I told you it was not to insult your friends or you and said I apologized if that's how it came out.

Dude, haven't you learned by now you can't have an opinion on these forums (let alone state your opinion) or else people get all kinds of buttmad?

Ya I know seriously. I was like geeze take it easy. It's all good tho some people get wound up over anything you say even a "good job". I just let it roll off, it's a game.

I do like playing defenders in local events. Going to play E-wing this weekend. They are both fun, and a nice change of pace from the 4 ships that you see over and over again at the regional scene.

Nice build idea. I fancy trying

Brath with HLC, Predator and Shield (51)

2 x Tempest with Proton Rockets.

Yes you have to proxy the Rockets but not for long and I love them on Tempests, tough little ship that has a great chance to get off its rocket that might just one shot an Xwing. Such a tooled up Brath isnt perhaps the most competitive use of points but with a little luck it could do a lot of damage, his potency combined with the rockets can make your opponent second guess his approach.

**** son.

I knew the Defender wasn't bad!

Trust me, my opposition was anything but poor. And it's kind of insulting to them for you to say that. And to me, for attributing my wins to poor opponents and luck.

Luckily for me, showcasing such blatant rudeness and ignorance means I don't have to put a single bit of stock in your opinion.

Was not trying to be insulting I'm sorry. Just from your brief description it sounded like you had some luck going on and by poor flying I was attributing that to your phantom opponent because a phantom should be avoiding arcs like crazy. To be fair you did say you had an incredibly lucky shot on a phantom. So again was not trying to say you didn't fly well at all. If anything at the bottom of my post I said "I wouldn't take that list so kudos to you for winning with it". Sure it "doesn't fit a mold" that's what makes it crazy is that you took something like that and won, hence "kudos for winning".

Ok, gotcha. The specific lucky turn I mentioned was the Phantom rolling 1 blank and 6 focuses (without token). The Phantom's error was that it misjudge a turn slightly and very narrowly missed having Rexler in-arc, so didn't get to fire. This was Whisper, so not having the shot meant no easy recloak and focus. He had to use his action to cloak, so had no tokens. Rexler got 4 hits and two were cancelled, but the BSP's shot was truly amazing, because Whisper only needed 1 out of 6 dice to save himself.

I actually did notice his apology and clarification, but had been going down the line responding to things so didn't see it until after.

As to being "buttmad", it was the perceived opinion towards the other players that got to me, not anything about my own skill.

Anyway, I get that it was just suboptimal wording on Jaden's part. We're done with this.

I told you it was not to insult your friends or you and said I apologized if that's how it came out.

Dude, haven't you learned by now you can't have an opinion on these forums (let alone state your opinion) or else people get all kinds of buttmad?

That's the internet for ya

People should just leave their feelings at home when they decide to post, or if they are that sensitive maybe avoid the internet altogether.

Buddy made a comment. The OP for offended, and buddy apologized

After which the OP from what I can tell ignored his apology.

Well back in subject.

It's nice to see vader in a top spot for once, but I really do find it amazing that this list was able to pull through when there are so few attack dice and hp. VS other ships that had it out gunned and hp.

I don't know as I wasn't there but I would assume the other players made some huge mistake or the dice were terribly not in their favor.

I'm not trying to criticize and take the joy of a win away. No matter what its always a nice feeling to come out on top.

But I'm still skeptical that this kind of list would do well against other players in a different venue.

You have three ships and two of those is only rolling two attack dice.

That to me just doesn't seem viable enough to withstand so many builds.

In this case you really need to rely on maneuvers to try to get behind or out of firing arcs.

The defender is the biggest hitter and worth the most points.

Turns like a truck

I would focus fire everything I have onto it and worry about the small ships later.

At two attack dice they are much less of a threat and just as hard to hit.

The few games I've played against a defender I've not seen it win, or really do anything useful.

I found it rather predictable, and imo I still prefer the Firespray over the defender

Well, those two attack dice go a long way. For one, the BST can focus on defense with it's focus or evade token. It delivers more consistent damage over time than almost any other TIE. That damage may not be much, but it's good. The standard Euchre mentality of "you can always count on your partner for a trick" type thing.

As for Vader, keep in mind he can both TL and focus. He's a natural at arc dodging, getting into range 1 or both. So sure his native 2 attack dice may seem little, but they can turn into 3 attack dice with a focus and 1 less agility in the blink of an eye. Repeatedly.

As for HP, all three ships have 3 agility, and all three ships can use their actions to focus on being defensive. Plus there's a PS 8 and a PS 9 in there, and the PS 9 is pretty much the arc-dodging king with Engine Upgrade. So sure, having few HP can matter, but not if you're barely taking any shots in the first place.

