Perhaps a separate thread to discuss the fictional origins of the Jedi and their use (or avoidance) of violence is in order.

Another thread was veering into the Tropics of Off-Topics so I will take Venthrac's sage advice and move the discussion here...

One notion:

Knights live by a code. Sjust that like samurai and Jedi, their code does not, in the end, have a fundamental problem with people ending up dead by the warriors blade.

Another:

Certainly a factor, yes.

However, with the fantastical nature of "Star Wars", the harder realities of Knights and Samurai don't allow for (in my opinion) direct analogies.

Below are my examples of what the Jedi may be more akin to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPiYBfTE1ec

Not with this clip is Arthur's realization that he used the power of Excalibur selfishly. His penance for doing so and reward for owning to his mistakes.

I did not include a Samurai example as I know little of the culture and decided to highlight my ignorance. Instead, I include an example of the sort of Eastern philosophy that I do see in the Jedi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amkDvp--hs4

What are your notions?

I treat the force as a living entity. Dark force is its opposing side. Jedi are just vehicles by which said force acts. I know the analogies are poor, but good jedi adhere to a code much like knights and samurai do, at least in the mythical settings. The force is used in defense and in the betterment of "the people". Using The Force to do harm, murder, etc.. except when in defense causes it to be replaced with dark side force which has more of a will of it's own. I know it isn't by the book, but when I'm explaining things to players that aren't as obsessed with star wars as I am, it gets my points across.

A being with a lightsaber that uses the Force and fights for truth, justice and goodness....not sure they need to be anymore than that honestly.

What are your notions?

Since I didn't follow the other thread, I'm not sure what the question is. Are you asking what the real world analogues are? Then it's all of the above, and more, and none of the above at all, all at the same time.

The biggest difference between RL analogues is the semi-quantifiable mystical energy known as the Force. In the SW universe, nobody can deny it when a practitioner starts throwing it around. In RL, if it exists at all it's practically insignificant.

Or maybe I missed the thrust of your question.

A being with a lightsaber that uses the Force and fights for truth, justice and goodness....not sure they need to be anymore than that honestly.

Interesting.

So, to you, the Jedi are not an organization or a philosophy or an institution, but simply Force-Users with a specific weapon choice and "alignment" (for want of a better term).

Luke didn't need training to be a Jedi. He had his father's lightsaber and when he started using the Force he was a "Jedi". Training with Yoda was just fine-tuning.

What are your notions?

Since I didn't follow the other thread, I'm not sure what the question is.

To keep it simple, let's go with "How would you explain a Jedi to someone who didn't already know" and we can all agree or disagree from there.

Paul Atreides with a lightsaber instead of a kindjal, some telekinesis, and a stronger sense of pacifism.

A being with a lightsaber that uses the Force and fights for truth, justice and goodness....not sure they need to be anymore than that honestly.

Interesting.

So, to you, the Jedi are not an organization or a philosophy or an institution, but simply Force-Users with a specific weapon choice and "alignment" (for want of a better term).

Luke didn't need training to be a Jedi. He had his father's lightsaber and when he started using the Force he was a "Jedi". Training with Yoda was just fine-tuning.

What are your notions?

Since I didn't follow the other thread, I'm not sure what the question is.

To keep it simple, let's go with "How would you explain a Jedi to someone who didn't already know" and we can all agree or disagree from there.

They're a fictional organization of warrior-monks created in the Star Wars universe by George Lucas that wield a mystical energy known as the Force and serve as peacekeepers in the galaxy. He drew on martial traditions both eastern and western for the warriors themselves, and the Force was a fusion of a variety of eastern spiritual philosophies.

That's what I would tell someone who doesn't know what the Jedi are.

In game terms the order is dead and gone. Luke was it. If the movie script rumors prove true, then it is possible he didn't reconstitute the order like so much of the EU defined.

Within anyone's individual game they are whatever the GM needs them to be in order to facilitate a good time. There was room left in the PT to allow for some to have survived the purge and Force users are born everyday.

To keep it simple, let's go with "How would you explain a Jedi to someone who didn't already know" and we can all agree or disagree from there.

Being a "Jedi" would mean mostly belonging to the Order in some capacity. It's a club, but a fairly loose one. Assuming "the Force" was already defined...

a. someone who can use the Force

b. someone who favours restraint over power, and other "light side" principles

c. has discipline and training recognized by the Jedi Council (or, in their absence, the Force itself)

d. does not have to necessarily agree with the Council if they feel the Force urging them otherwise

I have a few different answers as to what a Jedi is, depending on my mood.

