Trust me, my opposition was anything but poor. And it's kind of insulting to them for you to say that. And to me, for attributing my wins to poor opponents and luck.

Luckily for me, showcasing such blatant rudeness and ignorance means I don't have to put a single bit of stock in your opinion.

Keep in mind that in your original post you described a game changing event so lucky that you literally stopped to take a picture of it, so try not to let your indignation boil over.

Yesterday, I took this list to a small local tournament (16 players, 3 rounds, no final rounds):

Rexler Brath, VI, HLC = 45

Backstabber = 16

Obsidian Squadron Pilot x3 = 39

VI was on Brath for a little insurance against Phantoms and other high PS hard-to-shoot at targets. I faced none of htese. It seemed like all the imperial players either missed the memo about how bad the Defender was or wanted to give it a go anyway. I've found that I don't really like formation flying, which I why I did Backstabber/Obsidians instead of Howlrunner Academies. I ended up placing second, with two wins and a modified win, with lower overall points scored than the winning player with two wins and a modified win. He also had a Defender (Vessery w/ 4 naked Scimitars). I would have liked have had a shot at that game, but they were only doing three rounds.

Overall, that HLC on the Defender is just great. You can do a great slow approach, pounding away at long range before K-turning in behind someone. Of note, I only once made use of a red turn, but it won me my third game. I had to finish off a TIE fighter that had just zoomed by perpendicular to me. The hard-1 was the only maneuver that would get me to tail him, and it was nice to have it in my back pocket even if it was red. I'm starting to view the HLC as a defensive as well as offensive boost. The power at long range, combined with the Defender's great range control is just killer.

I don't know the quality of the field (I'm pretty new the game, and I don't know these players). The first opponent was pretty new (like me). My second and third opponents seemed to know what they were doing, though. I'd say luck heavily played into the second game in my favor (Brath dropped 4 hits through an asteroid against Vessery, who rolled 4 blanks). I don't think it swung hugely in the other games.

Trust me, my opposition was anything but poor. And it's kind of insulting to them for you to say that. And to me, for attributing my wins to poor opponents and luck.

Luckily for me, showcasing such blatant rudeness and ignorance means I don't have to put a single bit of stock in your opinion.

Was not trying to be insulting I'm sorry. Just from your brief description it sounded like you had some luck going on and by poor flying I was attributing that to your phantom opponent because a phantom should be avoiding arcs like crazy. To be fair you did say you had an incredibly lucky shot on a phantom. So again was not trying to say you didn't fly well at all. If anything at the bottom of my post I said "I wouldn't take that list so kudos to you for winning with it". Sure it "doesn't fit a mold" that's what makes it crazy is that you took something like that and won, hence "kudos for winning".

Heh. "Anecdotal" my butt. ExpatSmuggler got pictures.

I don't think anecdotal means what you think it means.

Trust me, my opposition was anything but poor. And it's kind of insulting to them for you to say that. And to me, for attributing my wins to poor opponents and luck.

Luckily for me, showcasing such blatant rudeness and ignorance means I don't have to put a single bit of stock in your opinion.

This guy got it right on. I won my Wave 4 preview tournament with 10Hps, a variation of the 3 Amigos. I'd say pretty much all the guys I flew against were competent flyers as well. It's not always about HPs, it's knowing how to make the game play to your strengths and not your opponents.

because a phantom should be avoiding arcs like crazy

He had Vader. He either gets to arcdodge the phantom or shoot it uncloaked.

Sure it "doesn't fit a mold" that's what makes it crazy is that you took something like that and won, hence "kudos for winning".

Incorrect. Breaking the mold and defying the meta (while still not doing stupid things) is an optimal tactic. Take a netdeck and your opponents have seen it before, know how it flies, know how to counter it. Change things up and you have the advantage of surprise.

Trust me, my opposition was anything but poor. And it's kind of insulting to them for you to say that. And to me, for attributing my wins to poor opponents and luck.

Luckily for me, showcasing such blatant rudeness and ignorance means I don't have to put a single bit of stock in your opinion.

Keep in mind that in your original post you described a game changing event so lucky in your post that you literally stopped to take a picture of it, so try not to let your indignation boil over.

