Alright, I'm starting to see both of these on a lot of build lists and there seem to be VERY vocal supporters for each, so let's hear which one is ACTUALLY better. Let the fur fly!

Rebel Aces A-Wing with both?

I read on some board somewhere that outmaneuver is better due to the math (you are more likely to hit), but you haveto consider how often you will actually be able to trigger it. Predator is constant and more reliable, but the math is against it. Overall I think the difference was only about 15% more likely to deal dmg with outmaneuver.

So it really comes down to 2 things:

1.) How well do you fly

2.) Does one fit your build better

If you know you can get out of their arc almost every turn, then outmaneuver. If you are just looking to beef up your total dmg. output and don't want to worry about having a useless upgrade some turns, predator.

Just like any other upgrade it just depends on what roll you are looking to fufill.

That being said, these two upgrades seem very powerful overall

EDIT: Not my math, so don't take my word for it!

I read on some board somewhere that outmaneuver is better due to the math (you are more likely to hit), but you haveto consider how often you will actually be able to trigger it.

Outmaneuver has a small but consistent edge over Predator* in average damage. As TehOne says, the major difference is that Predator is triggered on every attack, so it's not really about which one does better damage but rather how often you'll be able to use Outmaneuver.

(*Predator pulls ahead against PS1-2.)

I read on some board somewhere that outmaneuver is better due to the math (you are more likely to hit), but you haveto consider how often you will actually be able to trigger it.

Outmaneuver has a small but consistent edge over Predator* in average damage. As TehOne says, the major difference is that Predator is triggered on every attack, so it's not really about which one does better damage but rather how often you'll be able to use Outmaneuver.

(*Predator pulls ahead against PS1-2.)

Precisely. Removing an evade token reduces their probability of getting an evade by .375 and rerolling an attack die only adds a .25 probability of getting a hit. So the question of which is better comes down to the intangibles: on a high value target like corran horn, wouldn't predator be better? What if your ship already has the target lock action? My thoughts are predator is better on a low attack die/high value ship (it's like a free TL every turn for A-wings vs. TIE swarm; and a high value target is likely to have the most enemies pointed at it) and outmaneuver is better suited to higher attack value/lower priority targets or your flanker.

How would you use them?

Certain situations would give an edge to predator, imo. One of the local Houston players helped me with this but using Rexlar Brath you will probably be served better using predator instead of outmaneuver. Will Brath's ability you will always want a focus and predator serves as a target lock, sorta. Giving you a chance to nearly always use his focus to flip those cards to nasty crits, and that is huge.

I was sold on outmaneuver when I one shotted a shieldless but otherwise undamaged Boba Fett while using Etahn at range one.

Tough to say how prevalent the Falcon + C-3PO combo with remain, but Outmanoeuvre basically shuts down C-3PO completely when it's active which is pretty powerful in itself.

How would you use them?

I would reserve Outmaneuver for flankers; anything that's more likely to be in a head-to-head than take a deflection shot gets Predator. (Of course it's a false dichotomy, but you know what I mean.)

outmaneuver is great "when" you get to use it. Something noteworthy about outmaneuver: even when you don't get to use it, you are gaining a bit of table control as opponents will go out of their way to ensure your ships with outmaneuver are in their firing arcs.

I like predator better, though i think one or two ships with outmaneuver in the same list has merit.

I think I'd only use Outmaneuver on something with Boost, like a A-Wing or Interceptor. It might be useful on something with barrel roll, like a Tie Fighter or E-Wing.

But on say a X-Wing, being able to reliably get out of your targets arc just isn't that likely, so on something like that I'd consider Pred more useful.

I like outmaneuver on awings (double EPT with PTL) and defenders (white Kturn and/or HLC). But pretty much everywhere else it's predator.

I like outmaneuver on awings (double EPT with PTL) and defenders (white Kturn and/or HLC). But pretty much everywhere else it's predator.

Outmaneuver on Echo is godly. Nobody arc dodges like Echo.

Tough to say how prevalent the Falcon + C-3PO combo with remain, but Outmanoeuvre basically shuts down C-3PO completely when it's active which is pretty powerful in itself.

That does of course assume that every ship that shoots at the Falcon has it or is Wedge, which is a bit of a stretch.

I like outmaneuver on awings (double EPT with PTL) and defenders (white Kturn and/or HLC). But pretty much everywhere else it's predator.

Outmaneuver on Echo is godly. Nobody arc dodges like Echo.

Yes but that dos mean leaving the VI/acd build or the PTL/SPA/adv sens build... No one is doing that. No one. Ever.

My friend played Vader with outmaneuver the other night. He got to use it quite a bit. With an engine I could see Vader being a nasty NASTY flanker.