In context of the movies, especially ANH, I feel that other posters in this thread covered it. They are warrior monks who fight for good with magic and laser swords. I believe that Lucas intended them to be everything that is good and pure. Or as I like to call them, PALADINS IN SPAAAAAAAACE!!!

However, if you actually look at what they do and how people react to them you get a much different view. Take a look at this bit of dialogue from everyone's favorite, TPM.

NUTE : (shaken) What?!? What did you say?
TC-14 : The Ambassadors are Jedi Knights, I believe.
DOFINE : I knew it! They were sent to force a settlement, eh. Blind me,
we're done for!

Nute and Dofine are so scared of Jedi and what the Jedi will do to them to "force a settlement" that they'd rather attack first. Think about it. If you knew there was a non-government orginization that operates as the law, uses magic to alter people's minds, and has authority to kill comes to visit you for "peacefull negotiations", wouldn't you be scared? I know I for one would be. I believe the Jedi had a reputation as being dangerous, which made it all the easier to outlaw them into some hokey religion.

A group that can "Jedi mind trick" my responses in negotiations is removing my free will to get what they want. Who let them decide what's best for the universe? Jedi use magic tricks and force to shape the universe into the image they desire under the guise as peacekeepers. To me, that's evil.

In summary, I prefer Jedi to be white knights against the black of the Sith and Empire, but it's fun to discuss the shades of gray the Jedi order actually is displayed as being.

Within anyone's individual game they are whatever the GM needs them to be in order to facilitate a good time.

This. I like that there's enough ambiguity in ANH that I can make Jedi Knights whatever I want to be within the bounds of plausibility.

A group that can "Jedi mind trick" my responses in negotiations is removing my free will to get what they want. Who let them decide what's best for the universe? Jedi use magic tricks and force to shape the universe into the image they desire under the guise as peacekeepers. To me, that's evil.

I think you're reading too much and too little into that scene. It's exacerbated by the storytelling shortcuts the movie had to make, and taking too many things in the movies at face value.

The Jedi were there to figure out what was going on, the blockade made little sense and was verging into illegality. Nute and Dofine were worried the Jedi would figure out that it really was an invasion plan...maybe even who they were working for. Who needs a mind trick when you can ferret out what's really going on and report back to the Chancellor? "Forcing" doesn't have to mean mental domination, it just means exposure and the possibility of political censure. Plus, mechanically a mind trick wears off, if the Jedi ran around mind-tricking everyone to behave they'd never have held the position they did, there would be too many reports of abuse.

It's hard for me to watch the movies anymore. TCW does a much better job of laying out the bigger picture with these kinds of political confrontations.

I have a few different answers as to what a Jedi is, depending on my mood.

In context of the movies, especially ANH, I feel that other posters in this thread covered it. They are warrior monks who fight for good with magic and laser swords. I believe that Lucas intended them to be everything that is good and pure. Or as I like to call them, PALADINS IN SPAAAAAAAACE!!!

However, if you actually look at what they do and how people react to them you get a much different view. Take a look at this bit of dialogue from everyone's favorite, TPM.

NUTE : (shaken) What?!? What did you say?

TC-14 : The Ambassadors are Jedi Knights, I believe.

DOFINE : I knew it! They were sent to force a settlement, eh. Blind me,

we're done for!

Nute and Dofine are so scared of Jedi and what the Jedi will do to them to "force a settlement" that they'd rather attack first. Think about it. If you knew there was a non-government orginization that operates as the law, uses magic to alter people's minds, and has authority to kill comes to visit you for "peacefull negotiations", wouldn't you be scared? I know I for one would be. I believe the Jedi had a reputation as being dangerous, which made it all the easier to outlaw them into some hokey religion.

A group that can "Jedi mind trick" my responses in negotiations is removing my free will to get what they want. Who let them decide what's best for the universe? Jedi use magic tricks and force to shape the universe into the image they desire under the guise as peacekeepers. To me, that's evil.

In summary, I prefer Jedi to be white knights against the black of the Sith and Empire, but it's fun to discuss the shades of gray the Jedi order actually is displayed as being.

