Okay math-wingers, I've got a question for you:

At its core, is a TL & R7 a better defensive action than focus?

I know there is a lot that goes into things (like choosing targets, attackers chosen action, attack value, etc.), but I'm curious to see if anyone has done a breakdown.

Simple Answer: No. Simple Reason: You have to already have a target lock on a ship before it attacks you. Having to spend that lock isn't any different than spending a focus, IMO.

Complicated answer: In my experience, when it works, you it works great. I have tested it in several games and never have taken damage on an attack defended by R7. Works doubly well if you also spend a focus, just like TL+F on attack. But, you have to HAVE that target lock on the ship to begin with. They can easily decide not to attack you. There is also the possibility that, because it is a reroll and not a result conversion, they can roll a result that is worse for you than their first.

BUT, there is one ship that is born to take this upgrade. Tarn Mison, the PS3 X-wing Pilot in the Transport. When an enemy declares him the target of its attack, he may acquire a target lock on that ship. It makes an extraordinarily durable X-wing. People don't want to shoot at him, because when they do, they always whiff. But R7 only activates once per round, so he will still succumb to focused fire. Therefore, fly him next to Biggs or a few higher priority targets, and he will really annoy your enemy late game when they don't still have 3-4 or more attacks to sink into him per turn.

Faced it and the worst it did was make me use focus to take out Tarn, in one case the re-roll of three hits actually gave me a better result ending in one hit and 2 crits.

It might end up with blanks being rolled but equally you may get a nastier result.

Don't know the maths that's not my area only going of personal experience.

Well, you most certanly can do both btw ... so why not do the focus action?

Of course you need to have the FCS which puts a TL on the attacked ship.

There is nothing mathematical about that point by now...

The R7 unit is limited to one attack (defense) per round (not much different then any token) so i would of course take an attack that is high on hits...

Also make sure that you let him reroll even the blanks...i know its risky

(you can reroll only once and you can make him reroll his attack dice before he can change them which might put an end to Han and Gunner if you let him reroll all)

You will of course have a risk about the reroll... but dont you have the risk as well to not even roll an EYE when you only do focus?

If you want the pure math what is better then the other there i cant help ya since im not one of the gurus... but im sure you will get the answer

And btw my favorite E-Wing Setup: Etahn + Pred + FCS + EU + R7 (yes alot of points who cares i like to fly it )

Long live the Empire!

Yeah Tam would be the best option for that droid. Always has a TL on the ship shooting at him. Putting that on any other ship and you take the very real risk of having the TL not be useful for defense.

Agree that Tarn is the best use for R7, but it can go on other ships if you have Dutch in your squad - possibilities possibilities!

TL;DR: Don't run it on an E-wing without a combo, but otherwise trust it the way you'd trust focus.

At its core, is a TL & R7 a better defensive action than focus?

Suppose your opponent has a focus token. You'll force a reroll of all hits, crits, and focus results. That changes the distribution from 75% hits (meaning crits, hits, and focus results) to 56% hits, which is about what it would have been if it weren't modified at all.

If your opponent has a target lock instead, it precisely undoes their action. You'll force him or her to reroll all hits and crits, and then the target lock will be spent to reroll the focus and blank results; every die will be rerolled, meaning it's just a naked attack roll.

So whether it's better than focus depends on the ship. It's approximately the same as focus for an X-wing, moderately worse for an E-wing, and moderately better for a Y-wing.

But that analysis also ignores the strategic context. Target lock is more desirable than focus for offense (higher likelihood of crits, plus it sticks around if you don't want or need to burn it on the round you take it), so making it usable on defense at all makes target locks even spiffier. R7's effect can be comboed with focus in the same way most ships can use a TL+Focus stack for offense. And as Engine25 noted, R7 is a great combo with Tarn Mison and with FCS on an E-wing.

If your opponent has a target lock instead, it precisely undoes their action. You'll force him or her to reroll all hits and crits, and then the target lock will be spent to reroll the focus and blank results; every die will be rerolled, meaning it's just a naked attack roll.

