I agree that it's poorly balanced and mixed groups tend not to go well.

I disagree that the space marine will always outperform a regular human, however. In combat, all a human needs to kill a marine is a las cannon and a high enough initiative modifier to shoot first. These are RP specific situations, though, and do not address the underlaying problem that, unless you specifically skill to kill marines, you're always going to come up short in mixed groups.

Marine-only campaigns can be interesting for those who like marines a lot, I suppose. It's good that the core marines are in the book, at least. The real problem is, as said above, the advanced archtypes, which are severely overpowered and, at times, incorrectly aligned, especially in tome of excess. Things got a bit out of hand there.

It doesn't mention the effective difference, but its not hard math.

It's not, no, but what I objected to was that you said that the book said that after spending experience, the difference in XP is 500, not 3400. As far as I know, it never says anything like that at all. I would be surprised if the developers did not know about these issues beforehand and knew full well that actual difference in experience is much higher than the 500xp difference the players get in starting experience.

I agree its best to use CSM or Heretics.

Why never touch Advanced Archetypes? Are they so imba or what?

They're pretty much broken. They're more or less high-to-end-game, pre-made characters, more than anything else, and unless everyone is running Advanced Archetypes, there's going to be a mountain of experience and ability difference between them.

Why Fantasy Flight Games decided that the Advanced Archetype system was the way to go in Black Crusade, I'll never know. It's the single most uninspiring and uninteresting "alternate career"-system in the entire WH40kRP line, even worse than Only War. I would've preferred ways to actually flesh out, build on or mould characters, rather than to pick one pre-fabricated nugget of broken on creation and stick with that.

That, and the fact that there's other issues (such as Alignment). Half the Archetypes will drop out of their predetermined Alignment the second they reach their next Corruption treshold, simply because they can't expand much more in Advances dedicated to the God they're already aligned to, and all the skills and talents they start with doesn't count towards Alignment.

Sigh.

While it's true that the Advanced Archetypes are stronger than most of the starting ones (their powers are usually better, and rather more unique), and the two of them should not really be mixed (as is the case for SM's and mortals), they are more or less internally balanced among themselves, and I frankly believe that they offer a better starting point for heretics in BC (especially in the case of 10 000 year old marines), as well as having effectively representing most of the unique CSM archetypes. Sure, you could probably convert each Archetype power into a talent (or series of talents), but that would be a lot harder to plan and balance for, unless you restrict it to 1 or 2 sets of abilities per character, and have a few appropriate talents as well as the proper alignment (when suitable) as prerequisite for taking them.

As for the issue of them dropping out of alignment, the easy and intuitive solution is just to let the aligned specialties have their starting talents count towards staying aligned if the player in question prefers it. Half the players I've had never even realized that their starting talents didn't count, and assumed that the Archetypes where aligned because of them.

It doesn't mention the effective difference, but its not hard math.

It's not, no, but what I objected to was that you said that the book said that after spending experience, the difference in XP is 500, not 3400. As far as I know, it never says anything like that at all. I would be surprised if the developers did not know about these issues beforehand and knew full well that actual difference in experience is much higher than the 500xp difference the players get in starting experience.

I agree its best to use CSM or Heretics.

Why never touch Advanced Archetypes? Are they so imba or what?

As for the issue of them dropping out of alignment, the easy and intuitive solution is just to let the aligned specialties have their starting talents count towards staying aligned if the player in question prefers it. Half the players I've had never even realized that their starting talents didn't count, and assumed that the Archetypes where aligned because of them.

There was a long thread on that somewhere and the general consensus was start the counter for each aligned class at 5-0-0-0 instead of 0-0-0-0. So a noise marine would be counted as having 5 slaneesh alignments and none of the others.

My human character, Boris, has been running alongside Space Marines since his inception, and regularly outperforms them all, with nothing but his trusty greataxe, Trusty. Yes it's a Legacy Weapon, but that +2 to initiative means that I don't care how tough you are. If I can hit you first, you go down.