The guilty are frequently frightened by those who have the will, the mandate, and the capability to hold them accountable. That doesn't make those who dispense the justice evil. Indeed even the ability to force someone to acquiesce isn't in and of itself evil, whether by magic mind trick or overwhelming superior force, it's how that power is used and dispensed that determines whether or not it is being used in an evil fashion.

A group that can "Jedi mind trick" my responses in negotiations is removing my free will to get what they want. Who let them decide what's best for the universe? Jedi use magic tricks and force to shape the universe into the image they desire under the guise as peacekeepers. To me, that's evil.

I think you're reading too much and too little into that scene. It's exacerbated by the storytelling shortcuts the movie had to make, and taking too many things in the movies at face value.

The Jedi were there to figure out what was going on, the blockade made little sense and was verging into illegality. Nute and Dofine were worried the Jedi would figure out that it really was an invasion plan...maybe even who they were working for. Who needs a mind trick when you can ferret out what's really going on and report back to the Chancellor? "Forcing" doesn't have to mean mental domination, it just means exposure and the possibility of political censure. Plus, mechanically a mind trick wears off, if the Jedi ran around mind-tricking everyone to behave they'd never have held the position they did, there would be too many reports of abuse.

It's hard for me to watch the movies anymore. TCW does a much better job of laying out the bigger picture with these kinds of political confrontations.

I completly agree about the storytelling shortcuts altering "perception" of the events. They needed to get the point across that the bad guys were bad and give them some justificaiton for their actions.

As for the Jedi's mission, this is from the scroll:

While the congress of the Republic endlessly debates this alarming chain of

events, the Supreme Chancellor has secretly dispatched two Jedi Knights,

the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy, to settle the

conflict.....

Jedi were sent to settle the conflict, not investigate it and report back. One could simply think that this would mean through peaceful negotiations. But, why were Jedi Knights sent in secret? Why not an ambassador? Isn't there a seperation between the Jedi Order and the Senate? Why is the Supreme Chancellor relying on under the table methods? Jedi are guardians of peace and justice, but they are also armed warriors. I would contend that Jedi were sent to make a point, and that point was to strike fear. Granted, they are good guys and striking fear in the hearts of the bad guys isn't bad in context of a story, but when you remove the blunt good/bad natures of the character you start seeing shades of gray in the Jedi's actions.

The TCW sounds like a great show. I passed on it early because it seemed like just a kids show, but the couple times I've watched it, it has been really good. Showing political issues in a realistic light is hard in the limited time of a movie, especially when it's a Space Opera and not a Political Thriller, so a TV show format would have the time to be able to go into more depth to show how it actually went down. I'll have to watch TCW one of these days. Perhaps get Netflix again, if it's on there.

The guilty are frequently frightened by those who have the will, the mandate, and the capability to hold them accountable. That doesn't make those who dispense the justice evil. Indeed even the ability to force someone to acquiesce isn't in and of itself evil, whether by magic mind trick or overwhelming superior force, it's how that power is used and dispensed that determines whether or not it is being used in an evil fashion.

I completly agree, which is why the morality of force users can be an interesting discussion, when held by level headed parties. It's great that the Jedi do things for good. Really, their greatest downfall is that they are written by someone who isn't a Jedi, so some of their actions and words can be easily viewed from a negative perspective. This bit of dialogue is just before the Jedi are attacked.

OBI-WAN : Yes, Master...how do you think the trade viceroy will deal with the chancellor's demands?

QUI-GON : These Federation types are cowards. The negotiations will be short.

I'll admit that the words were chosen as storytelling shorthand to get the point across. The bad guys are cowards and would do anything to not have to negotiate the chancellor's demands, which is why they try to gas the Jedi. However, if we don't just give it a pass as shorthand we can read things into what was said. I find it interesting that Qui-Gon said "cowards". It could be read into it that the Jedi reputation preceedes them and the Federation would just give in to the demands without any negoations.

And really, all of this could be taken a step further. Perhaps Jedi didn't have an overly good or bad reputation. Perhaps Sideous had already planted those thoughts into the Trade Federation people so that they'd start the war. Perhaps this is just showing how out of touch the Jedi Order had become and why the major upheaval was needed to restore ballance.

Great discussion. I love it. I think at the heart of it all we agree on our answer to the OP's question. Jedi are a force of good and how they are portrayed depends on how your own game/story goes. I just enjoy digging a little deeper and seeing the shades of gray that are either intentional or that my perception fills in for me.

