Disclaimer: I haven't played a lot of games with wave 4 stuff yet.

It appears that there is a swing back towards high PS to combat Phantoms (particularly Echo), and I had a thought. Since VI Echo is only PS 8 and there seems to be a lot of Ps 8-9 thrown at her, what about running echo without VI and not even trying to win the initiative bid against other PS 8 pilots? Something like this:

Echo, Predator or Outmaneuver, ACD, intelligence agent

38 points, and the idea is to just stay cloaked until you know (from intelligence agent) that you can get behind someone.

Any merit to this thought?

The whole PS/Init bid is really going to depend heavily on your local meta.

If you tend to face a lot of PS7+ ships then VI may be worth it. But if you face a lot of PS5 or less ships then VI isn't going to do much for you at all, since you already have the highest PS on the table.

The trick is, what if there's 1 PS7+ ship, then you may still beat most other stuff, is VI worth it then? At that point Intel Agent may do you more good then VI does.

I think I'd your going against lists like competitive or even friendly games where you don't know what your friends is flying VI is a must (unless you know your friend never flies anything high pilot score)

At a pilot score of six your having a greater chance of other ships firing first.

At eight you close that gap some and gives you a better chance to be Cloaked before he can shoot.

I've seen echo work well with push the limit and advance sensors but she can still go down hard. Two evade dice is not much defense for so many points that can go down easily

Leaves you little room for error. One mistake can cost you about 3/8 of your squad

Sure ps9 will get to shoot first but I'd rather one ship take a shot over 2-3 possibly.

There is a lot of ships you can be up against in the ps6-8 range over 9.

It's not all PS 7+ opponents with echo, PS9+ and you've lost the advantage even with VI. It only makes a difference for PS 6-8 pilots. I don't think there's many lists that will have more than 2 in that bracket.

I don't have the card for VI, so I've been using other things. My personal favourite is outmanoeuvre, as nearly every shot he/she has is from outside of arc.

What about

"Echo" (30)

-Push the Limit (3)

-Advanced Sensors (3)

-Engine Upgrade (4)

-Intelligence Agent (1)

41 points

It's hefty, point-wise. But Intel Agent as OP suggested would help the arc-dodging against higher PS ships/tell you when it's a better idea to cloak.

Hypermobility was a term thrown around for AdvS+EU B-Wings. I figure with the possibility to acquire a cloak token, barrel roll, and/or boost, decloak where possible/needed, and then move, the concept of hypermobility is even more effective if applied to the Phantom.

The Phantom dial has the same amount of green as the B-Wing, just +1 speed to each green maneuver, and a lot less red. So the advantage of AdvS is not so much preserving your action before making unusual moves as it is giving you even more flexibility on an already flexible ship, and especially so with PtL.

The EU might not be worth it compared to ACD, especially if you save your "Once per round" trigger with PtL to snag a focus token along with that +2 evade dice. However, with Echo's PS, there's a good chance a lot of ships are shooting first, especially without VI. So having a maneuverability action to help arc dodge might not be a bad trade, in the end.

Drawbacks are still turrets.

Intel Agent may not be necessary as it might be possible to outright avoid the higher PS ships without needing to know their exact maneuver, it could be a better choice to put a different crew on.

On the surface the idea of Intel instead of VI seems functional. Where it fails is ships with movement actions; even more so on ships with movement actions that can be used before dial reveal. AS B-Wings and Phantoms are common enough that I don't think Intel Agent is nearly as useful as waiting until other ships have moved.

It only makes a difference for PS 6-8 pilots.

So I was currious just how many pilots fall into the 6+ range, and I don't know that anyone's counted them before. So I did, and here's the results.

PS 6 6 Rebel, 8 Imperial. These are ships that Echo would be tied with without VI.

PS 7+ 14 Rebel and Imperial. These are ships that Echo would lose to without VI.

PS 9 2 Rebel and Imperial. These are ships that Echo would lose to even with VI.

It only makes a difference for PS 6-8 pilots.

So I was currious just how many pilots fall into the 6+ range, and I don't know that anyone's counted them before. So I did, and here's the results.

PS 6 6 Rebel, 8 Imperial. These are ships that Echo would be tied with without VI.

PS 7+ 14 Rebel and Imperial. These are ships that Echo would lose to without VI.

PS 9 2 Rebel and Imperial. These are ships that Echo would lose to even with VI.

It's not about how many there are, it's about how often you see them. Wedge, Han, Soontir, & Vader may be 2 PS9 ships on either side, but how many lists include one, or more, of them.

Also worth noting, how many other pilots could fall into your student categories thru the use of VI.

It's not about how many there are, it's about how often you see them.