It was the casual insult to my friends (some of which come to this forum) that pissed me off. He can say whatever he wants about me.

Heh. "Anecdotal" my butt. ExpatSmuggler got pictures.

I don't think anecdotal means what you think it means.

Yes, I do know what it means. I just wanted to name drop.

I think the Defender is going to start being recognized for it's worth very soon. It's especially useful as an HCL platform, something the firespray isn't (which is important since many people argue they could get a BH for just three more points). In fact, I think it's the best HCL platform in the game.

I also think that the old notion of simply looking at number of ships/red dice and/or hull points as an identifier of list strength is becoming even less valuable than it was, in part thanks to a ship like the defender which is brutal at long range.

Brath is seeing some love in Regionals. Not a ton, but enough to take notice. I am surprised that Vessery isn't seeing more use.

Phantom + FCS or Shuttle + FCS should combo well with him.

Two point difference buys you two PS and swaps Vessery's ability of Brath's. Vessery's good but he's just a highly situational super-Howlrunner effect, whereas Brath has the potential to butcher with his ability. The main nail for Vessery is you've got to build around him with target-locking Imperial ships, whereas Brath can be a lone operator. Without another target locker Vessery's just a PS6 Defender.

Trust me, my opposition was anything but poor. And it's kind of insulting to them for you to say that. And to me, for attributing my wins to poor opponents and luck.

Luckily for me, showcasing such blatant rudeness and ignorance means I don't have to put a single bit of stock in your opinion.

Was not trying to be insulting I'm sorry. Just from your brief description it sounded like you had some luck going on and by poor flying I was attributing that to your phantom opponent because a phantom should be avoiding arcs like crazy. To be fair you did say you had an incredibly lucky shot on a phantom. So again was not trying to say you didn't fly well at all. If anything at the bottom of my post I said "I wouldn't take that list so kudos to you for winning with it". Sure it "doesn't fit a mold" that's what makes it crazy is that you took something like that and won, hence "kudos for winning".

Ok, gotcha. The specific lucky turn I mentioned was the Phantom rolling 1 blank and 6 focuses (without token). The Phantom's error was that it misjudge a turn slightly and very narrowly missed having Rexler in-arc, so didn't get to fire. This was Whisper, so not having the shot meant no easy recloak and focus. He had to use his action to cloak, so had no tokens. Rexler got 4 hits and two were cancelled, but the BSP's shot was truly amazing, because Whisper only needed 1 out of 6 dice to save himself.

Forget the Defender placing first in a tournament, is that a TIE advanced in the winning list?

Tell me, how much fire did Vader take? I'm wondering if he was drawing fire off of Brath, and generally how he was otherwise superior to Soontir Fel PTL with double defensive mods or one defence mod and Targeting Computer. I really want the TIE advanced to work so am eager to hear what it's got over a heavy (double health modded) interceptor.

Why did opt for a BSP+predator over Backstabber?

I feel stabbie > any BSP (for the points).

What am I missing?

Stabbie > BSPs with upgrades that help the BSP. BSP Wingman is occasionally better than Le Stab.

To Elkerlyc, I favored the BSP for two reasons: One, with the Predator you don't have to fulfill any special conditions to get it. Two, the build aims for my support to have consistent damage over time, and Predator delivers on that beautifully. And really I just like it. It felt nice to have a Black flying with Vader.

As for the Advanced, I really just have been wanting to try Vader with Outmaneuver. He performed quite well and yes, the psychology of his presence indeed drew quite a bit of fire. I never deployed him on the same side of the board as Rexler, and that really seemed to work out to my advantage since Brath is actually the main striker of that squad. I am not sure I would say it was superior to Fel, Vader was killed in 1 out of 3 matches. Though good, that's a little lower than my normal Fel Survival Rate. However, I've flown Soontir soooooo many times, and I just wanted to have fun with this tournament instead of building for what I might encounter. I just knew I wanted to take Brath because he's loads of fun. The fact that he and his HLC are immensely helpful against both Phantoms and YTs was just a bonus.

I've said it from the start the defenders a great ship and ffg play testing has again proven it's worth any cheaper it'd be broken it's not cheap but you whack a HLC on their it'll kill things very effectively, I've had two defenders take on four full health ships and win easily.