However, if you actually look at what they do and how people react to them you get a much different view. Take a look at this bit of dialogue from everyone's favorite, TPM.

NUTE : (shaken) What?!? What did you say?

TC-14 : The Ambassadors are Jedi Knights, I believe.

DOFINE : I knew it! They were sent to force a settlement, eh. Blind me,

we're done for!

Nute and Dofine are so scared of Jedi and what the Jedi will do to them to "force a settlement" that they'd rather attack first. Think about it. If you knew there was a non-government orginization that operates as the law, uses magic to alter people's minds, and has authority to kill comes to visit you for "peacefull negotiations", wouldn't you be scared? I know I for one would be. I believe the Jedi had a reputation as being dangerous, which made it all the easier to outlaw them into some hokey religion.

A group that can "Jedi mind trick" my responses in negotiations is removing my free will to get what they want. Who let them decide what's best for the universe? Jedi use magic tricks and force to shape the universe into the image they desire under the guise as peacekeepers. To me, that's evil.

In summary, I prefer Jedi to be white knights against the black of the Sith and Empire, but it's fun to discuss the shades of gray the Jedi order actually is displayed as being.

Were I defending the Jedi, I would bring it around to the maxim of "restraint." Here, the Jedi are only Mind Tricking for the greater good and only as much as is necessary. If removing the effects of one corrupt sentient's free will for a matter of minutes serves a greater purpose, then is it really evil? Whom has the Jedi in question harmed in this instance?

Free will is certainly a touchy subject. But the "Jedi Mind Trick" is only using a peaceable solution to enact a desirable outcome. For the Jedi, it isn't even "removing free will;" rather, it is being very persuasive by using the Force to get an individual to see things from a different perspective. Not turning them into drones or lobotomizing them, but influencing their minds for a short time.

The Sith, on the other hand, would practice no restraint in this category.

But I can see how such things would still be a cause for concern in-universe among the plebeians

Note that Darth Sidious actually told Gunray to kill the Jedi. So the Neimoidians were under the control of a Sith Lord there, not acting on their own initiative.

I completly agree that is what happened, but is it ever stated/shown in cannon that this happened? I'm curious as to how it went down. I'd like to believe Sidious told them stories of Jedi and used the dark side to build in a hatred and fear that would result in them trying to kill Jedi, or anyone who stood in their way. It should be noted that in the movie, Jedi didn't come up in any of their conversations until after Darth Maul ran into the Jedi.

So you're being Palpy's Advocate here?

Were I defending the Jedi, I would bring it around to the maxim of "restraint." Here, the Jedi are only Mind Tricking for the greater good and only as much as is necessary. If removing the effects of one corrupt sentient's free will for a matter of minutes serves a greater purpose, then is it really evil? Whom has the Jedi in question harmed in this instance?

Free will is certainly a touchy subject. But the "Jedi Mind Trick" is only using a peaceable solution to enact a desirable outcome. For the Jedi, it isn't even "removing free will;" rather, it is being very persuasive by using the Force to get an individual to see things from a different perspective. Not turning them into drones or lobotomizing them, but influencing their minds for a short time.

The Sith, on the other hand, would practice no restraint in this category.

But I can see how such things would still be a cause for concern in-universe among the plebeians

Palpy is love and peace. He knows all. As the Emperor he guides us and protects us from evil. Try the Kool-Aid.

Thank you awayputurwpn, I now think that Mind Trick seems fitting for something Jedi do. As you say, they are using "restraint" for the grace of the greater good. There are hard moral questions out there, but those questions become easier when you limit your focus to what you can do to help the greater good. Jedi actions seem willing to sacrafice a part to ensure the safety of the whole. They are willing to bypass "free will" with Mind Trick, because they are doing it for good. I would assume that if given the same situation, the Jedi would make the same choice over Dresden. Which is to say, they would let the town be bombed, because protecting it would show they could decrypt secret codes and keeping that secret was better for the greater good.

I would even say that this is why Obi-Wan chopped off the guy's arm in the bar. (And this does play into the Jedi's willingness to violence the OP asked about.) He was doing the best action for the greater good. He couldn't Mind Trick a guy who's already pulling out his gun, there's no time for that. He also couldn't straight up kill the guy, because he know's he's just a lonely Architect with a loud-mouth friend. (We accept Robot Chicken as Canon, right?) In this case it's best to have a quick show of force to put the violence to an end as soon as possible so they can move on and escape the planet.

