My first couple games with the Defender were pretty disastrous. After experimenting with it though, I found that it is indeed a great ship.

It plays the long-range sniper game fantastically. Sitting at range 2-3 with an HLC it can do very consistent damage and is very hard to kill. Its dial helps it easily escape if it gets in trouble and can easily set itself up for another pass. A lot of people are saying that it's a "predictable" ship, but it's only predictable if you fly it predictably. It can do every maneuver in the game but a straight 1. In all the games I've played with it, I've only had to take a red maneuver twice. Even if you are stressed, you still have a ton of white maneuvers you can do, including a K-turn.

Out of the pilots, I don't like the Onyx. For 32 points you're not gaining enough over the Delta. The Delta is a great ship though. Even with it's low PS, it doesn't mind taking hits 'cause it can tank a lot. It's chances of getting blocked are also pretty nonexistant. Slap an HLC on it and it can really ruin someone's day.

Out of the named pilots, I'm not a fan of Brath. When his ability goes off he can win you the game (If you've ever slapped 4 crits on a falcon in one shot you know what I'm talking about), but you're paying a lot of points for something that's not reliable at all. Vessery on the other hand is a monster. With an HLC you're rolling 3/4 hits every shot. Combining him with Outmaneuver makes him even better. He chews through B-Wings and Falcons incredibly fast. Also Vessery won't care about being stressed, or barrel-rolling or boosting (if you have an engine upgrade). He'll get a target lock no matter what if you're managing them well.

I admit that the use of a Defender is not obvious at all just by looking at them, but if you give yourself some time to experiment with one, it is an incredibly effective ship.

The problem I have with Ves is that he requires the assistance of other ships to make him work and is just PS 6. As others have pointed out, that can be tough/costly/suboptimal to do in an imperial list.

A pair of ties with targeting computers is needed for Ves really, i've done it before and he can deal out some pain with the right support.

A pair of ties with targeting computers is needed for Ves really, i've done it before and he can deal out some pain with the right support.

a pair of buzzsaw shuttles will do the job as well.

Yeah, it's not so much luck as mitigation. I mean come on, two of my three guys had Predator, and the other was Vader. It's just how the squad was planned, very aggressive. Though I think only a small handful of the ships I faced (2 ships out of all my games) were PS 2 or lower, so it wasn't often that I got the double reroll. But it's nice to be able to hold back for defense.

Anyway, drawing my opponents through the asteroids repeatedly worked great. But doing so required me to eyeball and plan my moves about 2-3 turns out. So while I was planning my approach vector, i was already thinking two more turns ahead to that k-turn which was truly devastating. On two occasions though I made drastically different turns and caught my opponent off guard, since they expected k-spamming and not the 3 hard that I did to hook around Biggs and fire at a Bandit (which was nearly killed in one shot because of it).

I think the key to flying the defender is knowing when to k-turn and when to do something different. Most players aren't going to expect a 1 or 2 turn and that could be a nasty surprise sometimes

Out of the named pilots, I'm not a fan of Brath. When his ability goes off he can win you the game (If you've ever slapped 4 crits on a falcon in one shot you know what I'm talking about), but you're paying a lot of points for something that's not reliable at all.

Major noted the other day that Brath's ability doesn't cost you anything. If you just look at the PS and cost, it makes sense; you're essentially just paying to have a PS8 pilot and nothing extra.

PS1: 30

PS3: 32

PS6: 35

PS8: 37

My first couple games with the Defender were pretty disastrous. After experimenting with it though, I found that it is indeed a great ship.

It plays the long-range sniper game fantastically. Sitting at range 2-3 with an HLC it can do very consistent damage and is very hard to kill. Its dial helps it easily escape if it gets in trouble and can easily set itself up for another pass. A lot of people are saying that it's a "predictable" ship, but it's only predictable if you fly it predictably. It can do every maneuver in the game but a straight 1. In all the games I've played with it, I've only had to take a red maneuver twice. Even if you are stressed, you still have a ton of white maneuvers you can do, including a K-turn.

Out of the pilots, I don't like the Onyx. For 32 points you're not gaining enough over the Delta. The Delta is a great ship though. Even with it's low PS, it doesn't mind taking hits 'cause it can tank a lot. It's chances of getting blocked are also pretty nonexistant. Slap an HLC on it and it can really ruin someone's day.