Goes to show maths alone does not tell the whole story, you can't budget the worth of that k turn accurately, it's a game changer.

That's a wonderful ship! Except for my first game where I lost because of a very bad luck rarely seen before (opponents rolling all success and me rolling all blanks, attack or defense), I have yet to lose with a Defender. My last list was 3 Delta+Ion Cannon.

The White K-Turn is very predictable, so like That One Guy said earlier, making a hard 3 when your opponent is waiting for a k-turn is wonderful! I also second that you need to plan a turn or 2 ahead to try to avoid the asteroids, but would like to add that making a k-turn across one can also surprise your opponent. I did it in my last game and the shield help mitigate the eventual damage.

Congratulation on the win TOG! Let show those Defender's naysayer that the ship is great!

either ure enemies were mere noobs in flieng or u were just to good for em and had had the favor of the dice gods on ure side ;P but congratz on ure victory FOR THE GALACTIC EMPIRE !!!

I don't think I saw a single Defender at the 60+ player Chicago regional yesterday :-(

Brath is seeing some love in Regionals. Not a ton, but enough to take notice. I am surprised that Vessery isn't seeing more use.

Phantom + FCS or Shuttle + FCS should combo well with him.

Vessery ability is really good, but I think the reason why Brath is seeing more play is because you need to build your team around Vessery while Brath is more of a lone wolf.

It might also be that TL is not a big asset of the Imperial playbook: they tend to use their actions to play more defensively (Barrel Roll, Focus, Evade) and a couple of their ship don't even have the TL action.

because a phantom should be avoiding arcs like crazy

He had Vader. He either gets to arcdodge the phantom or shoot it uncloaked.

Playing as a phantom you should be cloaked as of turn 1. That's the very 1st action you should be taking until you get in prime position to unleash your 4 dice.

Sure it "doesn't fit a mold" that's what makes it crazy is that you took something like that and won, hence "kudos for winning".

Incorrect. Breaking the mold and defying the meta (while still not doing stupid things) is an optimal tactic. Take a netdeck and your opponents have seen it before, know how it flies, know how to counter it. Change things up and you have the advantage of surprise.

Uuuh isn't that what I said? He took something that doesn't fit a mold and made it work?

Trust me, my opposition was anything but poor. And it's kind of insulting to them for you to say that. And to me, for attributing my wins to poor opponents and luck.

Luckily for me, showcasing such blatant rudeness and ignorance means I don't have to put a single bit of stock in your opinion.

Keep in mind that in your original post you described a game changing event so lucky in your post that you literally stopped to take a picture of it, so try not to let your indignation boil over.

It was the casual insult to my friends (some of which come to this forum) that pissed me off. He can say whatever he wants about me.

In this game there are winners and losers. Obviously your opponents lost (friends or not) they either had the dice gods against them or they didn't fly their squad as good as you. So again was not trying to be insulting to or your friends but come on in this game you win by flying better, by rolling better, by making less mistakes or a combo of the 3. I told you it was not to insult your friends or you and said I apologized if that's how it came out.

He said it was crazy, didn't he?

Oh my friend kept making the mistake of predicting the defender would K-turn and i threw him several times with a hard 3 right or left then next turn he was way out of position but a quick k had me on his six and blasting away with the HLC.

Yeah your dice can betray you and concentrated fire will down one but thats true of any ship, you can pile every upgrade on soontir and if he fluffs the defence roll he's dead.

That whisper case, if he only missed for a little bit, in most situations he could just barrel roll to get himself into fire arc (i guess an asteroid stopped him from doing so ?). To be honest, it's great you had fun and won using a defender, and cheering for it on the forums, but it would be nice to know the attendance and the lists you faced if you want us to draw any further conclussion outside anecdotical evidence.

Been running a lower level Defender w/HLC and with Jonus and Echo, and must say the defender has been stout. I giggle inside everytime I do the white Kturn.

The tournament had 3 rounds, I'll give you the lists as best I remember them:

First list was a PS list aimed to counter Phantoms.

Roark Garnet + ICT

Bandit Squadron

Wedge + Swarm Tactics

Biggs + Hull Upgrade + …R2-F2? The extra agility one.