Not exactly....

If your opponent has a TL on you, and rolls multiple blank dice, they can still use their own TL to reroll those... because you obviously aren't going to force him to reroll blanks.

Agree that Tarn is the best use for R7, but it can go on other ships if you have Dutch in your squad - possibilities possibilities!

I think R7 would be pretty nice on Dutch himself, since he won't be expecting too much out of his 1 defense die anyway. I haven't tried it out yet, though.

If your opponent has a target lock instead, it precisely undoes their action. You'll force him or her to reroll all hits and crits, and then the target lock will be spent to reroll the focus and blank results; every die will be rerolled, meaning it's just a naked attack roll.

Not exactly....

If your opponent has a TL on you, and rolls multiple blank dice, they can still use their own TL to reroll those... because you obviously aren't going to force him to reroll blanks.

Right. But the result of your TL and your opponent's TL is that all of the dice will be rerolled, so ultimately it's as if your opponent had no token available to modify the attack dice.

not if it's 2 crits and 2 blanks... then you EACH get something you want.... ya know?

Biggs is where I'm thinking of this. He can also ensure that a target attacks him. If the math says the average benefit of R7 is the same as focus for an X-Wing then it's not worth the two points.

It also seems logical to me that R7's usefulness varies by the attacker's attack value.

There's also the idea that spending it may not be the best idea. IE if you are being attacked, and you have a focus token. The attacker gets three hits, you roll 2 evades and a focus result, but you haven't fired yet. Might be worth it to take a damage to keep it for a better shot, especially if he is out of tokens or is close to being destroyed. Similarly, with R7, if they get a hit and three blanks, I'd keep my target lock for attack. You kind of want them to get an above average result at first, so then you can spend your lock and hope it gets worse. Its tremendously unlikely to roll four hits, particularly without a focus or Target Lock. So, if they have a target lock but on you but they get four hits on the initial roll, it is ALMOST a mathematical certainty they will get a worse result.

not if it's 2 crits and 2 blanks... then you EACH get something you want.... ya know?

Sure. But you spend your TL to reroll the crits, and then your opponent spends his or hers to reroll the blanks. Every die has been rerolled, so it's the equivalent of a naked attack where neither of you had an action. Your TL "undoes" your opponent's TL, like two opposite electrical charges or a particle and an antiparticle.

There's also the idea that spending it may not be the best idea. IE if you are being attacked, and you have a focus token. The attacker gets three hits, you roll 2 evades and a focus result, but you haven't fired yet. Might be worth it to take a damage to keep it for a better shot, especially if he is out of tokens or is close to being destroyed. Similarly, with R7, if they get a hit and three blanks, I'd keep my target lock for attack. You kind of want them to get an above average result at first, so then you can spend your lock and hope it gets worse. Its tremendously unlikely to roll four hits, particularly without a focus or Target Lock. So, if they have a target lock but on you but they get four hits on the initial roll, it is ALMOST a mathematical certainty they will get a worse result.

So if you target lock ship A and then ship B target locks you, what happens to target lock on ship A? If you lose it then I agree with the sentiment above but if you keep the lock on A AND also get a lock on B that you expend right away to counter the attack from B then the verbiage above would only apply if your only target is the one targetting you and is in a joust position (or turret).

So if you target lock ship A and then ship B target locks you, what happens to target lock on ship A?

However if you already have a blue token and go to TL a different ship you'd effectively lose the TL you had, and gain a new one on the 2nd ship.

There's also the idea that spending it may not be the best idea. IE if you are being attacked, and you have a focus token. The attacker gets three hits, you roll 2 evades and a focus result, but you haven't fired yet. Might be worth it to take a damage to keep it for a better shot, especially if he is out of tokens or is close to being destroyed. Similarly, with R7, if they get a hit and three blanks, I'd keep my target lock for attack. You kind of want them to get an above average result at first, so then you can spend your lock and hope it gets worse. Its tremendously unlikely to roll four hits, particularly without a focus or Target Lock. So, if they have a target lock but on you but they get four hits on the initial roll, it is ALMOST a mathematical certainty they will get a worse result.