Out of the named pilots, I'm not a fan of Brath. When his ability goes off he can win you the game (If you've ever slapped 4 crits on a falcon in one shot you know what I'm talking about), but you're paying a lot of points for something that's not reliable at all. Vessery on the other hand is a monster. With an HLC you're rolling 3/4 hits every shot. Combining him with Outmaneuver makes him even better. He chews through B-Wings and Falcons incredibly fast. Also Vessery won't care about being stressed, or barrel-rolling or boosting (if you have an engine upgrade). He'll get a target lock no matter what if you're managing them well.

I admit that the use of a Defender is not obvious at all just by looking at them, but if you give yourself some time to experiment with one, it is an incredibly effective ship.

The problem I have with Ves is that he requires the assistance of other ships to make him work and is just PS 6. As others have pointed out, that can be tough/costly/suboptimal to do in an imperial list.

I think a mistake that a lot of people make when trying to run Vessery is putting a TL on ALL of your ships. You really only need one or two. By the time your TL ships ends up dead, your opponent should be so far behind that it doesn't really matter if Vessery can use his ability or not.

Also, Vessery being PS 6 isn't a big deal. It's high enough to kill no-names before they can shoot. Also, if you are staying at range 3 with an HLC, it's pretty much impossible to arc-dodge him.

Major noted the other day that Brath's ability doesn't cost you anything. If you just look at the PS and cost, it makes sense; you're essentially just paying to have a PS8 pilot and nothing extra.

PS1: 30

PS3: 32

PS6: 35

PS8: 37

Yeah, but a Defender doesn't need PS8 anyway. It doesn't do much for him. A Defender isn't an arc-dodger and it's tough enough to survive the hits from ships that fire first. A Delta w/ HLC costs the same as a naked Brath. The game charges too much for PS in my opinion.

I think Defender PS still matters. Maybe you're not trying to dodge arcs, but you want to hide your movement from those that are trying to dodge arcs, and high PS helps in that effort. I think for low cost ships, 1 point for PS is maybe a bit overpriced. With high cost, high capability ships, though, that 1 point per PS seems reasonable to me.

A pair of ties with targeting computers is needed for Ves really, i've done it before and he can deal out some pain with the right support.

a pair of buzzsaw shuttles will do the job as well.

These exactly highlight the issue, though. Add a pair of buzzsaw shuttles and your list is done. While a couple of TIE fighters with TC is the most efficient way to go, it adds inefficient points to the list. I don't think anyone would argue that TCs were good choices for TIEs (with it popping up on Backstabber once in awhile) before Ves, so you're adding four points to his cost (and now he's more than Rexlar). I'm not saying it can't work or open up other options, but, IMO, I don't see where he is as good as Brath, and I certainly wouldn't identify him as a much better choice. He might work best when paired with a mini bomber swarm, but -- at least to me -- having to build around him in these manners make him a more limiting ship.

With Brath, you are paying for pilot skill. With Vessery you are paying for consistent dice. Both pilots have their uses.

Also note that targeting computers aren't exactly dead points... you get to use those TIE Fighter target locks.

With Brath, you are paying for pilot skill. With Vessery you are paying for consistent dice. Both pilots have their uses.

Also note that targeting computers aren't exactly dead points... you get to use those TIE Fighter target locks.

Sure, but they weren't a big draw before Vessery, right? They clearly weren't needed and certainly weren't optimal (the TIE has an excellent choice of actions for the points and purpose already), so you're really adding points to make Vessery useful. I'm not saying he's bad, he's just not as cheap and efficient as some are making him out to be.

With Brath, you are paying for pilot skill. With Vessery you are paying for consistent dice. Both pilots have their uses.

Also note that targeting computers aren't exactly dead points... you get to use those TIE Fighter target locks.

Sure, but they weren't a big draw before Vessery, right? They clearly weren't needed and certainly weren't optimal (the TIE has an excellent choice of actions for the points and purpose already), so you're really adding points to make Vessery useful. I'm not saying he's bad, he's just not as cheap and efficient as some are making him out to be.