All that being said, there were a few list types I didn't get to face at all and I'd have liked to see how I did against them: no Falcon list, no Defender list, and no real Rebel Swarm (which I imagine the two Predators would have done very well against). But, there's always next month!

(Gamer's Sanctuary, Flint MI, last saturday of every month. Be there!)

I told you it was not to insult your friends or you and said I apologized if that's how it came out.

Dude, haven't you learned by now you can't have an opinion on these forums (let alone state your opinion) or else people get all kinds of buttmad?

That's the internet for ya

People should just leave their feelings at home when they decide to post, or if they are that sensitive maybe avoid the internet altogether.

Buddy made a comment. The OP for offended, and buddy apologized

After which the OP from what I can tell ignored his apology.

Well back in subject.

It's nice to see vader in a top spot for once, but I really do find it amazing that this list was able to pull through when there are so few attack dice and hp. VS other ships that had it out gunned and hp.

I don't know as I wasn't there but I would assume the other players made some huge mistake or the dice were terribly not in their favor.

I'm not trying to criticize and take the joy of a win away. No matter what its always a nice feeling to come out on top.

But I'm still skeptical that this kind of list would do well against other players in a different venue.

You have three ships and two of those is only rolling two attack dice.

That to me just doesn't seem viable enough to withstand so many builds.

In this case you really need to rely on maneuvers to try to get behind or out of firing arcs.

The defender is the biggest hitter and worth the most points.

Turns like a truck

I would focus fire everything I have onto it and worry about the small ships later.

At two attack dice they are much less of a threat and just as hard to hit.

The few games I've played against a defender I've not seen it win, or really do anything useful.

I found it rather predictable, and imo I still prefer the Firespray over the defender

That was my thought process as well. Same as you I would of focus fired the defender and worried about the other ships after. Don't know why the opponents didn't do that but again wasn't there so can't really say. I too am skeptical about this build tho.

Oh, they tried to. I just made sure that those engagements were suboptimal for them. This was accomplished in various ways. Split-engagement, range control and asteroids were the most common. In game two, my opponent tried very hard to focus down the Defender. He a) wasn't able to, even with 4 ships, and b) paid heavily for ignoring Vader (by essentially losing Dutch and Janson to Outmaneuvered, focused, target locked shots).

Won two games with a Defender today.

Does not feel overcosted in the slightest, for whatever that's worth.

Delta gets the job done and Vessery is an absolute monster.

Really liked the Ion Cannon on the Delta. Does great things for the ship.

I told you it was not to insult your friends or you and said I apologized if that's how it came out.

Dude, haven't you learned by now you can't have an opinion on these forums (let alone state your opinion) or else people get all kinds of buttmad?

That's the internet for ya

People should just leave their feelings at home when they decide to post, or if they are that sensitive maybe avoid the internet altogether.

Buddy made a comment. The OP for offended, and buddy apologized

After which the OP from what I can tell ignored his apology.

Well back in subject.

It's nice to see vader in a top spot for once, but I really do find it amazing that this list was able to pull through when there are so few attack dice and hp. VS other ships that had it out gunned and hp.

I don't know as I wasn't there but I would assume the other players made some huge mistake or the dice were terribly not in their favor.

I'm not trying to criticize and take the joy of a win away. No matter what its always a nice feeling to come out on top.

But I'm still skeptical that this kind of list would do well against other players in a different venue.

You have three ships and two of those is only rolling two attack dice.

That to me just doesn't seem viable enough to withstand so many builds.

In this case you really need to rely on maneuvers to try to get behind or out of firing arcs.

The defender is the biggest hitter and worth the most points.

Turns like a truck

I would focus fire everything I have onto it and worry about the small ships later.

At two attack dice they are much less of a threat and just as hard to hit.

The few games I've played against a defender I've not seen it win, or really do anything useful.

I found it rather predictable, and imo I still prefer the Firespray over the defender

Well, those two attack dice go a long way. For one, the BST can focus on defense with it's focus or evade token. It delivers more consistent damage over time than almost any other TIE. That damage may not be much, but it's good. The standard Euchre mentality of "you can always count on your partner for a trick" type thing.

As for Vader, keep in mind he can both TL and focus. He's a natural at arc dodging, getting into range 1 or both. So sure his native 2 attack dice may seem little, but they can turn into 3 attack dice with a focus and 1 less agility in the blink of an eye. Repeatedly.

As for HP, all three ships have 3 agility, and all three ships can use their actions to focus on being defensive. Plus there's a PS 8 and a PS 9 in there, and the PS 9 is pretty much the arc-dodging king with Engine Upgrade. So sure, having few HP can matter, but not if you're barely taking any shots in the first place.

All that being said, there were a few list types I didn't get to face at all and I'd have liked to see how I did against them: no Falcon list, no Defender list, and no real Rebel Swarm (which I imagine the two Predators would have done very well against). But, there's always next month!