This was the closest game. Losing the TIE in round one hurt, but he did get his free spank in (the loss of one shield would actually be Wedge's downfall, since much later Brath would flip 2 crits against him, and the second one drawn was the Direct Hit card). Lost Vader about 4 turns later, but not after he significantly damaged Biggs. This game was close because the first half of it I was almost completely wiffing both attack and evade rolls. About turn 4 is when I started rolling better, but never rolled more than one unmodified evade for the entire match. (Focus tokens played a huge roll here though.)

Game 2 was

Wes Janson + Veteran Instincts

Dutch Vander + ICT and the boosty R7 unit

Prototype Pilot

Airen Cracken (don't remember upgrades)

In this game I did my best maneuvering out of all of them. Got Vader up behind Wes and Dutch, while Rexler made strafing passes at the Prototype and Cracken. He then threaded them and moved past to deliver a punishing hit to the Y-Wing (critical hits mentioned earlier). The forethought put into his movement meant he went essentially unopposed, because I'd blocked many k-turn options with other ships. Even with Vader on his tail, Wes and the A-Wing cleaned up the BSP but not before he delivered consistent damage for 4 turns (then got taken out by the A-Wing). Vader almost got Ioned off the board, but between barrel rolling backwards and boosting to change trajectory managed to squeeze in with only about 1/16" left to spare. Phwew!

Third game was:

Boba Fett + VI + Gunner + HLC

Whisper + ACD + Rebel Captive + Sensor Jammers + VI

This player was admittedly trying something new. They knew the squad had some vital flaws (namely the inability to absorb a little bad luck), but just wanted to fly it for fun anyway. He flew well but the Dice Gods just weren't in his favor. I purposefully flew Vader against it in the opening rounds because I knew that HLC and Gunner would hurt without being able to turtle up with range 3, evade and focus (which ended up working out for me).

I don't think I saw a single Defender at the 60+ player Chicago regional yesterday :-(

Really, not one? I guess it's not too surprising considering there are other new ships in the getting more attention and use (phantom, Z-95), the falcon has been the easy counter to the phantom, and the defender has seen hate for months.

I don't think I saw a single Defender at the 60+ player Chicago regional yesterday :-(

Really, not one? I guess it's not too surprising considering there are other new ships in the getting more attention and use (phantom, Z-95), the falcon has been the easy counter to the phantom, and the defender has seen hate for months.

I find that funny since the Defender is a remarkable counter for the Falcon, and works quite well against the Phantom too (assuming you're taking one of the higher skill pilots).

All hail the Rexnnaisance!

Not to pour water on your achievement (and this from a fellow Rexler enthusiast) but a 3 round tourney hardly vindicates the Defender. Any ship can perform well when flown well with adequate rolls. It's still overcosted by at least 3-4 points.

I told you it was not to insult your friends or you and said I apologized if that's how it came out.

Dude, haven't you learned by now you can't have an opinion on these forums (let alone state your opinion) or else people get all kinds of buttmad?

People should just leave their feelings at home when they decide to post, or if they are that sensitive maybe avoid the internet altogether.

Buddy made a comment. The OP for offended, and buddy apologized

After which the OP from what I can tell ignored his apology.

Well back in subject.

It's nice to see vader in a top spot for once, but I really do find it amazing that this list was able to pull through when there are so few attack dice and hp. VS other ships that had it out gunned and hp.

I don't know as I wasn't there but I would assume the other players made some huge mistake or the dice were terribly not in their favor.

I'm not trying to criticize and take the joy of a win away. No matter what its always a nice feeling to come out on top.

But I'm still skeptical that this kind of list would do well against other players in a different venue.

You have three ships and two of those is only rolling two attack dice.

That to me just doesn't seem viable enough to withstand so many builds.

In this case you really need to rely on maneuvers to try to get behind or out of firing arcs.

The defender is the biggest hitter and worth the most points.

Turns like a truck

I would focus fire everything I have onto it and worry about the small ships later.

At two attack dice they are much less of a threat and just as hard to hit.

The few games I've played against a defender I've not seen it win, or really do anything useful.

I found it rather predictable, and imo I still prefer the Firespray over the defender