The math on predator is wrong (kinda). It assumes that 1 attack die is rolled for the entire attack (unlikely). The more attack dice you throw, the more likely you'll be to have a die (or 2) to reroll. On a 2 attack die attack against anything ps 3 or above, predator nets you .375 additional hits (.56 if focused) it gets even better when shooting at ps 2 or 1. On a 3 attack die attack against ps 3 or above it gets you .4375 extra hits (.656 if focused). I think its pretty clear its better than outmanuever.

Where outmanuever excels is in situations where you are target locked and focused. Predator doesn't pair well with target lock clearly. But when you can gain both the lock and focus, outmanuever is an extra to get you even more hits.

The current main problem with outmaneuver is that ships that it is good on (highly mobile) need their ept for something else. Tie Interceptors need PTL, Phantoms pretty much need VI. Test pilot A wings will be the best candidate for outmaneuver (and even then it is a toss up on whether to run outmaneuver or predator along side ptl). I think it mostly comes down to personal preference.

That said, outmaneuver is extremely effective against wave 4 falcons, which will likely be extremely popular due to their effectiveness vs phantoms. YT generally don't care which way they are facing and outmaneuver nullifies C3P0. So there is something to be said for that.

The current main problem with outmaneuver is that ships that it is good on (highly mobile) need their ept for something else.

Vader tend to disagree. Don't upset the Dark Lord please.

Outmaneuver I find to be better on Vader and Vessery, but Predator in almost every other circumstance I like more

The math on predator is wrong (kinda). It assumes that 1 attack die is rolled for the entire attack (unlikely). The more attack dice you throw, the more likely you'll be to have a die (or 2) to reroll. On a 2 attack die attack against anything ps 3 or above, predator nets you .375 additional hits (.56 if focused) it gets even better when shooting at ps 2 or 1. On a 3 attack die attack against ps 3 or above it gets you .4375 extra hits (.656 if focused). I think its pretty clear its better than outmanuever.

Where outmanuever excels is in situations where you are target locked and focused. Predator doesn't pair well with target lock clearly. But when you can gain both the lock and focus, outmanuever is an extra to get you even more hits.

my assumption for the math was that for each die you have a 50% chance of getting a hit (three hits, one crit/die) on any given die, with a 50% chance of a not hit (keeping focus out of the equation for the time being.). So if a die has a 50% percent chance of getting a hit and it's re-rolled, theres another 50% chance of getting a hit.

I see your point that the likelihood of predator coming into play increases with the number of dice rolled (.5 at one, 1 at two, 1.5 at 3…etc.) but once the die gets rerolled its still a 50% chance of getting a hit, so the probability of getting an extra hit out of predator should be (.5 x number of dice rolled) x .5…..right? I haven't done probabilities in a while so i'd appreciate if you could walk me through this…also where you were getting the .375 for the likelihood of another die being rolled…that works out to just 3/8 and there are more hit results per die than that.

Edit: I knew that couldn't be right as soon as i typed it so i sat down and figured out the impact of predator:

Probability of Predator coming into play:

(8^n - 4^n)/8^n, where n is the number of dice rolled

multiply that by the probability of a single die resulting in a success, .5, and viola! average number of successes that predator adds. It adds .25 for one die, .375 for two, .435 for three and .469 at four attack dice.

I REALLY wish people would stop advertising that outmaneuver neutralizes C3PO. This is only true if you only have the one ship remaining or, as someone else said, every ship has it. Otherwise, you are just pushing the C3PO attack down the line to the next guy who doesn't have outmaneuver. Unless you are splitting your fire and trying to take down the falcon with a single ship I guess. In which case, good luck.

I like outmaneuver on awings (double EPT with PTL) and defenders (white Kturn and/or HLC). But pretty much everywhere else it's predator.

Outmaneuver on Echo is godly. Nobody arc dodges like Echo.

Yes but that dos mean leaving the VI/acd build or the PTL/SPA/adv sens build... No one is doing that. No one. Ever.

Which is exactly the reason to do it. People get too hung up on what everyone is doing. Treat them the same way everyone is and you will lose, because right now the phantom isn't winning much. I am running them differently and having lots of success against many different builds. Your flying skill wins you games with the phantom more than the upgrades anyway, but the right upgrades can put you over the top in the right circumstances.

I like outmaneuver on awings (double EPT with PTL) and defenders (white Kturn and/or HLC). But pretty much everywhere else it's predator.

Outmaneuver on Echo is godly. Nobody arc dodges like Echo.

Yes but that dos mean leaving the VI/acd build or the PTL/SPA/adv sens build... No one is doing that. No one. Ever.

Which is exactly the reason to do it. People get too hung up on what everyone is doing. Treat them the same way everyone is and you will lose, because right now the phantom isn't winning much. I am running them differently and having lots of success against many different builds. Your flying skill wins you games with the phantom more than the upgrades anyway, but the right upgrades can put you over the top in the right circumstances.

I am a fan of outmaneuver and recon specialist on echo with acd ofcourse