I see a lot of discussion going on about how 2 attack is the critical element in making this choice. With only 2 native attack, predator seems to make them more efficient when they desperately need it and act like a TL Lite. But outmaneuver removes an agility, albeit conditional on positioning. Convince me of the truth, show me the way!

I see a lot of discussion going on about how 2 attack is the critical element in making this choice. With only 2 native attack, predator seems to make them more efficient when they desperately need it and act like a TL Lite. But outmaneuver grants a 3rd, albeit unmodified and conditional, attack that still needs a TL or focus in a world where most other ships have 3 attack as their base. Convince me of the truth, show me the way!

Outmaneuver grants a minus to other ships defence not boosting the attack

It depends on the rest of the list and on your intended tactics and playstyle. Outmaneuver is better on flankers, for obvious reasons, so if you want to run your A-wings up one side and then curl back in for some deflection shots you'd probably rather have Outmaneuver (of course on A-wings you don't necessarily have to choose just one...)

If you want to fly up the middle and dare your opponent to spend shots on 3 Agility + Focus--or if you don't think your opponents will be easily outflanked--then run Predator instead.

I see a lot of discussion going on about how 2 attack is the critical element in making this choice. With only 2 native attack, predator seems to make them more efficient when they desperately need it and act like a TL Lite. But outmaneuver grants a 3rd, albeit unmodified and conditional, attack that still needs a TL or focus in a world where most other ships have 3 attack as their base. Convince me of the truth, show me the way!

Outmaneuver grants a minus to other ships defence not boosting the attack

My mistake, I knew that, dope. But my question stands essentially.

I see a lot of discussion going on about how 2 attack is the critical element in making this choice. With only 2 native attack, predator seems to make them more efficient when they desperately need it and act like a TL Lite. But outmaneuver grants a 3rd, albeit unmodified and conditional, attack that still needs a TL or focus in a world where most other ships have 3 attack as their base. Convince me of the truth, show me the way!

Outmaneuver grants a minus to other ships defence not boosting the attack

My mistake, I knew that, dope. But my question stands essentially.

I keep doing that. Opportunist and outmaneuver always get me.

Don't dedicated flanking ships also suffer in that they won't always get a shot off since they're trying to work their way around sometimes? Surely you aren't flanking the entire game otherwise A-wings would be invincible little gnats that never died.

Let's look at average damage...

F = Focus

R = 1 die Reroll

RR = 2 dice rerolls

2FR vs. 1 agi = 1.46

2FR vs. 2 agi = 1.11

2FR vs. 3 agi = .82

2FR vs. 4 agi = .59

2FR vs. 5 agi = .42

2FR vs. 6 agi = .29

2F vs. 0 agi = 1.5

2F vs. 1 agi = 1.15

2F vs. 2 agi = .85

2F vs. 3 agi = .61

2F vs. 4 agi = .43

2F vs. 5 agi = .30

So, with a focus, outmaneuver is at max, worth only .04 extra damage than predator against PS3+ ships (at range 2-3). Without a focus, the damage is:

2R vs. 1 agi = 1.05

2R vs. 2 agi = .77

2R vs. 3 agi = .56

2R vs. 4 agi = .39

2R vs. 5 agi = .27

2R vs. 6 agi = .19

2 vs. 0 agi = 1.00

2 vs. 1 agi = .72

2 vs. 2 agi = .51

2 vs. 3 agi = .35

2 vs. 4 agi = .24

2 vs. 5 agi = .17

So once again, outmaneuver is technically better, with a max advantage of .05 damage. 5% though is nothing to scoff at, if you take 20 shots a game (which is probably about average for total shots), then that would be an extra damage. However, if there's a single turn that outmaneuver doesn't activate, you're likely to lose the full # advantage that it has over predator.

Don't dedicated flanking ships also suffer in that they won't always get a shot off since they're trying to work their way around sometimes? Surely you aren't flanking the entire game otherwise A-wings would be invincible little gnats that never died.

Sure. But I used to feel pretty comfortable ignoring flankers with 2 Attack--particularly if I were flying some combination of TIEs, Interceptors, and Firesprays (i.e., fairly often). It's like being attacked by a rabid baby: what is it going to do, gum me to death?

