vs.
I'm going to be a minority here, but... I'm gonna go with Wendy. Daisy can easily handle monsters with her free spells, that's true, but Wendy can simply evade them all, and not just the monsters in the streets. Also, to top it, Wendy starts the game with an Elder Sign. Anyone agrees with me? (although I doubt it)
Despite the fact that Wendy starts with an Elder Sign, I always kind of feel a little cheap when I use Daisy (even though I draw at random).
I do play Daisy as I would anyone else, and try not to take super-advantage of her abilities. That usually works.
But I do like playing Wendy more, because she's super-fast, and because she's weaker for being a kid. It's kind of neat that she can go under easier than the adults. Plus this sometimes makes using her Elder Sign a problem.
I have to choose Wendy, as that is part of my contrition for hating her at first glance because I didn't understand her. Now I do, and now she wins games for me. She's not tough, she's not flashy, she's not really that versatile...but she grandly excels at the one thing she does well: get in and out of Gates when the Streets are choked with Shoggoths and Dholes.
>sigh< Daisy. I like her, because I like Spells, and she lets me cast a lot of Spells. But she's just not that fun to talk about anymore.
Daisy is stronger and allows you to take control of the game (if you know what you're doing), Wendy on the other hand isn't a nearly guaranteed win when you draw her and thus, to me, is more fun ;') even though we librarians are supposed to stick together. I've kindof house ruled Daisy so that she can't search for Call Ancient One or Arcane Insight. ::Shrug:: she's still pretty brutal though. Didn't return your books on time? That's a double shrivelling.
Daisy. She can do everything Wendy can do with Summon Shantak. Because she's casting spells, she's less reliable in the streets, but on the other hand, she doesn't have to move if she's not mounted. Wendy has the advantage because she can seal a gate right away with her elder sign and a 2nd one pretty quickly because she starts with 2 clues.
Daisy has other combos too. I've read about them, but haven't tried them. So she's more interesting to play since she goes more than one way. Wendy's a one trick pony. It's a great trick, tho.
In the last games I played with them, they both easily sealed half the gates in their victories. They're both very good and both better than Mandy, the only other super investigator.
Neither of their abilites are immediately self-evident. Daisy especially requires some hefty knowledge of the game and putting the combos together.
In addition, neither of them is physically protrayed as desirable. Most novice players apparently don't want to play a child and don't want to play a Frumpy librarian. I say this because of the the way I distribute characters is to give the players a choice. Usually its one male and one female. Most of the time, both Wendy and Daisy are not chosen. When they are chosen, they aren't used maximally. (I've probably played with over 50 different people at conventions in the last year, most of whom are either complete novices or only have played the game a few times.).
Observations:
Wendy's players are relunctant to part with the elder sign. That's really key to her being used to her fullest. A really early seal on the right location can result in a couple of bounces (or an early burst 
).
Daisy's players don't like to lose the half turn it takes to read her tome or any tome, so the tome aspect is usually wasted. So if she get's a good spell at the beginning she does better than if she gets a mediocre spell, even if its free to cast.
The real question I have is Why did FFG make these super investigators, especially Daisy? They gave her a great special skill (one less casting cast), a great tome and another power that even lets her read the tome for no sanity cost. I'm sure that as a Librarian, she was originally only a tome reader but they discovered that she wasn't desireable enough. I think if they gave her one less sanity cost and one less movement cost to read a tome and maybe a random Unique tome and that's all, she'd be OK (read average).
For Wendy, if they actually did tie her evade ability to the elder sign (as several players thought), then there'd be at least one stragetic decision she'd have to make.
Daisy. Easily the strongest investigator in the game. Having the Livre is incredible
I disagree. Both Wendy and Daisy can handle monster extremly well. Daisy kills them, and Wendy evades them. With 6 Sneak she can even evade monster that aren't in the streets. The only difference between the two is that Wendy starts with an Elder Sign, which gives her the upper hand IMO. 3 clue tokens are nice, too.
