I find it hard to spend the kind of points on the defender when firespray options just seem better. Id rather have Krasses one point less then Rex wielding a HLC and getting a free roll. I think they are a very cool ships. I just don't see it being competitive and showing up much in something like a store championship or higher. The elite pilot abilities seem alright but lacking. Yet to come across any builds that make them great. Would have been nice if they came with a boost maybe. Instead they move like a clunky bomber.

I've come up with 2 base defenders with HLC escorted by Jonus for the 2 rerolls. So far it hasn't done so great.

I understand the point, but, IMO, you lose out on opportunity cost when putting a HCL on a firespray, where one of its greatest assets is a rear firing arc. The defender, IMO, is a much better platform for it, especially thanks to it's white k-turn. I've actually had more success with a defender than I have with firesprays.

My biggest issue with the defender is that its predictability. With a red 2 and 1 turn there is a good chance you wont pick it. If your going head on with a ship the 4 K turn is expected the next turn. Then the cost of the ship. Its unlikely to be flying in a squad. So this point pig is most likely flying alone making him a nice juicy target for any squad. For the points I just think the firespray is a little less predictable and can take more hits. Still looking for a solid build that gels well. I've had thoughts of Rex with engine upgrade , push and auto blaster grouped up with a mini swarm. Ves with a phantom equipped with fire control sounds good too. Wish I could get Rex, Ves, and Jen to fit in a squad.

Take Jendon and wait till fleet officer is out.

Those red manuever will look a lot nicer

I've had thoughts of Rex with engine upgrade , push and auto blaster grouped up with a mini swarm.

If you are concerned about being predictable with a Defender, I would suggest against taking Push the Limit, I don't think the Defender is a good ship for this talent with his straight only greens.

Played tonight with rexler and he pretty much won the game for me on turn three, turn two was spent reducing the shields on a falcon, stripped of its shields I hit it with rexler scoring three hits which I then turned to crits which ended up including the one that removes evade dice, with no green dice to roll The mini swarm easily finished of the falcon and after that it was just mopping up the escorts.

I've had thoughts of Rex with engine upgrade , push and auto blaster grouped up with a mini swarm.

If you are concerned about being predictable with a Defender, I would suggest against taking Push the Limit, I don't think the Defender is a good ship for this talent with his straight only greens.

For me so far I prefer having the 3 turn as a white, yes it does take some more though to preplan your movement but you still have your barrel roll to make things allittle less predictable. Besides, IMO if your relying on hard turns that sharp your alittle too close to the action but then again I have found the Defender a good tank for drawing fire as well...

Posted. So. Many. Good. Defender. Builds. Already.

The only reason I would put push on Rex with EU and Auto blaster. Is because if you have to boost to get range one your going to want that focus. Otherwise I agree stressing it will just make it more predictable.

I've had thoughts of Rex with engine upgrade , push and auto blaster grouped up with a mini swarm.

If you are concerned about being predictable with a Defender, I would suggest against taking Push the Limit, I don't think the Defender is a good ship for this talent with his straight only greens.

For me so far I prefer having the 3 turn as a white, yes it does take some more though to preplan your movement but you still have your barrel roll to make things allittle less predictable. Besides, IMO if your relying on hard turns that sharp your alittle too close to the action but then again I have found the Defender a good tank for drawing fire as well...

??? I was not talking about turns, I was talking about Push the Limit on a Defender not being the best EPT choice. I personally have no problem with the Defender's dial, on the contrary, I love it for its strenght and weakness. It's a very fun ship to fly.

The only reason I would put push on Rex with EU and Auto blaster. Is because if you have to boost to get range one your going to want that focus. Otherwise I agree stressing it will just make it more predictable.

Cost too much for my taste for what it can bring to the table and the limitations it has: stressful EPT and limited range of cannon. I prefer paying 2 point less for Rex + Predator + HLC, or 9 point less for Rex + Predator.

I think it's clear that Wolf is suggesting the Autoblaster Engine Upgrade Rex as a for-fun thing rather than a competitive build.

and it does sound fun!

White-K in behind someone, boost, PtL, focus, Autoblaster attack, Flip the unpreventable hits into unpreventable crits.

Totally going to give it a whirl in a casual game.

