turning out of combat and coming back in the following round, you'll need ships that can either weather the storm without Defender support, or ships that can arc dodge or get out of town just as well. If you turn your Defender away and let the rest of your squad get pummeled, that won't do you any good. I've had best results with Ion / HLC, mostly to reduce that range 3 bonus green dice.

I think the Defender is slowly finding its niche, just like the Shuttle did. I mean, people were VERY much against the shuttle. Now it's considered a solid shop, earning its place in a lot of great squads and occasionally winning some big tourneys. Let's not shoot the Defender down yet (pun). It clearly doesn't suck as bad as the Tie Advanced, after all.

Just my 2 cents, take it as you will.

I get what you mean about the points, Jaden. And personally, I'd have loved to see a generic PS 3-5 with an EPT, that would have opened up huge possibilities. I just don't see how "every possible maneuver in the game" is underwhelming, Even with some reds.

Though, with the derth of mid-skill pilots on this thing, one absolutely must wonder what pilots the future may have in store for it. I would love to see a support Defender pilot. Perhaps something like

Defender PS 5

During the combat phase, you may choose one friendly ship at range 1-2. Treat that ship as if its pilot skill were 2 higher than it actually is.

Then you could theoretically finally get an Imperial up to PS 12.

By underwhelming I mean i think they should have added a little more green to the dial instead of just straights. A range band 3 bank green would be nice, it's not much but just a little extra to help lose stress. Being that the defender only has green straight maneuvers it's major weakness is stress which means flachettes will be its arch enemy haha or the stress dealing droid I forget what he is off the top of my head. It can perform all the maneuvers as you've said I don't have a problem with that, my 2 gripes are the lack of green banks and the point cost. Other than that I find it a decent ship.

Stress is not actually much of an issue for the TIE-D at all. You can fly around with it all day, not giving a ****. I mean, you want to take actions eventually but it's really not a big deal. This goes double for Vessery.

Frankly pulling a k-turn then doing a green two forward is no hardship, or boosting away with a five forward then turning also works keeping you at range where you want to be with a HLC.

People are hung up on the red turns but I've yet to use them in any game there have been plenty of other options.

Frankly pulling a k-turn then doing a green two forward is no hardship, or boosting away with a five forward then turning also works keeping you at range where you want to be with a HLC.

People are hung up on the red turns but I've yet to use them in any game there have been plenty of other options.

True there are maneuver options while stressed however to lose it your limited to only straight maneuvers. Yes you can kturn the 1st round but get no actions since your still stressed and then the next round you do a green straight. All I'm saying is it would be nice to have a couple other options to ditch stress besides just a straight maneuver especially for the empires most advanced and mobile ship.

That is what Wingman/Captain Yorr is for.

Yup. That's what they're for.

I totally understand from a design perspective why they only gave it straight greens. Having fielded the thing a lot, I can say that if they had it would have been too powerful. And what's wrong with only taking straight greens? You keep saying that like it's this super horrible thing, but it's really not all that unfeasible to manage. Hobojebus is right. Besides, the ability to k-fight while stressed is really powerful, and Vessery really doesn't mind a turn or two of stress. Neither does Rexler, if he's got something like Predator to help mitigate his attack rolls.

Rexlers ability is only going to come in end game once shields are stripped anyway, plus wave five will let you hand out focus tokens from a support ship so even stressed he'll be deadly.

Yup. That's what they're for.

I totally understand from a design perspective why they only gave it straight greens. Having fielded the thing a lot, I can say that if they had it would have been too powerful. And what's wrong with only taking straight greens? You keep saying that like it's this super horrible thing, but it's really not all that unfeasible to manage. Hobojebus is right. Besides, the ability to k-fight while stressed is really powerful, and Vessery really doesn't mind a turn or two of stress. Neither does Rexler, if he's got something like Predator to help mitigate his attack rolls.

Well put it this way if your stressed you get no actions right? We all know how much focus adds to an attack or defense roll, so if you are stressed your going to want to get rid of it sooner rather than later since you would be limiting your attack potential and defense potential each round you can't take an action. Therefore since you want to clear your stress your move becomes predicatable since you can ONLY go straight to clear it unless your running wingman as stated or mr. yorr (that's another subject tho we're talking about just the defender right now). Yes you can hold off on clearing it and try to throw your opponent off but again your limiting your damage and defense. That's why I say I don't like just straight greens to clear stress. If you add just a range 3 bank that's green as well, it helps to be less predicatable when stressed. I don't mean it's a terrible thing but your talking about Kturning while stressed (I'm guessing in order to attack) but it's a 4 Kturn which most likely (I mean roughly) puts you in a range band 1-2 shot. So here you'll either be rolling 3 or 4 dice un modified (unless you have predator which means your now fielding a ship costing min. 38 points). This can be said of other ships too that Kturn and take a stress but the thing with other ships is at least there's more options to clear it to keep your opponent on his toes. I'm just not sure if I want to spend all those points on a ship like that. That's all I'm really trying to say. Again it's not terrible I just don't particularly care for your options when stressed compared to other ships that cost less, dish out the same damage and deal with stress better. Just my opinion is all, that's my breakdown when I look at this ship for strengths and weaknesses. Every ship has them and with the defender I see stress being more of a factor than other ships because of the dial. Doesn't make it a horrible ship but as others have stated unless you run a list with something to mitigate the stress it could be exploited by your opponent. There are more than one way to look at this so I don't expect everyone to see it the way I do. Believe me I do see what your saying too about dealing with the stress, it is possible and I get that. To each his own. I've played the defender a few times now and as was mentioned it doesn't fly the same as other ties. I think it would really shine with a list like: customize to fit-Defender, shuttle, firespray or defender, firespray, bomber w/ordnance. Sort of a triple threat list maybe using yorr as stated or wingman on the bomber.