Yes, you do have to invest more points to get Vessery's ability to work. I prefer to use the shuttle, personally. But, you get a ship that's way, way, way more reliable than Brath in both damage and defense. When Brath's ability goes off...it's amazing. You can win a game with some good luck. But Vessery will easily roll 3-4 hits on every shot AND most likely still have his focus for defense.

Not to mention that Brath needs either predator or PTL to really make use of his ability. Vessery can use Outmaneuver which makes him even deadlier.

Brath will be a lot better once Fleet Officer is out, but then you're back to the problem of needing another ship to help him out.

Again, IF Brath's ability goes off it's a game-changer. But Vessery is just far more consistent.

With Brath, you are paying for pilot skill. With Vessery you are paying for consistent dice. Both pilots have their uses.

Also note that targeting computers aren't exactly dead points... you get to use those TIE Fighter target locks.

Sure, but they weren't a big draw before Vessery, right? They clearly weren't needed and certainly weren't optimal (the TIE has an excellent choice of actions for the points and purpose already), so you're really adding points to make Vessery useful. I'm not saying he's bad, he's just not as cheap and efficient as some are making him out to be.

Sadly, cheap is not part of the Defender vocabulary.

I think that the most effective way to use Vessery is with a ST-321 Shuttle with Weapon Engineer: TL 2 enemy first round then don't bother again. That still leaves 38 pts to complete the team with other ships and upgrades.

Vessery + HLC + VI

Shuttle + ST-321 + WE

Backstabber

Black Squadron Pilot

Don't agree with that, personally. 6 points and 2 slots is too much cardboard on the shuttle just to keep Vessery happy.

ST-321 or Weapons Engineer - not both.

I feel like Weapons Engineer + FCS hits a sweet-spot for the Vessery + shuttle setup. It still feels a bit... forced, but FCS has good shuttle mojo by itself anyway.

Don't agree with that, personally. 6 points and 2 slots is too much cardboard on the shuttle just to keep Vessery happy.

ST-321 or Weapons Engineer - not both.

I feel like Weapons Engineer + FCS hits a sweet-spot for the Vessery + shuttle setup. It still feels a bit... forced, but FCS has good shuttle mojo by itself anyway.

So 6 pts and 2 upgrade is too much but 5 pts and 2 upgrade is not? To each their own.

I think that the most effective way to use Vessery is with a ST-321 Shuttle with Weapon Engineer: TL 2 enemy first round then don't bother again. That still leaves 38 pts to complete the team with other ships and upgrades.

Vessery + HLC + VI

Shuttle + ST-321 + WE

Backstabber

Black Squadron Pilot

I'm a big fan of ST-321 & WE, myself.

WE gives Vessery more options and lets the Shuttle get a target for itself AND one for Vessery. It also keeps your opponent guessing.

ST-321 can lock targets that Vessery can shoot, but the shuttle isn't in range for.

My current build is:

Vessery w/ HLC & Outmaneuver

Shuttle w/ ST-321, Weapons Engineer & Sensor Jammer

Academy Pilot (x2)

Vessery is set up as a flanker. If my opponent goes after Vessery, he gets chased by two TIEs and a Shuttle. If they go after the shuttle, the Sensor Jammer helps keep it alive for a long time while Vessery shoots them from behind. The TIEs are used for blocking, protecting the shuttle and just general mayhem. Whenever I've played this list, my opponents either go after the shuttle or Vessery leaving the TIEs ample opportunities for unmolested range 1 shots.

Don't agree with that, personally. 6 points and 2 slots is too much cardboard on the shuttle just to keep Vessery happy.

ST-321 or Weapons Engineer - not both.

I feel like Weapons Engineer + FCS hits a sweet-spot for the Vessery + shuttle setup. It still feels a bit... forced, but FCS has good shuttle mojo by itself anyway.

So 6 pts and 2 upgrade is too much but 5 pts and 2 upgrade is not? To each their own.

The difference is that ST-321 does basically nothing for the shuttle. If you take it, you really are spending those 3 points on nothing but Vessery. FCS does good things for the Lambda's action economy and damage output while also benefiting Vessery.

I could see a Jendon + ST-321 list. Pass out target locks to some TIEs during the early turns.

Here's my stupid Vessery idea.