Acebob said:
Daisy. Easily the strongest investigator in the game. Having the Livre is incredible
Y'know... It's funny, I used to think Mandy was stronger than Daisy, but that might be because I tend to play small player number games (and sometimes Daisy can't get out her combos as fast as I would like— if only because she's often needed for doing other more urgent things, like, making sure the number of gates doesn't wake the Ancient One). Buuut... The fact is I stopped playing Mandy much long ago, and I've only played a few games with Daisy (after exploring how thoroughly she can exploit the game, I became very reluctant to use her in games with more than two investigators or in games where I don't deliberately handicap her most powerful searches). But... Um... You're probably right. Most of the time she's probably better than Mandy (assuming again, that players know what they're doing). I do think you'd be better off in small investigator number games with Mandy though (1-2, and 3 on some occasions).
kroen said:
I disagree. Both Wendy and Daisy can handle monster extremly well. Daisy kills them, and Wendy evades them. With 6 Sneak she can even evade monster that aren't in the streets. The only difference between the two is that Wendy starts with an Elder Sign, which gives her the upper hand IMO. 3 clue tokens are nice, too.
No.
Daisy, turn one, stay in the library with stats set for library encounters. Read the Livre, search for alchemy.
Turn two, take out a bank loan, cast alchemy. Daisy now has $18.
Turn three, don't do the bank loan roll (you can skip it on the first turn after you get it), cast alchemy. Daisy now has $21, go to The Curiosity shop.
Assuming you lose one dollar every two turns, and you spend an average of $5 a turn, and make $3 a turn, wellll, you've got enough cash to shop through a large chunk of unique items. Buy all elder signs. Buy all tomes. Buy The Dragon's Eye (if you get it, go to the newspaper and hunt for a retainer with it, you should be able to get it in a turn or two and drastically increase your cash flow). With a little bit of luck, you'll get the Necronomicon— if you can do that, it's bascially game over. If you're not playing a small number of investigator team, you can send out another player to help daisy with shopping. She should dredge up some spells from tomes (for when she's done shopping— and if you get lucky, you'll get the second alchemy), and more probably, elder signs, possibly a King in Yellow, and an Eldritch tome. Of course, she won't be paying sanity for any of these tomes. She'll be able to supply other investigators with top notch equipment, and by trolling through the shop, she'll essentially be safely hunting for clue tokens and clue token equivalents.
There is no contest between her and Wendy, except in a small number investigator game. I'd say Wendy is superior in a 1-2 player game, and sometimes in a 3 player game. Still, even in that case, not necessarily, as another way of playing Daisy is just having her search for Arcane insight and then hang out at the library to pick up tomes and spells while the other player makes sure to seal gates that will have more gates open on them. Arcane Insight used properly— even without Kate, is a huge power boost.
Avi_dreader said:
No.
Daisy, turn one, stay in the library with stats set for library encounters. Read the Livre, search for alchemy.
Turn two, take out a bank loan, cast alchemy. Daisy now has $18.
Turn three, don't do the bank loan roll (you can skip it on the first turn after you get it), cast alchemy. Daisy now has $21, go to The Curiosity shop.
Assuming you lose one dollar every two turns, and you spend an average of $5 a turn, and make $3 a turn, wellll, you've got enough cash to shop through a large chunk of unique items.
Pitty that by that time, the game is already over.
kroen said:
Avi_dreader said:
No.
Daisy, turn one, stay in the library with stats set for library encounters. Read the Livre, search for alchemy.
Turn two, take out a bank loan, cast alchemy. Daisy now has $18.
Turn three, don't do the bank loan roll (you can skip it on the first turn after you get it), cast alchemy. Daisy now has $21, go to The Curiosity shop.
Assuming you lose one dollar every two turns, and you spend an average of $5 a turn, and make $3 a turn, wellll, you've got enough cash to shop through a large chunk of unique items.
Pitty that by that time, the game is already over.