So if you target lock ship A and then ship B target locks you, what happens to target lock on ship A? If you lose it then I agree with the sentiment above but if you keep the lock on A AND also get a lock on B that you expend right away to counter the attack from B then the verbiage above would only apply if your only target is the one targetting you and is in a joust position (or turret).

Fair point, as you may not have a shot on the ship that attacked you. But, as usual, you can only have one target lock at a time and to acquire another you must remove the first upon acquisition of the second. Then, you spend the second, and then you are target lock-less.

So whether it's better than focus depends on the ship. It's approximately the same as focus for an X-wing, moderately worse for an E-wing, and moderately better for a Y-wing.

The usefulness of focus for defense is based on agility value. So, shouldn't the usefulness of R7 be affected be attack value of the ship shooting at you?

There's also the idea that spending it may not be the best idea. IE if you are being attacked, and you have a focus token. The attacker gets three hits, you roll 2 evades and a focus result, but you haven't fired yet. Might be worth it to take a damage to keep it for a better shot, especially if he is out of tokens or is close to being destroyed. Similarly, with R7, if they get a hit and three blanks, I'd keep my target lock for attack. You kind of want them to get an above average result at first, so then you can spend your lock and hope it gets worse. Its tremendously unlikely to roll four hits, particularly without a focus or Target Lock. So, if they have a target lock but on you but they get four hits on the initial roll, it is ALMOST a mathematical certainty they will get a worse result.

It doesn't work like this, though--attack dice are rolled and modified, THEN defense dice are rolled and modified. You'll have to decide whether you want to burn the TL on modifying your opponents attack dice before you get to see what your defense dice roll is.

There's also the idea that spending it may not be the best idea. IE if you are being attacked, and you have a focus token. The attacker gets three hits, you roll 2 evades and a focus result, but you haven't fired yet. Might be worth it to take a damage to keep it for a better shot, especially if he is out of tokens or is close to being destroyed. Similarly, with R7, if they get a hit and three blanks, I'd keep my target lock for attack. You kind of want them to get an above average result at first, so then you can spend your lock and hope it gets worse. Its tremendously unlikely to roll four hits, particularly without a focus or Target Lock. So, if they have a target lock but on you but they get four hits on the initial roll, it is ALMOST a mathematical certainty they will get a worse result.

It doesn't work like this, though--attack dice are rolled and modified, THEN defense dice are rolled and modified. You'll have to decide whether you want to burn the TL on modifying your opponents attack dice before you get to see what your defense dice roll is.

Defense dice aren't mentioned in my scenario... Kind of implied that you'd then roll to ignore any hits that still punch through after the rerolls.

Ooh, I took your first scenario to mean that you were considering saving R7 for use after seeing your defense roll, not as a parallel example using a focus token. My bad.

Tarn + R7 might be the best 25 point X-wing you can get

So whether it's better than focus depends on the ship. It's approximately the same as focus for an X-wing, moderately worse for an E-wing, and moderately better for a Y-wing.

The usefulness of focus for defense is based on agility value. So, shouldn't the usefulness of R7 be affected be attack value of the ship shooting at you?

Yep, both the attack and defense value factor in when comparing R7 and focus. I did some math, and here's what I got for the average damage on a 2 agility ship, with attack dice focused in all cases.

(Disclaimer - I'm not a mathematician, just a guy with a spreadsheet. I was pretty careful, though.)