Alternatively, I run a mixed party all the time. The humans are usually played by the far more ingenious players who can start off with gear that will quickly outstrip the damage the Marines are doing. And if they can't, they're hitting first. If Astartes are ever a troublesome opponent, then stock up on haywire grenades to turn them into walking statues.

So in all honesty, I haven't the faintest idea why people think Chaos Marines are so imbalanced.

I would argue that a Space Marine running around with a Legacy Great Weapon and the same build is going to be accomplishing more against any even moderately hard target given the same stat purchases and rolls (what with the +5 to SB between the SM benefits and power armor). In the games I've played, at least, you can't generally eliminate the main threats before they can even act, and power armor and unnatural toughness are a tremendous advantage in terms of surviving inevitable retaliation. Purchasing the Paranoia talent will give you +2 initiative anyway (and there are other talents that can help out as well), although really that +2 can be trivialized by any psyker or sorcerer with warptime or preternatural awareness (particularly if they have the talent that lets you use Per bonus for initiative rolls in the case of the latter). There's nothing like having 5-15 more initiative than everyone else in the fight, every fight.

I'm also not clear by what you mean on gear. Without exception CSM starting equipment taken as a whole is better than human starting equipment (considering the base classes), and all Heretics have the same rules for starting acquisitions as far as I recall. Nothing prevents Space Marines from acquiring the same fancy weapons that your human players are picking up, and Astartes are intrinsically advantaged in melee by their unnatural traits . There's no accounting for variability in player creativity and tactical decision-making, but considering in context of combat the same build by the same player stapled onto a CSM vs. a human baseline, I can't see how the CSM won't greatly outperform the human on average.

There's no accounting for variability in player creativity and tactical decision-making, but considering in context of combat the same build by the same player stapled onto a CSM vs. a human baseline, I can't see how the CSM won't greatly outperform the human on average.

QFT

You can give Human characters superior gear to have them sort-of catch up. But simultaneously this also means that the CSM will regain his edge once acquiring the same level of gear. At some point, all players will have reached the top in terms of gear, and at this point the CSM will be just as much better than he was before - if not moreso.

In other words, I perceive the problem to be FFG's flat "+5 Badassery" bonus, when it could have just as well been only a +1, perhaps with a -1 on something else. (note: not referring to Characteristics bonuses)

Generally, I'd say there's nothing wrong with outperforming Human combatants in some aspects of combat - in fact I would expect this of Astartes. But I believe the gap is too wide, and there is no reason it has to extend onto ranged combat as well. CSMs should be melee monsters; why exactly do their ranged weapons get a +25% damage bonus, other than "this is what we did for Deathwatch"?

Two words: "Horde Rules".

CSM's being locked into one rules-set for fighting hordes but humans having the choice makes a massive difference in my experience as a GM.

From a psyker point of view, the human archetype is flat out a more powerful psyker than the CSM, capable of much more devastation than any legion bolter ever could.

Never found there to be a balance problem with mixed groups myself.

The way I see it, Black Crusade essentially contains two games: the human campaign and the CSM campaign. Our gaming group has always done either all CSM or all human. As noted, the power differential is significant, but there are also thematic and roleplaying considerations as well.

I don't think anyone is disputing that CSM are mechanically more powerful - as genetically enhanced superhumans, it only makes sense for the CSM to be that way. There are some common arguments usually made that humans can excel in certain situations and CSM in others, giving them different niche areas. Usually, it is claimed that CSM are combat gods and humans can better excel socially. As some have pointed out, in the vortex this is not really true, since being a CSM is not really a social disadvantage - in fact it is a bonus, because you gain a certain amount of fear and respect for being what you are. Yet even if this were the case, would you want to play a session in which half of the players had to duck and hide in combat some of the time, and half of the players had to stand around in social situations like chumps waiting for the articulate characters to say something? This is just a recipe for boredom and frustration for everyone. In a good game session, players should have the option to meaningfully participate, if they choose, more often than not.