(Gamer's Sanctuary, Flint MI, last saturday of every month. Be there!)

One bad roll even with a focus cn be the end. More times than not I've seen them come up blanks.

Just the other night I had a squint and tie roll 3 dice each with a focus and rolled 6 blanks.

I'm just saying that even though you did well that is not a build I would put money on. It's good you won with it, but vader for the points I think is money better spent else where.

As for the tie, he's still just as squishy, and the defender of focus fired should die quickly.

Especially since he has the same amount of evade.

He's the biggest threat on the board, and worth the most points.

In a three ship build like any, one big weakness is its a three ship build.

Congrats on your win btw. No matter what its always nice

Considering you can take two Predator Black Squadron for about the same price as Vader+EU...

He is indeed feeling pretty obsolete.

I guess you have to fly him to know that he is far from obsolete. He is very slippery, with the ability to go heavy on the offensive or defensive. I understand it is popular to hate on the Advanced, but Vader is far from bad. Especially with the Engine Upgrade.

Vader is actually very good with the engine upgrade.

(just not worth the bloody points)

We're getting off topic.

TIE-D is solid.

Low PS versions get real utility out of the Ion Cannon.

Feels reasonably costed.

Will be obscenely dangerous with remote support from Fleet Officer and/or Comms Booster if/when Imperial Huge Ships become a thing.

I told you it was not to insult your friends or you and said I apologized if that's how it came out.

Dude, haven't you learned by now you can't have an opinion on these forums (let alone state your opinion) or else people get all kinds of buttmad?

It's important to note that whenever someone starts a statement with 'No offense...' whatever follows is going to be offensive in some way.

I told you it was not to insult your friends or you and said I apologized if that's how it came out.

Dude, haven't you learned by now you can't have an opinion on these forums (let alone state your opinion) or else people get all kinds of buttmad?

It's important to note that whenever someone starts a statement with 'No offense...' whatever follows is going to be offensive in some way.

I said no offense therefore your not allowed to take offense

I guess you have to fly him to know that he is far from obsolete. He is very slippery, with the ability to go heavy on the offensive or defensive. I understand it is popular to hate on the Advanced, but Vader is far from bad. Especially with the Engine Upgrade.

However for the cost the is just better option out there. Fel with PTL for example can move just as good or better. Hard to hit, and hits s lot harder

Royal guard pilot Again way cheaper. Give them PTL and away you go.

Omnicron pilot with engine upgrade and Rebel captive or vader

Leaving you with more points to put into shipd or upgrades.

I rely wanted to like vader.

He has an awesome ability,and maybe when the game was new he had more of a purpose, but as it is now, for the cost and what you get vs what's out there, there is much better way to spend points

Vader sacrifices offense for the ability to not be one shot. I've found that to be quite valuable in keeping him around longer then an Interceptor.

That, and I'm finding the 1 bank to be really useful on the Advanced and Defender dials.

I've personally had a game where four ships focused on a defender and it lived to k turn and kill wedge next turn, it was down to one hull because wedge got a lucky crit in that took two off didn't save him.

Sure you can whiff the defence dice but that's true of any ship it's not a good reason to dislike a fighter, do you hate soontir because he can get one shot? Of course not.

It's a true heavy fighter that can do really well as long as you use it properly.

Congrats!
I'm glad you vindicated the Defender for yourself.
However, something indicates to me that none of the vindication was necessary and that you already thought the Defender was viable enough to play it in the first place.
In the meantime, the rest of us require more proof that the Defender is 'vindicated' than your post.

I guess you have to fly him to know that he is far from obsolete. He is very slippery, with the ability to go heavy on the offensive or defensive. I understand it is popular to hate on the Advanced, but Vader is far from bad. Especially with the Engine Upgrade.

I've flown him a few times and he is good with engine upgrade.

However for the cost the is just better option out there. Fel with PTL for example can move just as good or better. Hard to hit, and hits s lot harder

Royal guard pilot Again way cheaper. Give them PTL and away you go.

Omnicron pilot with engine upgrade and Rebel captive or vader

Leaving you with more points to put into shipd or upgrades.

I rely wanted to like vader.

He has an awesome ability,and maybe when the game was new he had more of a purpose, but as it is now, for the cost and what you get vs what's out there, there is much better way to spend points

I'm sorry, I know you have your opinion. I know those ships are all valid to take. But every time I hear people say things like "there are better ships for the points", or "you should take (PtL Royal Guard, X number academy TIEs, so on…) all I can seem to hear is "If you'd just take the exact same thing that pretty much everyone else does forever then that is fine." Except that blows hard. I don't want to do that. I don't care about meta. I took a squad that would be fun to fly and tricky to beat. That's it. Didn't care how competitive it was. It felt natural for me to fly them and that worked out great. God forbid we have some fun around here.