Predictable doesn't mean much when you're PS 8 and have a barrel roll. Or when you establish range control with an HLC. Or when your opponent has been Ioned and can't do much about it. Or when you just fly it with some skill and aren't as predictable as the ship seems to be on paper. Funny, I hear so many people decry it for being predictable and easy to focus down, but for all that I've yet to have someone fly against me who was able to easily predict where I would be, or bring the full brunt of their squad to bare upon it...

Sorry Red Castle, I think it got lost in the lack of multi quote, someone reffered to haveing 1 and 2 hard turns being red manuevers as limiting and I apparently made the argument against it to the wrong quote.

New guy... its a nice crutch

I used Rexler with Predator in a tournament last night and he was amazing. Man of the match in all 3 matches. Next time I use him, I intend to throw a HLC on him. I found I would hang back at RB3 and pound away. His ability crippled Chewbaca one game, turning 3 hits into crits. Direct Hit on Chewie was so satisfying, as was the mewling from my opponent, "But Chewbaca doesnt get crit..."

Honestly, he is the best ship in Wave 4. The 4 white Kturn is just icing on the cake. In all 3 game he survived until the bitter end. He died on game, but the game was all but decided at that point. In all 3 games, I never once made a hard 1 or 2. Never needed to. And the 4 white kturn, while you might think its predictable, really isnt. This is in part by your ability to barrel roll at the end of it, and also, by your ability to casually throw the kturn when you are not 100% sure you will fit. I did this quite a lot last night.

Normally, when you Kturn its out of either a) desperation, or b) when you know you will fit and you have no better options, like say after a joust where you both were firing at each other at RB 1. With the White kturn I will throw that down when I am jousting and landed in RB3. If I cant fit, oh well, I crash, I am facing the same way I was before, and I dont have a stress. If I fit, well I got an action suckers and I am either on your 6 or facing you down again, and you have a stress. This is very powerful.

Predictable doesn't mean much when you're PS 8 and have a barrel roll. Or when you establish range control with an HLC. Or when your opponent has been Ioned and can't do much about it. Or when you just fly it with some skill and aren't as predictable as the ship seems to be on paper. Funny, I hear so many people decry it for being predictable and easy to focus down, but for all that I've yet to have someone fly against me who was able to easily predict where I would be, or bring the full brunt of their squad to bare upon it...

So your argument is because you fly it amazingly, it's not predictable?

His argument is it's predictable when you're just doing white K forward 2 white K forward 2 white K foreward over and over, that is to say, flying the Defender badly. That's true of any ship in the game.

The white K allows the Defender to do some very erratic moves to throw the opponent off balance and then whiteK them into arc. If you always take the obvious white K your opponent will block or evade you, but that's not the Defender's fault, that's yours.

The White K lets the Defender fly fast and never need to worry about stressful overshoots. And a fast ship is a hard one to pin down.

The K-turn is nice of course, but I'm finding the 1 bank to be the best feature of the Defender's dial.

-snip- Misread as 1-turn.

Predictable doesn't mean much when you're PS 8 and have a barrel roll. Or when you establish range control with an HLC. Or when your opponent has been Ioned and can't do much about it. Or when you just fly it with some skill and aren't as predictable as the ship seems to be on paper. Funny, I hear so many people decry it for being predictable and easy to focus down, but for all that I've yet to have someone fly against me who was able to easily predict where I would be, or bring the full brunt of their squad to bare upon it...

So your argument is because you fly it amazingly, it's not predictable?

This is a popular argument on these forums: "Fly better/suck less."

I will say that, in my limited experience, the Defender can be quite unpredictable, but that isn't always good. So, yeah...having every move in the game except a 1-forward on your dial means you can do some crazy things, especially since no one expects you to do the red turns since it's so hard for the Defender to clear stress (and NO ONE expects you to do another turn when you're already stressed).

But that doesn't make the Defender good. If you choose one of these "unpredictable" moves, it just makes you easier to predict a turn or two later, and/or costs you an action. In some cases that's obviously worth it (i.e., when your choice is between losing an action for a turn and being blown to kingdom come), but I would say relatively rarely.

The 1 bank is awesome on a ship that can barrel roll.

Predictable doesn't mean much when you're PS 8 and have a barrel roll. Or when you establish range control with an HLC. Or when your opponent has been Ioned and can't do much about it. Or when you just fly it with some skill and aren't as predictable as the ship seems to be on paper. Funny, I hear so many people decry it for being predictable and easy to focus down, but for all that I've yet to have someone fly against me who was able to easily predict where I would be, or bring the full brunt of their squad to bare upon it...