The other usual claim is something like 'but humans can better infiltrate imperial worlds.' Yes, this is true, but what are the CSM doing during this time? Waiting on a ship in orbit? A scenario in which this comes into play probably means that you have split the party, and you should never, ever do that unless you want to derail a session and make people bored.

Thematically, the two races are also different. When you play a human in BC, it is pretty terrifying. You are a tiny being in a vast universe that is at best indifferent. You are the plaything of incomprehensible beings older than planets. When you see a CSM, you feel like running the other way.

When you play a CSM, you are an immortal superbeing who is ten feet tall and made of kryptonite. Well not exactly. But you basically start out as a super-charged action hero who could probably show up and kill all the Expendables with a legion combat knife and a hangover. You don't fear a vast and terrifying universe, you beat it into submission. When you see humans, you react with indifference.

These are generalisations, of course, but the experience is very different for each.

I think perhaps the best evidence that mixed parties don't really work are the optional horde rules in Tome of Blood, which basically give you two systems so that humans don't just get vaporised. If you have to do something this drastic mechanically, something is wrong.

I'm not telling people how to run their games, run them however you like, using whatever races and archetypes you like. This is just the way I see it.

I would argue that a Space Marine running around with a Legacy Great Weapon and the same build is going to be accomplishing more against any even moderately hard target given the same stat purchases and rolls (what with the +5 to SB between the SM benefits and power armor). In the games I've played, at least, you can't generally eliminate the main threats before they can even act, and power armor and unnatural toughness are a tremendous advantage in terms of surviving inevitable retaliation. Purchasing the Paranoia talent will give you +2 initiative anyway (and there are other talents that can help out as well), although really that +2 can be trivialized by any psyker or sorcerer with warptime or preternatural awareness (particularly if they have the talent that lets you use Per bonus for initiative rolls in the case of the latter). There's nothing like having 5-15 more initiative than everyone else in the fight, every fight.

I'm also not clear by what you mean on gear. Without exception CSM starting equipment taken as a whole is better than human starting equipment (considering the base classes), and all Heretics have the same rules for starting acquisitions as far as I recall. Nothing prevents Space Marines from acquiring the same fancy weapons that your human players are picking up, and Astartes are intrinsically advantaged in melee by their unnatural traits . There's no accounting for variability in player creativity and tactical decision-making, but considering in context of combat the same build by the same player stapled onto a CSM vs. a human baseline, I can't see how the CSM won't greatly outperform the human on average.

Accurate weapons. Felling is usually tacked on, which punches through any advantage Unnatural Toughness would provide, and the Long-Las can take hot shot packs that negate half of Power Armour's AP and provide Tearing, which increases likelihood of high damage. Since it's a human weapon it can likely be modified at that level to be even better. At this stage, it's a Marine-killer. And you say that +2 is inconsequential. I disagree. If we're going to throw psychic powers into the mix, then you must allow for psychic powers on the Human side as well. They can easily get most powers Astartes can. And with more experience at startup, a broader variety at higher Push levels.

You've also omitted Haywire weapons and powers. At the same level, it's unlikely a human will be wearing Power Armour. So a Human with Haywire weapons suddenly has infinitely more of an advantage over a Marine.

The amount of special effects you can tack onto a gun is limited, and even then the Marine can just do the same whilst still benefiting from their general +25% damage bonus on gear - as mentioned above, you can give Human characters special stuff to be better, but this becomes inconsequential once the CSMs upgrade as well. Not to mention the ton of benefits from the implants. The Long Las + Hot Shot is a joke simply because it is utterly outclassed by the default Legion Bolter, both in raw damage as well as the latter allowing burst fire whereas the poor Human with his Long Las has to reload after every single attack. I'd really like to see how you want to kill a Marine faster than a CSM would.