You play five player teams. A five player team is absolutely capable of supporting a character who does nothing but shop for 5-8 turns (of course, a five player team can also send in a second player to shop to cut down the number of turns spent shopping). If you are incapable of making this work, it just means that you are incapable, not that it is impossible.
No, it means that's it's BORING. I would rather lose the game after my investigators explored the board, fought monsters, ventured into other worlds etc. than to win it after camping the entire game in a store, doing nothing but shopping.
But I gues I shouldn't be surprised. You proved more than once that you play to win, not to have fun.
kroen said:
No, it means that's it's BORING. I would rather lose the game after my investigators explored the board, fought monsters, ventured into other worlds etc. than to win it after camping the entire game in a store, doing nothing but shopping.
But I gues I shouldn't be surprised. You proved more than once that you play to win, not to have fun.
Well, I'm glad you think so. Once again you have demonstrated how carefully you read other people's posts. Perhaps you should go back to one of the previous posts in which I mentioned how rarely I play characters like Daisy and Mandy due to their being overpowered, and how even if I draw Daisy randomly, I handicap her out of personal preference. But once again, you are *so* right.
It should be noted that no where does the topic say we're discussing which is better. Normally I'd assume thats what we're arguing about but we could also argue about which player is more desierable/makes a better game.
If we're disscussing which is better then its Daisy hands down. Not only are her starting abilities very powerful but with the tome she starts with she esentually has 30+ additional starting abilities that she can pick from. Most expansions (specially KiY) have a few powerful spells.
I think Wendy makes a more interesting game. Though Ii've seen people play her and compplain that they got bored once she got her first 2 seals.
allstar64 said:
It should be noted that no where does the topic say we're discussing which is better. Normally I'd assume thats what we're arguing about but we could also argue about which player is more desierable/makes a better game.
If we're disscussing which is better then its Daisy hands down. Not only are her starting abilities very powerful but with the tome she starts with she esentually has 30+ additional starting abilities that she can pick from. Most expansions (specially KiY) have a few powerful spells.
I think Wendy makes a more interesting game. Though Ii've seen people play her and compplain that they got bored once she got her first 2 seals.
See the transition between post #5 and #6.
allstar64 said:
She is boring, but not until her third seal. 
Reason is that she doesn't need anything. She can go where she wants, when she wants to. There is some danger in the encounters and after her first two seals, there aren't that many clue tokens just lying around, so sometimes she has to go into dangerous locations.
Daisy is at least interesting because as pointed out of above she has numerous choices via spells for strategies. Some, of course, are better than others, but almost all spells are better in her hands than anyone else's.
mageith said:
allstar64 said:
She is boring, but not until her third seal. Reason is that she doesn't need anything. She can go where she wants, when she wants to. There is some danger in the encounters and after her first two seals, there aren't that many clue tokens just lying around, so sometimes she has to go into dangerous locations.
Daisy is at least interesting because as pointed out of above she has numerous choices via spells for strategies. Some, of course, are better than others, but almost all spells are better in her hands than anyone else's.
And no one is stopping anyone from turning Daisy into a second tier character by searching for a sub-optimal spell with her tome.
Avi_dreader said:
Right. It's hard for me to do that, being a gamer and all. So that's why she's either not included in the random mix or a watered down version of her is. (Thanks to Strange Eons). Since I give players a limited choice of investigators, they can test out the watered down version or use the other character.
In fact, almost all players that have used Daisy in my games do take a suboptimal spell or no spell at all and from her ranking in Tibs helpful investigator list, it appears that's pretty common. She's really only good in that hands of a veteran, or somebody who consciously looks for combos, and then she's too good.
mageith said:
Avi_dreader said:
Right. It's hard for me to do that, being a gamer and all. So that's why she's either not included in the random mix or a watered down version of her is. (Thanks to Strange Eons). Since I give players a limited choice of investigators, they can test out the watered down version or use the other character.