Average damage with:

2 Attack vs. 2 Defense

Def unmodified: 0.85

Def focused: 0.475

R7 reroll, Def unmodified: 0.558

R7 reroll, Def focused: 0.306

3 Attack vs. 2 Defense

Def unmodified: 1.53

Def focused: 1.07

R7 reroll, Def unmodified: 1.05

R7 reroll, Def focused: 0.668

4 Attack vs. 2 Defense

Def unmodified: 2.26

Def focused: 1.77

R7 reroll, Def unmodified: 1.55

R7 reroll, Def focused: 1.12

So for an X-wing with R7, it looks like focus is the better defensive action when attacked by a ship with 2 or less attack dice, while target lock is better for 3+ attack dice. But the difference at 3 dice is very minor, and of course, it can only be used against that one attacker.

But if you're going to try Biggs with R7, don't waste your defensive target locks on 2-attack-dice ships.

So whether it's better than focus depends on the ship. It's approximately the same as focus for an X-wing, moderately worse for an E-wing, and moderately better for a Y-wing.

The usefulness of focus for defense is based on agility value. So, shouldn't the usefulness of R7 be affected be attack value of the ship shooting at you?

Yep, both the attack and defense value factor in when comparing R7 and focus. I did some math, and here's what I got for the average damage on a 2 agility ship, with attack dice focused in all cases.

(Disclaimer - I'm not a mathematician, just a guy with a spreadsheet. I was pretty careful, though.)

Average damage with:

2 Attack vs. 2 Defense

Def unmodified: 0.85

Def focused: 0.475

R7 reroll, Def unmodified: 0.558

R7 reroll, Def focused: 0.306

3 Attack vs. 2 Defense

Def unmodified: 1.53

Def focused: 1.07

R7 reroll, Def unmodified: 1.05

R7 reroll, Def focused: 0.668

4 Attack vs. 2 Defense

Def unmodified: 2.26

Def focused: 1.77

R7 reroll, Def unmodified: 1.55

R7 reroll, Def focused: 1.12

So for an X-wing with R7, it looks like focus is the better defensive action when attacked by a ship with 2 or less attack dice, while target lock is better for 3+ attack dice. But the difference at 3 dice is very minor, and of course, it can only be used against that one attacker.

But if you're going to try Biggs with R7, don't waste your defensive target locks on 2-attack-dice ships.

Thanks. Tarn & Biggs both have mechanics that prevent the opponent from bypassing a shot r7 could modify. Similarly to that though, I'm curious if you could do a similar breakdown 1 & 3 agility ships?

Sure thing. For 1-agility ships:

2 Attack vs. 1 Defense

Def unmodified: 1.15

Def focused: 0.914

R7 reroll, Def unmodified: 0.822

R7 reroll, Def focused: 0.620

3 Attack vs. 1 Defense

Def unmodified: 1.88

Def focused: 1.63

R7 reroll, Def unmodified: 1.34

R7 reroll, Def focused: 1.11

4 Attack vs. 1 Defense

Def unmodified: 2.63

Def focused: 2.38

R7 reroll, Def unmodified: 1.89

R7 reroll, Def focused: 1.65

5 Attack vs. 1 Defense

Def unmodified: 3.38

Def focused: 3.13

R7 reroll, Def unmodified: 2.44

R7 reroll, Def focused: 2.20

And 3-agility ships:

2 Attack vs. 3 Defense

Def unmodified: 0.613

Def focused: 0.227

R7 reroll, Def unmodified: 0.414

R7 reroll, Def focused: 0.143

3 Attack vs. 3 Defense

Def unmodified: 1.22

Def focused: 0.638

R7 reroll, Def unmodified: 0.798

R7 reroll, Def focused: 0.371

4 Attack vs. 3 Defense

Def unmodified: 1.91

Def focused: 1.23

R7 reroll, Def unmodified: 1.25

R7 reroll, Def focused: 0.707

5 Attack vs. 3 Defense

Def unmodified: 2.64

Def focused: 1.91

R7 reroll, Def unmodified: 1.76

R7 reroll, Def focused: 1.13

And bonus, for comparison:

5 Attack vs. 2 Defense

Def unmodified: 3.00

Def focused: 2.51

R7 reroll, Def unmodified: 2.09

R7 reroll, Def focused: 1.62