Haywire grenades are an option, of course, but not really a solution. First off, you are assuming that Human combatants would for some reason never wear power armour, simultaneously dismissing that this makes them even squishier and easier to kill. Furthermore the CSM can always opt to simply leave his armour behind if the player really thinks Haywire is an issue, which would probably happen if the GM is so predictable that "somehow" all enemies you encounter are equipped with this grenade type.

I don't think anyone is argueing that the problem is as massive with psykers (although CSM Sorcerers are safer to use, and retain the resilience of their combat-focused brethren), but the fact remains that the unnecessarily wide gap between Humans and Marines in the ruleset forces players to either forego straight combat roles in mixed parties, or accept that they're just never going to measure up to the 7-foot spotlight-hoggers - as it sometimes happen in novels or other 40k fluff.

As Catullus mentioned, even the game designers seem to have noticed it by now, and begun to insert more special rules into an already rules-heavy game in a way that feels forced and unrealistic, and almost makes you feel you are playing a different game.

Felling : "Okay, we understand Marines are too tough to take down. Here's a special effect to neutralise their UT."

New Horde rules : "Horde rules and their crazy damage output were written for ubertough Marines. I suppose we can make them work for Humans if we just treat them differently?"

... stand by for further forced rule inserts to make Human characters feel more valuable in mixed groups, instead of simply addressing the core underlying problem of exaggerated Toughness and arbitrarily tiered weapons.

You seem to be ignoring the extra potential 2d10 damage an Accurate weapon can put out. Even without the hot-shot, on the highest setting a Long-las can put out more damage than a Bolter. Yes, it's only a single shot, but with that kind of power one shot can be all you need. Meanwhile, the Bolter is not ignoring the Unnatural Toughness. The long-las is also more competitive at long-range. After all, why assume all fights take place in close quarters?

And if he leaves power armour behind, he's also denying himself a slew of other advantages, and the scales are somewhat evened out.

There are various implants that will allow a human to be at least as strong as a Space Marine. The only thing that would take more doing is trying to match them in Toughness. This is offset by the initiative bonus they get, so that they will more often be the first to fight. The best shield is never getting shot.

Yes, there is a little disparity, but I do not believe it is a huge deal. Humans start with more exp, and get more Gifts of the Gods/Rewards than Chaos Marines, which certainly cannot be overlooked when comparing the two.

You seem to be ignoring the extra potential 2d10 damage an Accurate weapon can put out. Even without the hot-shot, on the highest setting a Long-las can put out more damage than a Bolter. Yes, it's only a single shot, but with that kind of power one shot can be all you need. Meanwhile, the Bolter is not ignoring the Unnatural Toughness. The long-las is also more competitive at long-range. After all, why assume all fights take place in close quarters?

And if he leaves power armour behind, he's also denying himself a slew of other advantages, and the scales are somewhat evened out.

There are various implants that will allow a human to be at least as strong as a Space Marine. The only thing that would take more doing is trying to match them in Toughness. This is offset by the initiative bonus they get, so that they will more often be the first to fight. The best shield is never getting shot.

Yes, there is a little disparity, but I do not believe it is a huge deal. Humans start with more exp, and get more Gifts of the Gods/Rewards than Chaos Marines, which certainly cannot be overlooked when comparing the two.

Any equipment or implants that a human can use to match an astartes, the astartes can just as easily use to make himself even stronger (to a point where the human cannot even hope to match him), so gear is really a non issue; the extra Gifts of the Gods do not, in themselves, counterbalance for an untyped +5 to every test ever, as well as the unnatural stats, better weapons and the heaps of free combat talents (a marine who never spends a single point on combat talents is at worst a decent combatant in nearly any situation, with almost any weapon he can find, while a heretic who does the same is more or less useless) and a bunch of little utility abilities that marines get. In any field other than combat, the difference is negligible (or rather, much smaller than the difference between a trained and untrained individual in the field itself), but in combat, marines are simply superior in every possible way, and this disparity cannot be bridged by any means outside of arbitrary restriction on the options available to marines (the 1.5 point advantage to initiative is notable, but greatly counterbalanced by the increased durability of marines unless playing a game of rocket tag, in which case obtaining a surprise round is really more important than anything else, and marines have better stats, and therefore on average better odds to obtain or avoid one). The extra xp provided to humans helps them at the start, but cannot hope to bridge the existing xp gap between them, and this advantage becomes proportionately insignificant over times, while the marines' advantages always remain current.