Jaden that wall of text just crit my eyes for 3 damage.

Yup. That's what they're for.

I totally understand from a design perspective why they only gave it straight greens. Having fielded the thing a lot, I can say that if they had it would have been too powerful. And what's wrong with only taking straight greens? You keep saying that like it's this super horrible thing, but it's really not all that unfeasible to manage. Hobojebus is right. Besides, the ability to k-fight while stressed is really powerful, and Vessery really doesn't mind a turn or two of stress. Neither does Rexler, if he's got something like Predator to help mitigate his attack rolls.

Well put it this way if your stressed you get no actions right? We all know how much focus adds to an attack or defense roll, so if you are stressed your going to want to get rid of it sooner rather than later since you would be limiting your attack potential and defense potential each round you can't take an action.

Therefore since you want to clear your stress your move becomes predicatable since you can ONLY go straight to clear it unless your running wingman as stated or mr. yorr (that's another subject tho we're talking about just the defender right now). Yes you can hold off on clearing it and try to throw your opponent off but again your limiting your damage and defense.

That's why I say I don't like just straight greens to clear stress. If you add just a range 3 bank that's green as well, it helps to be less predicatable when stressed. I don't mean it's a terrible thing but your talking about Kturning while stressed (I'm guessing in order to attack) but it's a 4 Kturn which most likely (I mean roughly) puts you in a range band 1-2 shot. So here you'll either be rolling 3 or 4 dice un modified (unless you have predator which means your now fielding a ship costing min. 38 points).

This can be said of other ships too that Kturn and take a stress but the thing with other ships is at least there's more options to clear it to keep your opponent on his toes. I'm just not sure if I want to spend all those points on a ship like that. That's all I'm really trying to say. Again it's not terrible I just don't particularly care for your options when stressed compared to other ships that cost less, dish out the same damage and deal with stress better.

Just my opinion is all, that's my breakdown when I look at this ship for strengths and weaknesses. Every ship has them and with the defender I see stress being more of a factor than other ships because of the dial. Doesn't make it a horrible ship but as others have stated unless you run a list with something to mitigate the stress it could be exploited by your opponent.

There are more than one way to look at this so I don't expect everyone to see it the way I do. Believe me I do see what your saying too about dealing with the stress, it is possible and I get that. To each his own. I've played the defender a few times now and as was mentioned it doesn't fly the same as other ties. I think it would really shine with a list like: customize to fit-Defender, shuttle, firespray or defender, firespray, bomber w/ordnance. Sort of a triple threat list maybe using yorr as stated or wingman on the bomber.

No ones saying its not a potential issue but i've used the defender plenty and its yet to come up and i personally have only had to use a hard right once and that was a 3 so no stress, other wise banks and k turns have seen me demolishing my enemies.

Well that's fine a good but when someone fires flachettes or uses the stress droid it changed things. At my stores for some reason people love flachettes and stress dealing for some reason haha. Without those yes you could never see the need to hard turn and be fine. PTL also gives you stres tho wich is a really good upgrade to take maybe not on a defender tho.

So I'm thinking about a defender centric list for my first tourney at a local game shop. I'm thinking something along the lines of these that I threw together:

http://xwing-builder.co.uk/view/108967/tourney-v1

http://xwing-builder.co.uk/view/108968/tourney-v2

http://xwing-builder.co.uk/view/108969/tourney-v3

http://xwing-builder.co.uk/view/108970/tournament-v4

Any advice? Or are these potentially good lists? I'm going to try them out of course.

Jaden, I don't totally agree with you on predictability. See, for many stressed ships the game you play is "what move will they take to clear stress". With the Defender the game becomes "is he going to try to clear stress or not?" As to the ship cost? I see your minimum 38 and raise you a 47. Because I looooove me some Rexler + Predator + HLC. Half my squad? Sure. Doesn't matter because he's a beast, and benefits from those large, sweeping maneuvers.