Stripping away a defense die, though, makes you suddenly a legitimate threat. You're much more likely to hit that Interceptor (almost 20% more likely, in a couple of plausible scenarios), and your damage against the Firespray goes from 0-1 to 1-2, which is suddenly worth considering as a fraction of its total hit points.

A-wings with both are going to be very dangerous. 4pts ( with refit ) for both is nothing to sniff at.

A-wings with both are going to be very dangerous. 4pts ( with refit ) for both is nothing to sniff at.

The question is, is an A-wing with both better than an A-wing that has PTL for one of its EPTs? Mathwingers, I'd appreciate your insight.

A-wings with both are going to be very dangerous. 4pts ( with refit ) for both is nothing to sniff at.

The question is, is an A-wing with both better than an A-wing that has PTL for one of its EPTs? Mathwingers, I'd appreciate your insight.

The thing about PTL on an A is that you'll use it more for non-offensive actions than you would for TL+F anyways. Plus, in that scenario, you're best with outmaneuver because predator doesn't stack with TL.

Generally speaking I think predator is better for 3+ attack ships, and outmaneuver is better for 2 attack ships.

Reason being even if you use predator to get 2 hits on your attack, it still has a decent chance of being evaded unless the ship is 1 agility. Using outmanuever means you won't get 2 hits as consistently, but when you do they have a much better chance of getting through.

A-wings with both are going to be very dangerous. 4pts ( with refit ) for both is nothing to sniff at.

The question is, is an A-wing with both better than an A-wing that has PTL for one of its EPTs? Mathwingers, I'd appreciate your insight.

With just 2 dice, the only time TL is better than Predator (against PS3+) is when you would reroll both dice. Even without a focus token that's just 25% of all rolls; with focus, it's just 6%.

So if you let Predator take the place of an offensive action, it has at least 3:1 odds of being just as good as PTL, without the stress. So the only argument for keeping PTL is if you wouldn't normally spend one of your actions on buffing your offense--if you're in a tactical situation where you really want boost + evade, for instance, Predator isn't doing you any good.

The thing about PTL on an A is that you'll use it more for non-offensive actions than you would for TL+F anyways. Plus, in that scenario, you're best with outmaneuver because predator doesn't stack with TL.

I don't think TL is the action most would use. Boost is more likely from what I have seen so pred has its place but you're right, outmaneuver is still the better choice for PtL A's

For awings I take PtL and outM. Makes them really flexible as they can tank when they have to and hammer an opponent when they get the opportunity (especially jake!).

Ties are a bit more build and tactic dependent. It's hard for me to take either when you have Backstabber and NightBeast for cheaper. When I had my Apex Predator thread awhile back I tested both a lot. When I wanted one I had the other and vise versa. Both improve your offense and both have merits. Depends on the role of those ties.

I personally put Pred on Black Squadron TIEs. My reasoning is it's like having Howlrunner but not relying on proximity/formation, and Outmanoeuvre requires you to be out of the enemy's arc. A TIE/Ln doesn't always trump it's target for manoeuvres and would focus on using its barrel rolls to worry about getting closer, so Predator would just help. Plus most lists I see use a lot of PS2 or lower so the 2 dice reroll is a very very nice thing to have, especially since that means you're shooting first with Black Squaddies.

My lists doing that usually only has 2 TIEs like this though, with a few other surprises so the TIEs don't immediately seem like a primary threat for my opponent. However once they let one get close, they can pack a real nasty and unexpected punch

The avg. damage added by predator allowing you to reroll one die is .375 with two base attack dice; it's higher with more dice. And it applies to every roll. Outmaneuver can only remove one die, which only has a .375 chance of being an evade (without focus) AND is conditional on positioning. The only time outmaneuver is statistically better is against a ship with 1 agility that has C-3PO as a crew member, since 3PO has to have at least ONE die to come into play.

I think it also (for lower attack values) kind of acts like a TL action, allowing your a-wings to focus each turn and maximize their rolls. I think if outmaneuver was 2 points instead of 3 or predator was 4 instead of 3 it'd be more of a debate, but as is predator takes the gold.