You seem to be ignoring the extra potential 2d10 damage an Accurate weapon can put out. Even without the hot-shot, on the highest setting a Long-las can put out more damage than a Bolter.

I was dismissing it as it depends on the shooter achieving a minimum of 4 DoS in addition to just hitting the target. If we want to calculate with highest attack results, we will also have to factor in the additional shots from the Legion boltgun:

Long-las with Hot Shot: 3d10+6 Pen 4 = 22.5 damage (rounded to 23) with Pen 4

Legion bolter in burst mode: 1d10+9 Pen 4 x 3 = 14.5 damage (rounded to 15) with Pen 4 x 3

vs a Space Marine target with TB 8, AP 8 for a total resilience of 12 (after deducting Pen 4 of both attack types)

The long-las causes 11 Wounds (23-12) after TB and AP,

The three bolt hits cause 3 Wounds (15-12) after TB and AP each, for a total of 9 Wounds.

This may look as if the long-las wins out, until you realise that you have to spend the next round reloading the cartridge and aiming, sacrificing your attack action, whilst the boltgun-wielding CSM squeezes off another burst. So in the 2nd round of combat you have the long-las still only at 11 Wounds, whilst the Legion bolter has accumulated 18. And to top it off, semi-auto bursts are a Half action, meaning the CSM still has another Half action to spend on doing something else, such as moving closer for melee combat.

If you add Felling to one weapon (how?), you can just as well add it to the other, in which case the bolter would do even more damage.

Also, the long-las does not have variable settings; that is a lasgun special rule. If you want, we can calculate its damage, too, but given that you are missing out on the extra d10s from the Accurate trait, I think it's safe to say you end up with less damage.

And by the way, after re-checking the book, I also think you are overestimating the effect of Haywire. In the end, all it does is having a 60% chance to apply a Movement speed penalty for one round (possibly two if you roll a 9 or 10).

It also has a chance to (20% each) temporarily apply a -10 or -20 penalty to ranged attacks or (40%) even prevent weapon use altogether, but this has nothing to do with power armour and instead depends on the character's weapon (= non-primitive).

in the end, it boils down to this:

Can you shoot first?

and

Can you kill the marine before he can shoot back? Because if he can shoot back, he will kill you.

The best balance decision so far in terms of direct confrontation has been the +2 initiative bonus. Pumping Agility first as a human is the way to go to outclass marines (unless you're a psyker). And even there, the marine can, theoretically, do the same, though you'll likely go well before NPC marines in that case and it can be immensely satisfying to see them drop before getting a shot off.

It's not really a balancing act, however. And I don't think it needs to be balanced, per se. Marines should be better at direct, in your face combat. Where they shouldn't be are fields where excessive size becomes a disadvantage. Giving them proper penalties for their size (Hulking...) might be all that's necessary.

in the end, it boils down to this:

Can you shoot first?

and

Can you kill the marine before he can shoot back? Because if he can shoot back, he will kill you.

[...]

That's just it. Even if you get to move first in the Turn Order, the odds of you actually killing someone on your first Round is abysmal, let alone killing a Space Marine of any kind. Is it possible? Of course it is. Is it likely? Hell no.

A +2 Initiative over the marines is nothing, especially when considering that the total value will always vary between 1-10, and everyone has individual modifiers added to that, that will differ independantly of whether they're marines or not (Agility, Intelligence or Perception Bonus, depending on talents).

Start adding other bonuses in that anyone can get, and it gets even lower.

Since Space Marines are Hulking when wearing their armour (but does not take penalties for it), let's not forget the fact that if you're duking it out with melee weapons, you might even be in the funny situation of even though you both have the same Agility Bonus, you can't reach him, even if you get to move first, but he can reach you just fine.