And if one more person talks about focusing down the Defender I'm gonna lose it laughing. GUESS WHAT? Three people tried it, and three people failed. It's a beast with 6 HP and 3 evades, and its dial gives it remarkable range control, especially when combined with a high PS. It can fire 4 attack dice at range 3 with a reroll and a focus if you kit it out that way, while getting 4 evades with optional focus. Now I'll admit, it's possible to focus it down. Really. But that is true of any ship in this game. You can kill Ten Numb or any b-wing when you fire on it 4 times. And when you take all things into account, that's actually easier to do. X-wings can be focused down in two shots, even Y-wings can go that fast. 2-3 good hits and rolling only 1 evade out of three will do that (and is statistically actually pretty likely). But X-wing, B-Wing, YT, Defender, Y-Wing… of all those great ships… if you get three hits against them in a single shot, there's only one ship that (by its own base stats) has the capacity to dodge it all.

Anyway, this is getting far afield. Defender is a good ship. My specific tourney list is irrelevant to that conversation. And I know my example is just one small bit for now. But keep in mind, trends and averages are all really just composites of many bits of data. But we won't know what's up unless people chime in with as many as possible.

I guess you have to fly him to know that he is far from obsolete. He is very slippery, with the ability to go heavy on the offensive or defensive. I understand it is popular to hate on the Advanced, but Vader is far from bad. Especially with the Engine Upgrade.

No, he isn't bad. The TIE advanced is not a bad ship. It's how much you pay for him, you can get a lot more power for less points.

Vader EU Outmaneuver sets you back 36 points.

3 points more than Bounty Hunter.

1 point more than Colonel Vessery and one point less than the man himself Rexler Brath.

Equivalent cost to three TIE fighters.

A full 6 points more than Fel PTL, 4 points more than Fel, PTL, Targeting Computer and still more expensive than Fel PTL Targeting Computer, Stealth Device/Hull Upgrade. Knock off another point for Carnor Jax equivalent and another for Turr Phennir equivalent.

Vader's the most bang-for-buck TIE advanced and you're still paying a premium for him. The TIE advanced is a very solid ship but not three points more solid than the TIE interceptor and definitely not 8-9 points more solid than a fighter. What are you getting for almost 10 points? Two shields, targeting computer, and debuffing your dial to worse than an X-wing.

My first couple games with the Defender were pretty disastrous. After experimenting with it though, I found that it is indeed a great ship.

It plays the long-range sniper game fantastically. Sitting at range 2-3 with an HLC it can do very consistent damage and is very hard to kill. Its dial helps it easily escape if it gets in trouble and can easily set itself up for another pass. A lot of people are saying that it's a "predictable" ship, but it's only predictable if you fly it predictably. It can do every maneuver in the game but a straight 1. In all the games I've played with it, I've only had to take a red maneuver twice. Even if you are stressed, you still have a ton of white maneuvers you can do, including a K-turn.

Out of the pilots, I don't like the Onyx. For 32 points you're not gaining enough over the Delta. The Delta is a great ship though. Even with it's low PS, it doesn't mind taking hits 'cause it can tank a lot. It's chances of getting blocked are also pretty nonexistant. Slap an HLC on it and it can really ruin someone's day.

Out of the named pilots, I'm not a fan of Brath. When his ability goes off he can win you the game (If you've ever slapped 4 crits on a falcon in one shot you know what I'm talking about), but you're paying a lot of points for something that's not reliable at all. Vessery on the other hand is a monster. With an HLC you're rolling 3/4 hits every shot. Combining him with Outmaneuver makes him even better. He chews through B-Wings and Falcons incredibly fast. Also Vessery won't care about being stressed, or barrel-rolling or boosting (if you have an engine upgrade). He'll get a target lock no matter what if you're managing them well.

I admit that the use of a Defender is not obvious at all just by looking at them, but if you give yourself some time to experiment with one, it is an incredibly effective ship.

I'm not sure people are really understanding how tough a Defender with HLC is. Sure, the HLC is not a defensive upgrade, but it does allow you to be effective from Range 3, which means you'll get AGI 4 against a lot of attackers. Combine that with 3 Hull/ 3 Shields and it takes so much work to bring down. That is a really stout combination. You just get to ignore a lot of attacks. I think that's why focused fire doesn't really work that well against this sort of Defender. 2 die attacks at long range are just a waste, and 3 die attacks aren't really doing a ton of damage either. It takes so much effort to bring down that it's hard to do without exposing yourself too badly to other parts of the list.

Which is pretty much how some of my tournament games went. Vader doesn't take too kindly to being ignored, especially with Outmaneuver.