Vessery 35, Outmaneuver 3, HLC = 45

Tempest Squadron Pilot 21, Proton Rockets 3 = 24

Backstabber 16

Winged Gundark 15

The Tempest is inherently overpriced, but buffing Vessery and carrying Proton Rockets means it's not as bad as normal, and there's a real reason to shoot at him, which is sort of hilarious in it's own right. Backstabber and Winged Gundark mop up.

Don't agree with that, personally. 6 points and 2 slots is too much cardboard on the shuttle just to keep Vessery happy.

ST-321 or Weapons Engineer - not both.

I feel like Weapons Engineer + FCS hits a sweet-spot for the Vessery + shuttle setup. It still feels a bit... forced, but FCS has good shuttle mojo by itself anyway.

So 6 pts and 2 upgrade is too much but 5 pts and 2 upgrade is not? To each their own.

The difference is that ST-321 does basically nothing for the shuttle. If you take it, you really are spending those 3 points on nothing but Vessery. FCS does good things for the Lambda's action economy and damage output while also benefiting Vessery.

I could see a Jendon + ST-321 list. Pass out target locks to some TIEs during the early turns.

That's where your milage may vary. I personally prefer ST-321 over FCS on the Shuttle for those reasons.

First, it allows you to take your time with the Shuttle regarding your approach, since you are not limited by range. You target lock first turn and then are free to either make a stop maneuver when combat is starting or just barely move straight. You want the first shot fired at range 3 with the Shuttle, getting into range 3 at PS 2 to get a TL will probably make your first shot at range 2, since the opponent will move after that. Also, being able to TL before the first round of combat will allow you to have a TL+F shot with your Shuttle. That is not something to sneeze at. Since I want to flank with Vessery, there is also a possibilty that my target will be out of range from the Shuttle when the combat start, so I won't be able to TL it. The title avoid that problem. Granted, once the fight start, FCS is useful, but on a Shuttle that is so easy to outmaneuver, especially without Engine Upgrade, I don't personally find it useful.

But as I said, to each their own.

I'm not really a big fan of Vessery, but if I had to use him in a list, here is what I would take:

Defender : Vessery

Lambda : OGP - Darth Vader

Bomber : Seismic Charge, Ion Pulse Missile

Fighter : Night Beast - Targeting Computer

This is a pretty disparate looking list, but it should work pretty well.

OGP is very efficient, and running him into the ground to deal automatic damage is definitely worthwhile.

With free focus actions, Night beast will be able to spare actions to target lock for Vessery.

And finally, the bomber provides some Ion control, and a Proton Bomb. With the addition of the E-Wing the rebellion now had three ships with only 2 Hull (E, A, Z) which means that they can be one-shot by a proton bomb fairly easily. Won't happen every game, but it will be hilarious when it does, and an automatic crit is good in any situation.

Ya I agree your hp is ridiculously low! Sounds like you had some serious luck on your side and some poor flying by opponents. I don't think I would ever consider taking a 14 hp build to anything regardless of the damage output or confidence in my piloting skills. Kudos to you for taking that and winning tho.

"See Regional results where D4rkt3mpl4r won a 30+ person Regional with 17 HP"

HP only matters when you're getting shot at. Having more ships and more HP means you are getting shot at more, since it is much more difficult to have all your ships avoid being in arc. If you have less ships, you can more easily avoid arcs, meaning you NEED less HP in order to pull out the victory.

Just my 2 Cents.

Ya I agree your hp is ridiculously low! Sounds like you had some serious luck on your side and some poor flying by opponents. I don't think I would ever consider taking a 14 hp build to anything regardless of the damage output or confidence in my piloting skills. Kudos to you for taking that and winning tho.

"See Regional results where D4rkt3mpl4r won a 30+ person Regional with 17 HP"

This is a little disingenuous...if I have the right list, it looks like D4rkt3mpl4r ran Yorr, Fel, and Whisper, which a) not only has 3 more HP (17, as you said), but also has a ship with advanced cloaking at PS 10 (effectively giving it 4 agility base at all times), plus b) has arguably the best arc-dodger in the game in Fel; and c) has 10 attack dice, or two more than OP's list, plus a gunner and FCS on Whisper, giving it a lot more firepower.

Which is not to say that a 14 HP build can't win ever, just that one list (which - in my opinion, anyway - is dramatically different and demonstrably more survivable than OP's) isn't very good evidence that it can.