Sure, you'll see Wedge a fair amount more then you do many other lower PS X-Wings. But like I said I was curious how many there were. I wasn't trying to make a claim on how often you'll see them.

I tend to run all high PS ships no matter what I play, even before Wave 4. Now I tend to add VI to get two to three PS9+ ships every build as antiPhantom medicine! Soontir + VI gives a PS 11! This also helps against Han!

What about

"Echo" (30)

-Push the Limit (3)

-Advanced Sensors (3)

-Engine Upgrade (4)

-Intelligence Agent (1)

41 points

It's hefty, point-wise. But Intel Agent as OP suggested would help the arc-dodging against higher PS ships/tell you when it's a better idea to cloak.

Hypermobility was a term thrown around for AdvS+EU B-Wings. I figure with the possibility to acquire a cloak token, barrel roll, and/or boost, decloak where possible/needed, and then move, the concept of hypermobility is even more effective if applied to the Phantom.

The Phantom dial has the same amount of green as the B-Wing, just +1 speed to each green maneuver, and a lot less red. So the advantage of AdvS is not so much preserving your action before making unusual moves as it is giving you even more flexibility on an already flexible ship, and especially so with PtL.

The EU might not be worth it compared to ACD, especially if you save your "Once per round" trigger with PtL to snag a focus token along with that +2 evade dice. However, with Echo's PS, there's a good chance a lot of ships are shooting first, especially without VI. So having a maneuverability action to help arc dodge might not be a bad trade, in the end.

Drawbacks are still turrets.

Intel Agent may not be necessary as it might be possible to outright avoid the higher PS ships without needing to know their exact maneuver, it could be a better choice to put a different crew on.

PTL on a Phantom doesn't give you more flexibility it hampers it. Now you are restricted from 13 maneuvers to 4 and all at speed 2. Additionally if you opponent has stress inducing hardware and can double stress you, you are really screwed. I just think you never want to purposely stress your phantom out.

Outmanuever is the EPT you would want if you didn't run VI. It's really not that bad of an idea to not run VI with echo, as long as you don't think you'll run into other echos. That's really the only problematic pilot in that PS range. With whisper it's different because it lets him go somewhat toe to toe with Han.

I think decoy should be mentioned. It cost two points and has a range of two. Boba with VI is PS 10, soontir and maybe Vader can swap PS too.

If I may throw my two cents in......

I haven't run Veteran Instincts on any of my phantom games (5 so far)

Echo + predator + Advanced Cloaking Device + recon specialist + Sensor jammer. Its not let me down once yet.

With 4 defence dice most of the time its safe but sensor jammer helps a lot aswel. Its not died yet ( I have just jinxed myself ).

So no it doesn't need veteran instincts.

I just think you are gambling too much without VI. Sooner or later you are going to run into a list thats all PS 7-9 and you'll end up in an arc unless you are clairvoyant. Two evade dice are going to fail and sensor jammer is easily countered by high PS.

Why put yourself in a disadvantage against other VI phantoms?

I think you can get away with it. PS7 isn't extremely popular so you aren't gain much there. PS8 is more popular nowadays (Luke, Corran, Tycho, Boba) but I'm not sure how widespread they will be.

The most widespread phantom counters are PS9+ to deal with Whisper also, in which case Echo w/VI gains you nothing.

I think Echo with VI is safer, but Echo with outmaneuver is better for dealing with its strongest counters. I think it really depends on how anti-phantom your meta is.

If you are going the advanced sensors = mobility route then you might want Stygian Particle Accelerator. Multiple evade/focus tokens can go a long way when you don't have 4 dice to dodge. The question for me on this load out is Recon specialist vs. intel agent.

Advanced Sensors with PTL generates a ton of movement shenanagins. When you can you green after PTL and are not stressed. 4 green moves on echo are still what? At least 24 different locations (taking only extreme forward/back BR)... Still much better than most ships. Takes a different kind of thinking again to run a phantom this way. Done it a few times for much fun and its still successful when masterfully flown.

Sure ps9 will get to shoot first but I'd rather one ship take a shot over 2-3 possibly.

There is a lot of ships you can be up against in the ps6-8 range over 9.

Unless of course, they're using VI as well...

I can see a case for fielding VI on almost every single PS7/8 pilot and above, just to annoy Phantom players...

I would say if you are not going to have VI you should substitute it in with somethings to make you more durable or less of a target. You can't count on your maneuverability saving you when you move ahead of others

Ok...

4/2/2/2 ship with evade and focus tokens and crazy mobility. What is not to like?

I know people are running vi+acd almost exclusively right now but that doesn't make it unstoppable nor does not using that combo make it useless. Come to the middle and play out the entire game...you'll appreciate it when ACD gets banned anyway.

(I don't think it should! Only jesting here).

ACD is not going to be banned