I've had a lot of games where I've taken white maneuvers when opponents expected green ones. But more than that, you might think that the defender is going to clear stress but it still has many distances that it can pick. It can move between 2-5 with a barrel roll after. That's not as easy to predict as you might think. And just because you might know it's coming, that doesn't mean you can actually do something about it. Depending on the circumstances, you might just not be physically capable of bringing your ship or ships around to deal with something like a green 5 straight.

That 5 straight also lends itself well from jumping from engagement to engagement in the midst of a battle, especially when separate shootouts are occurring in one game. It can really hurt to be on the receiving end of a Defender that 5-straighted out of one fight to lend fire support when you weren't expecting it (in my experience this has seen the death of at least 2 falcons). Again, keep in mind the HLC. All you need to do is have them in arc.

Look, I know you have your misgivings. I'm actually not trying to press or convince you of anything. Simply bringing up counterpoints. Hope it's not making you feel pressed or combative about all this (because really we all know it's just an exercise in theory and craft to hold us all over until we can get to our respective games again).

So I'm thinking about a defender centric list for my first tourney at a local game shop. I'm thinking something along the lines of these that I threw together:

http://xwing-builder.co.uk/view/108967/tourney-v1

http://xwing-builder.co.uk/view/108968/tourney-v2

http://xwing-builder.co.uk/view/108969/tourney-v3

http://xwing-builder.co.uk/view/108970/tournament-v4

Any advice? Or are these potentially good lists? I'm going to try them out of course.

I like your last one best, but I wouldn't bother putting VI on the TIE. Frankly if you want a PS 6 TIE you might as well just pay the one point more to get an ability too.

Also, on a side note (and this is more for the community as a whole and not specifically you) why do people feel the need to put both a Heavy Laser Cannon and an Engine Upgrade on Rexler? In my experience it's rare you want to boost with him. One of the main reasons to boost is for a range 1 shot, and you've already got the bonus die with the HLC. And also in my experience, boosting out of arcs isn't very easy with just the boost (as opposed to a boosting, barrel rolling PtL ship) unless you're in super close (which I try not to be because it's of no benefit).

So I'm thinking about a defender centric list for my first tourney at a local game shop. I'm thinking something along the lines of these that I threw together:

http://xwing-builder.co.uk/view/108967/tourney-v1

http://xwing-builder.co.uk/view/108968/tourney-v2

http://xwing-builder.co.uk/view/108969/tourney-v3

http://xwing-builder.co.uk/view/108970/tournament-v4

Any advice? Or are these potentially good lists? I'm going to try them out of course.

I like your last one best, but I wouldn't bother putting VI on the TIE. Frankly if you want a PS 6 TIE you might as well just pay the one point more to get an ability too.

Also, on a side note (and this is more for the community as a whole and not specifically you) why do people feel the need to put both a Heavy Laser Cannon and an Engine Upgrade on Rexler? In my experience it's rare you want to boost with him. One of the main reasons to boost is for a range 1 shot, and you've already got the bonus die with the HLC. And also in my experience, boosting out of arcs isn't very easy with just the boost (as opposed to a boosting, barrel rolling PtL ship) unless you're in super close (which I try not to be because it's of no benefit).

I've actually found that boosting after you do the 4 k-turn can be useful, especially if you plan on following it up with another k-turn, if you do it right you'll be able to loop around in a triangular area. Of course it would probably work better in an epic game.

Jaden, I don't totally agree with you on predictability. See, for many stressed ships the game you play is "what move will they take to clear stress". With the Defender the game becomes "is he going to try to clear stress or not?" As to the ship cost? I see your minimum 38 and raise you a 47. Because I looooove me some Rexler + Predator + HLC. Half my squad? Sure. Doesn't matter because he's a beast, and benefits from those large, sweeping maneuvers.

I've had a lot of games where I've taken white maneuvers when opponents expected green ones. But more than that, you might think that the defender is going to clear stress but it still has many distances that it can pick. It can move between 2-5 with a barrel roll after. That's not as easy to predict as you might think. And just because you might know it's coming, that doesn't mean you can actually do something about it. Depending on the circumstances, you might just not be physically capable of bringing your ship or ships around to deal with something like a green 5 straight.

That 5 straight also lends itself well from jumping from engagement to engagement in the midst of a battle, especially when separate shootouts are occurring in one game. It can really hurt to be on the receiving end of a Defender that 5-straighted out of one fight to lend fire support when you weren't expecting it (in my experience this has seen the death of at least 2 falcons). Again, keep in mind the HLC. All you need to do is have them in arc.

Look, I know you have your misgivings. I'm actually not trying to press or convince you of anything. Simply bringing up counterpoints. Hope it's not making you feel pressed or combative about all this (because really we all know it's just an exercise in theory and craft to hold us all over until we can get to our respective games again).

No I appreciate that actually because there's always more than one way to look at things that's kinda what I meant by the predictability aspect. Like you said other ships it's a matter of which move will he do to clear stress and when so there's 2 parts to it whereas with the defender you already know when he goes to clear it he's gonna be going straight so it takes 1 part away from the guessing game leaving only the when part.