In fact, almost all players that have used Daisy in my games do take a suboptimal spell or no spell at all and from her ranking in Tibs helpful investigator list, it appears that's pretty common. She's really only good in that hands of a veteran, or somebody who consciously looks for combos, and then she's too good.
:') consider it a bit of roleplaying. The arrogant librarian, so cocky that she can defeat the Elder One, says that she shall select something weak against it, just to be sportsmanlike.
And don't forget what I said about Epic Battle and the difficult Kingsport AOs. Maybe it would be more helpful to see just the Kingsport investigators together, with no one else:
Oh. She's in the bottom three. Well Wendy clearly pulls ahead of everyone else, and Tony through Luke are pretty close.
Poor Charlie Kane. Your time will come. Go out there and slap Glaaki for me buddy 
Tibs said:
And don't forget what I said about Epic Battle and the difficult Kingsport AOs. Maybe it would be more helpful to see just the Kingsport investigators together, with no one else:
Oh. She's in the bottom three. Well Wendy clearly pulls ahead of everyone else, and Tony through Luke are pretty close.
Poor Charlie Kane. Your time will come. Go out there and slap Glaaki for me buddy
It doesn't matter what the statistics say. In terms of sheer power (when being used to full potential), Daisy beats Wendy. The statistics don't represent a number of important factors (and are, well, unfortunately somewhat meaningless as a result— except for what they say about those who gave you the statistics). Statistics 101, unless the sample contributing to the statistics is random and representative of the entire group from which it is taken, your statistical results are more-or-less meaningless for the purposes of extrapolation. The people who give the data for this are self-selected... Um... :') Yeah.
Sorry. The statistical methodology is fundamentally flawed. You're assuming that all players of Wendy are more-or-less equal in skill, and the same for players of Daisy. That's just not the case. And then the playing style issues comes up as well ::shrug::
Tibs said:
And don't forget what I said about Epic Battle and the difficult Kingsport AOs. Maybe it would be more helpful to see just the Kingsport investigators together, with no one else:
Oh. She's in the bottom three. Well Wendy clearly pulls ahead of everyone else, and Tony through Luke are pretty close.
Poor Charlie Kane. Your time will come. Go out there and slap Glaaki for me buddy
What Avi said. This doesn't really prove anything. And I notice you are not saying it does.
In addition, while this is a very interesting statistic to me but it doesn't tell us a whole lot. When Kingsport came out the big uproar was over Lily. She was supposedly way too powerful being able to heal two points of Sanity or Stamina per turn and Kevin relented. So how is Lily being played? per her power or per Kevin's relentment?
With complicated investigators and most of these are (esp Daisy, Rex, Lily, Wendy, Charlie and Luke) a lot depends on the experience of the players. As I said repeatedly, literally no one I've play with (and many of them are in your statistics) has played Daisy or Wendy to the max.
Charlie is so complicated nobody nows how he works. I haven't been able to make either Rex or Luke work myself. By working I mean contributing to the success of the party instead of bringing them down. I like trying to make Luke work, but Rex bores me.
An other investigator that defies logic is Amanda. Isn't she really high?
Yeah well draw your own conclusions about the "effectiveness list." There are a lot of unaccounted-for variables—including how players use Daisy, or if they choose Daisy specifically to go up against really tough bosses. It's only a loose correlation, and it will certainly take more submissions to make it tighter of a correlation. But generally I agree with you guys. Just wanted to toss some figures around for the curious observer.
mageith said:
An other investigator that defies logic is Amanda. Isn't she really high?
She's a college student who deals in the mind-rending. You tell me
No, I like Amanda. She's proven herself time and again for us in being very versatile.
Honestly, I've never gotten Wendy in the random draw, so I can't really say how she is.
My favorite Kingsport investigator that I have played though is Lola. *swoon* I absolutely love when I get her.
Plus I imagine Daisy is played more than Wendy. At least, thats how it is in my group. If she is played more, she will definitely have a lower effectiveness