Either way, that Characteristics Bonus CSM have over humans already means that the Initiative Bonus only really is +1.5, not even +2. The odds of the Space Marine having a higher relevant Characteristics Bonus that means that his Initiative will be higher, is pretty.. high.

I'm ambivalent about this.

On the one hand, I think arena death matches are a poor way to judge balance between PCs - yes a CSM will be able to beat a human in a fight, all else being equal, but since there is a great deal *else* and it is seldom ever *equal* I'm not sure that's a completely helpful comparison.

This is particularly true given that BC (like all the 40K RPGs) has fairly open ended character customization. Two characters of exactly the same archetype and they can be wildly different in power depending on how well they are optimized. And I'm also pretty sure that the Psyker/non-Psyker power differential is *far* greater than that between CSMs and humans.

That said, the fact that the CSM archetypes all have *consistent* and *comparable* combat abilities can make it hard to balance mixed parties, not because they're necessarily so much "more powerful" than the humans but because they are specifically suited to a very particular playstyle (effectively a small, elite, hard-hitting military unit).

In a CSM-only game you can *assume* a certain amount of combat capability on the part of all PCs which you can't in a mixed game. This isn't a dealbreaker, but it's something to bear in mind.

Hah, I just noticed I forgot to factor in the fact that the CSM has 12 chances to score Zealous Hatred (6 attacks with Tearing over 2 rounds) compared to the Human's 2 (1 attack with Tearing), too.

Anyways, my personal opinion is that CSM should wreck face in melee, but there is not one good reason for the discrepancy in ranged weapons. Simply giving everyone the same guns is probably not going to even it out completely, but it's the most obvious and easiest step.

DeathByGrotz makes a good point when mentioning Hulking, and I never understood the logic behind an ability to move quickly (which is, by the way, just one of several different interpretations of the Black Carapace) being capable of negating a size bonus even in situations where the target is entirely unaware that it's getting shot at in the first place. Not to mention that Marines should be Hulking even without their power armour, so what does this have to do with the implant in the first place.

Unfortunately, I'm not entirely sure how to fix it, aside from just removing this perk entirely. You could probably excuse such a drastic step by pointing to the fact that Marines are still "only" as hard to hit as smaller Humans in Hulking PA, even though Astartes would in most cases be much bulkier, though this is in reality a weakness of the size steps being a bit too abstracted (a "softer" system that says +/-2 per feet might be a solution).

Alternatively, introduce a slight Dodge penalty to PA and have CSMs (and maybe Humans with a special Talent representing familiarity) ignore it?

As always, I also remain sceptical of the immense levels of soak in these games (Wounds+AP+Toughness), but this is a problem that does not affect only Astartes but high-level Humans as well. At least UT is no longer a flat multiplier in BC ... a small step into the right direction.

Very true. Such comparisons are only a very rough guideline on what to expect - besides, I feel the concern is more about Humans and CSMs engaging the same opponents, and the CSM always outshining Human combatants, rather than the party turning on each other. At least this would be my expectation for mixed games.

"Everyone deserves to feel cool" is an important aspect of RPG sessions, imo.

Agreed. But there are ways to make non-marine individuals shine, even in combat.

Snipers are a good example - we had a Renegade-archetype in a recent group who absolutely wrecked face.

The same standard arguments were made; "legion weapons are so much better", "you need astartes toughness bonus and power armour to survive heavy combat", "marines get higher stats", etc.

None of these are untrue; but there are ways around them.

The resulting character:

1. Took advantage of not being in stealth-negating power armour to sneak into position.
2. Hadbetter BS than a marine due to the archetype BS bonus and adroit (ballistic skill).
3. One-upped the issue with legion vs normal weapons by requisitioning heavy weapons (a customised autocannon, I think).

The opening combat rounds usually started with a master-level adversary's head bursting like an overripe melon as an armour-piercing solid projectile went through it.