I'd probably have picked a souped up Soontir Fel myself, as Fel always feels good to play.

However, Darth Vader and the Tie Advanced has many perks.

For example:

1. Not stressing for Double Actions

2. The 1 Bank

3. Built in TL + F (Fel becomes less defensive than Vader if he takes Target Comp)

4. Outmanuever lets you tell C3P0 and his buddies in the Falcon where to put it (can't use C3PO if you roll 0 dice)

5. Vader is the same or better defense for 1 less pt (Fel + PTL + Shield + Hull = 37, Vader + Engine + Outmanuver = 36)

Of course, Fel has plenty of perks as well, that I don't need to tell you.

Overall, I'd say this build might be slightly better vs B Wing and Falcon squads. However, Fel will do more damage to 3+ Agility ships like Phantoms, Ties, Interceptors. I suppose THAT is where HLC Brath comes into play, after all.

Ya I agree your hp is ridiculously low! Sounds like you had some serious luck on your side and some poor flying by opponents. I don't think I would ever consider taking a 14 hp build to anything regardless of the damage output or confidence in my piloting skills. Kudos to you for taking that and winning tho.

"See Regional results where D4rkt3mpl4r won a 30+ person Regional with 17 HP"

This is a little disingenuous...if I have the right list, it looks like D4rkt3mpl4r ran Yorr, Fel, and Whisper, which a) not only has 3 more HP (17, as you said), but also has a ship with advanced cloaking at PS 10 (effectively giving it 4 agility base at all times), plus b) has arguably the best arc-dodger in the game in Fel; and c) has 10 attack dice, or two more than OP's list, plus a gunner and FCS on Whisper, giving it a lot more firepower.

Which is not to say that a 14 HP build can't win ever, just that one list (which - in my opinion, anyway - is dramatically different and demonstrably more survivable than OP's) isn't very good evidence that it can.

There are and have been regional winning lists that included 15 or fewer HPas well as a slew of them that were good enough to make the top 16/8, etc...so there is plenty of evidence that they, in fact, can.

Ya I agree your hp is ridiculously low! Sounds like you had some serious luck on your side and some poor flying by opponents. I don't think I would ever consider taking a 14 hp build to anything regardless of the damage output or confidence in my piloting skills. Kudos to you for taking that and winning tho.

"See Regional results where D4rkt3mpl4r won a 30+ person Regional with 17 HP"

This is a little disingenuous...if I have the right list, it looks like D4rkt3mpl4r ran Yorr, Fel, and Whisper, which a) not only has 3 more HP (17, as you said), but also has a ship with advanced cloaking at PS 10 (effectively giving it 4 agility base at all times), plus b) has arguably the best arc-dodger in the game in Fel; and c) has 10 attack dice, or two more than OP's list, plus a gunner and FCS on Whisper, giving it a lot more firepower.

Which is not to say that a 14 HP build can't win ever, just that one list (which - in my opinion, anyway - is dramatically different and demonstrably more survivable than OP's) isn't very good evidence that it can.

There are and have been regional winning lists that included 15 or fewer HPas well as a slew of them that were good enough to make the top 16/8, etc...so there is plenty of evidence that they, in fact, can.

Oh, I don't doubt that. I just am questioning the validity of this particular example. There seem to be plenty of viable builds under 17 or so HP...but I would wager that most have more than 8 attack dice (the build referenced has 10, with gunner and a fire control system; basically all three ship Rebel builds will have at least 9).

I don't think most people would argue that Vader and Brath, the cornerstones of this list, are good pilots - the problem is they cost so much to make effective that you end up with a 14 HP, 8 attack list, with only one ship that can really arc dodge reliably.

I like giving Vessery a missile sometimes, to capitalize off his free lock. Eventually you end up getting the free lock but not needing it, and then hey look, you've got missiles for next round. Usually something cheap like Ion Pulse.

As for maneuvering Defenders and k-turns, I've found that sometimes you get into a good dogfight and even if it's predictable, the second time in a row you k-tirn your adversaries just plain old aren't in a position where they can do anything about it, even if they do see it coming. They either have no angle on where you'll end up or they can get one but at the expense of k-turning themselves and losing actions.