So your argument is because you fly it amazingly, it's not predictable?

This is a popular argument on these forums: "Fly better/suck less."

I will say that, in my limited experience, the Defender can be quite unpredictable, but that isn't always good. So, yeah...having every move in the game except a 1-forward on your dial means you can do some crazy things, especially since no one expects you to do the red turns since it's so hard for the Defender to clear stress (and NO ONE expects you to do another turn when you're already stressed).

But that doesn't make the Defender good. If you choose one of these "unpredictable" moves, it just makes you easier to predict a turn or two later, and/or costs you an action. In some cases that's obviously worth it (i.e., when your choice is between losing an action for a turn and being blown to kingdom come), but I would say relatively rarely.

I agree, it's a decent ship but far from being vindicated. If your looking to fly something diff that's cool or add into some epic play fine but I doubt we will be seeing it much in tourneys. Main reason is you can fly 2 ties for the price of one defender and have points left over to upgrade. The white k turn just doesn't add all that much as well as the dial not being very good either. I loved the defender and it's been my favorite ship since I first flew it in alliance so I'll still use it but still not sure I'll be taking it to tourneys. Maybe I'm just points greedy tho.

Ok… something that's been bugging me but sitting on the edge of iteration just came to light, but first, an analogy must be made.

Anyone who plays video games and pays attention to video game reviews knows that video games get reviewed oddly. The consumers of such media tend to view even a hefty score such as a 7.5 or 8 as borderline unplayable. Anything less than a 9 or 10 is almost shunned.

I feel the same parable can be drawn for the Defender. It gets decried as having a terrible or underwhelming dial, but really… just how good do you need the dial to be? I mean yes, it is stressful to perform moves that some other imperial ships can do with ease. But does that make it bad? It has every maneuver in the game. No one complains about the dial on say an X-wing, but there's things it can't do. It can't go 5 straight, has only one k-turn, and can't make a 1 hard. But it's serviceable as all getout. The B-Wing and Y-wing have some of the most pathetic little flowers in the game, and half of the B-Wing's dial is red. But it's arguably one of the most dangerous knife fighters in X-Wing. But the Defender's mix of slow banks and fast straights give it some of the best range control in this game.

Anyone who has paid attention to some of my posts over the past few months knows I espouse a certain play style. Namely that I am a fan of engaging an opponent for a few turns, and then burning hard if it's not going well. In this respect, If I'm setting up for a very hit/miss turn, the tight turns followed by straight shots a turn later to get away have been very useful. Most people who fly TIEs are used to getting into and staying in those close quarters where repeatedly turning tight is an advantage because most adversaries can't keep up with it.

So Winner, to answer your question, no. it's not just because "i fly it" amazingly. But, I will say this: if you fly it with the mentality of a TIE fighter then yes. You will not do well. You'll find yourself in positions where you need to take stress to turn like you normally might again and again. But that's just it: it's an Imperial ship, a non-large base ship, but it's not a TIE Fighter. If you do keep thinking from that angle then yes. That dial is going to seem untenable. It's not a turn fighter, and really can't effectively be flown as one. I once heard someone compare the Defender to a modern fighter jet, and I can't help but feel that is an apt description. Can it turn like a Spitfire? No. Can it lock onto something from a mile off, blow it out of the sky, then blaze through where that plane was 30 seconds ago at mach 2? Yes. Yes it can.

I think That one guy sums it up well. If anything the defender flys more like a rebel craft than the normal imperial ties and intercepters. And you can do soo much with a 1 bank and barrel roll that your academy pilot cant.

EDIT: it also seems that imperial tactics always follow similar guidelines were you take some puds, take some high PS pilots and use modifications, elite pilot talents, missiles etc to improve your craft. And the Defender does not fall into those shoes. It has 3 Attack, Agility, Hull and Shields. How many small based fighters have that? E wings are similar in price but lose 1 Agility for astromech and other add ons.

They lose hull, not agility. 3 shields, 3 agility, 2 hull.

Seeing a few E-wings out there in tournament-land.

They get a few toys that the TIE-D does not, but the reverse is true as well.

I think we can dispense with the notion that the Defender is not capable of competitive success.