DeathByGrotz makes a good point when mentioning Hulking, and I never understood the logic behind an ability to move quickly (which is, by the way, just one of several different interpretations of the Black Carapace) being capable of negating a size bonus even in situations where the target is entirely unaware that it's getting shot at in the first place. Not to mention that Marines should be Hulking even without their power armour, so what does this have to do with the implant in the first place.

Unfortunately, I'm not entirely sure how to fix it, aside from just removing this perk entirely. You could probably excuse such a drastic step by pointing to the fact that Marines are still "only" as hard to hit as smaller Humans in Hulking PA, even though Astartes would in most cases be much bulkier, though this is in reality a weakness of the size steps being a bit too abstracted (a "softer" system that says +/-2 per feet might be a solution).

Alternatively, introduce a slight Dodge penalty to PA and have CSMs (and maybe Humans with a special Talent representing familiarity) ignore it?

A small notice to power armor+black carapace: Although the Astrates size is hulking and the power armor is also hulking in size wearing one not increasing the size to the next rank. A power armor gives a huge amount of protection and also servomotors to help moving it's massive weight. But it gives more strength that is needed to move the armor. (This is represented by the bonus to strength). This increase also helps moving the wearer own body making him more agile and some what quicker.(like having extra muscles). Actually wearing power armor and being connected via a Mind Impulse Unit should also negate the size penalty to humans. (or not if the black carapace gives a more fluid control)....

I was going to say it, but it looks like it's already been said: This shouldn't necessarily be a straight-up contest to determine which is the more powerful. We know Chaos Marines are more physically powerful, but there are ways around it and ways for humans to compete.

By the way, Felling 4 is present on most sniper rifles, to my knowledge, and Felling does nothing to a Human without Unnatural Toughness.

Just a few examples of my own, however: A human Heretek routinely bought up exotic xenotech to level the gap, such as an adapted Tau Stealth Suit. My own Heretek routinely carried around a single-shot autocannon as a makeshift sniper rifle, and she pulled her weight with two Marines in the group. Boris the Xurunt Frost Father is widely regarded by three other Marines as the deadliest fighter in the group, even with his toughness not comparing to theirs, he is able to strike fast enough and hard enough that Marines are left leaning up his leftovers.

The abundance of Gifts should not be overlooked, as these can really help to determine a battle before it's even begun. Having Fear 3 should not be discounted, as I've seen it used with great effect even on Chaos Marines, who are affected as equally by Fear as Humans, something which is often overlooked.

Agreed. But there are ways to make non-marine individuals shine, even in combat.

• if the Human can get better guns, then so can the CSM .. including Legion stuff and Xenos gear
• a Human combatant must specialise to come close to a non-specialised CSM, who remains more versatile and can still rival the Human
• any role a Human combatant can occupy can be more effectively filled by a CSM PC, as the few drawbacks are hugely outweighed by the advantages *

I suppose this may sound a bit pedantic, and maybe I'm just missing some important piece of information here. "Being there" and "being told about it" are often two very different things.

What I was trying to express is: If the Astartes is Hulking even without the armour, he should grant the +10 bonus to attackers by his basic nature. By the book's own fluff, the Black Carapace allows the user to operate the armour as if it were an extension of his own body, so if the body is incapable of negating that penalty, how does the armour do it?

I see what rationalisation you're getting at, but the armour does not make them run faster or give them a bonus to Agility or makes them Dodge and Parry better. All of this should be included if it'd work the way you suggest. If attacks would work the way you suggest, everyone would have their Agility score reflected as a penalty to an opponent's attacks.

Instead, the removal of the +10 hit bonus is merely a bypass of standard rules, circumventing even the most basic combat mechanics. And this is unfortunately symptomatic of a lot of Marine special perks - I suppose we can be lucky we don't also have Squad Modes in BC.

In a way, I suppose I don't like these ©SM rules not just because, in their current version, I consider them unbalanced, but also because the game is slowly being corroded by tons of special rules and exceptions to deal with issues that keep surfacing in their wake. Yes, stuff like Felling hurts my suspension of disbelief. No, it's not a big deal by itself, but unfortunately it is just one example from a list that apparently still seems to grow (anyone want to take bets on the next change?).

Ironically, on the other hand I think Marines also suffer from these rules because by all rights they should be stronger than Unnatural Strength currently represents it. Getting beaten by a normal Human in a game of arm-wrestling must be an awkward experience for a Legionary. Unless mutations or cybernetics are involved, this hurts my suspension of disbelief, too.

... and now I feel like I should set aside some time to come up with a workable alternative instead of just bitching about what I consider broken like some sort of broken record. I'm sorry, sometimes I just get carried away.

By the way, Felling 4 is present on most sniper rifles, to my knowledge, and Felling does nothing to a Human without Unnatural Toughness.

Erm....No it isn't. Only the longlas and reaver long rifle have Felling (the long rifle is also only Felling (3)). Stub/Sniper rifles, Splinter rifles, Ghibelline Howler rifles, etc. do not have Felling, and indeed Felling is otherwise a very difficult trait to actually find on a weapon, so these two guns inexplicably join the ranks of various exotic and daemonic weapons (and tend to have a higher base rating to boot). Notably, the longlas only gained Felling with Black Crusade- no comparable properties were present in Rogue Trader or Dark Heresy, so it already seems to be a quite artificial balancing mechanism arbitrarily applied to two specific guns.

Not that Felling itself makes any sense. The first iteration of the DH 2.0 beta changed it to generic Toughness penetration, and that the way our GM has chosen to treat it as well.

Also, the scenario here is not "Humans vs. Marines", it's "Humans and Marines vs. any arbitrary adversary". The assumption that Felling will be a factor is not necessarily valid.

Ironically, on the other hand I think Marines also suffer from these rules because by all rights they should be stronger than Unnatural Strength currently represents it. Getting beaten by a normal Human in a game of arm-wrestling must be an awkward experience for a Legionary. Unless mutations or cybernetics are involved, this hurts my suspension of disbelief, too.

Honestly, I sort of wonder if Unnaturals shouldn't just be replaced by straight +5 or +10 bonuses to that stat per level. This would allow for much higher effective caps for attributes that can be acquired as unnaturals in the current system, but I'm not convinced that a particularly strong Space Marine should have a realistic chance of failing what is "Challenging" by the standards of an ordinary human- high difficulty or opposed tests against similarly mighty things are where the element of tension and failure should be present for those who are superhumanly capable in their chosen field. It would also fix oddities like characters who fail or succeed spectacularly with equal frequencies due to DOS's from unnaturals or the relative uselessness of odd numbers of unnaturals on most stats.

Obviously this would make Protean Form, Warptime, etc. even more broken, but I'd argue that they should never have existed in the first place.

Obviously this would make Protean Form, Warptime, etc. even more broken, but I'd argue that they should never have existed in the first place.

And besides, there's nothing that says that everything must be represented by a characteristics bonus. I'm sure there are many other options!

The abundance of Gifts should not be overlooked, as these can really help to determine a battle before it's even begun. Having Fear 3 should not be discounted, as I've seen it used with great effect even on Chaos Marines, who are affected as equally by Fear as Humans, something which is often overlooked.

This goes double since Tome of Decay came out. Possessed can go a long way to making up the gap imposed by astartes implants in the much vaunted 'fair fight'*, especially if the marine isn't expecting it!

Not that it doesn't come with its own downsides, of course.

* Note that any resemblance to an actual fair fight if planning on manifesting vorpal claws half-way through a brawl is purely coincidental.

[...]

The abundance of Gifts should not be overlooked, as these can really help to determine a battle before it's even begun. Having Fear 3 should not be discounted, as I've seen it used with great effect even on Chaos Marines, who are affected as equally by Fear as Humans, something which is often overlooked.

"Abundance of Gifts" ?