I haven't done any research on it, but is this also why Jedi become Generals in the Clone Wars? They realize that the Republic is screwed if they don't take one for the team and lead. So, for the sake of the greater good, they lead the armies into battle.

Note that Darth Sidious actually told Gunray to kill the Jedi. So the Neimoidians were under the control of a Sith Lord there, not acting on their own initiative.

I completly agree that is what happened, but is it ever stated/shown in cannon that this happened? I'm curious as to how it went down. I'd like to believe Sidious told them stories of Jedi and used the dark side to build in a hatred and fear that would result in them trying to kill Jedi, or anyone who stood in their way. It should be noted that in the movie, Jedi didn't come up in any of their conversations until after Darth Maul ran into the Jedi.

So you're being Palpy's Advocate here?

Were I defending the Jedi, I would bring it around to the maxim of "restraint." Here, the Jedi are only Mind Tricking for the greater good and only as much as is necessary. If removing the effects of one corrupt sentient's free will for a matter of minutes serves a greater purpose, then is it really evil? Whom has the Jedi in question harmed in this instance?

Free will is certainly a touchy subject. But the "Jedi Mind Trick" is only using a peaceable solution to enact a desirable outcome. For the Jedi, it isn't even "removing free will;" rather, it is being very persuasive by using the Force to get an individual to see things from a different perspective. Not turning them into drones or lobotomizing them, but influencing their minds for a short time.

The Sith, on the other hand, would practice no restraint in this category.

But I can see how such things would still be a cause for concern in-universe among the plebeians

Palpy is love and peace. He knows all. As the Emperor he guides us and protects us from evil. Try the Kool-Aid.

Thank you awayputurwpn, I now think that Mind Trick seems fitting for something Jedi do. As you say, they are using "restraint" for the grace of the greater good. There are hard moral questions out there, but those questions become easier when you limit your focus to what you can do to help the greater good. Jedi actions seem willing to sacrafice a part to ensure the safety of the whole. They are willing to bypass "free will" with Mind Trick, because they are doing it for good. I would assume that if given the same situation, the Jedi would make the same choice over Dresden. Which is to say, they would let the town be bombed, because protecting it would show they could decrypt secret codes and keeping that secret was better for the greater good.

I would even say that this is why Obi-Wan chopped off the guy's arm in the bar. (And this does play into the Jedi's willingness to violence the OP asked about.) He was doing the best action for the greater good. He couldn't Mind Trick a guy who's already pulling out his gun, there's no time for that. He also couldn't straight up kill the guy, because he know's he's just a lonely Architect with a loud-mouth friend. (We accept Robot Chicken as Canon, right?) In this case it's best to have a quick show of force to put the violence to an end as soon as possible so they can move on and escape the planet.

I haven't done any research on it, but is this also why Jedi become Generals in the Clone Wars? They realize that the Republic is screwed if they don't take one for the team and lead. So, for the sake of the greater good, they lead the armies into battle.

Obi-Wan might have made a call like that at Dresden. Yoda, I think, would have seen it coming and taken steps to avoid having to make the choice. Anakin would have been the brash one and would have launched a bold ambush before the attack that somehow saved the day. It would have worked out.

But yeah, my thought on why the Jedi got involved in the Clone Wars was that 1) they had begun to lose their way; 2) they thought perhaps that violence against droids was not so bad compared to violence against organic sentients; and most importantly, 3) Palpatine was a master manipulator and wanted the Jedi involved.

I would assume that if given the same situation, the Jedi would make the same choice over Dresden. Which is to say, they would let the town be bombed, because protecting it would show they could decrypt secret codes and keeping that secret was better for the greater good.

I think you may have confused Dresden with Coventry. Coventry is a town in the UK that Churchill knew would be bombed by Germany but he didn't protect the town because to do so might have tipped off the Germans that the Allies had broken their enigma cyphers and jeopardized the D-Day landings.

Dresden is a city in Germany that the Allies area bombed - essentially they razed it to the ground. This was in 1945 when the German army was largely in retreat before Soviet forces to the East and the Allies to the West. The primary motivation of the Allies in the Dresden bombing was not to defeat the Germans, because that outcome was already expected, but to try to get to Berlin before the Soviets. About 25,000 people died, mostly burnt to death as the Allies were using incendiary devices designed to start massive uncontrollable fires in urban areas. The writer Kurt Vonnegut was an American Prisoner of War being held in a detention facility in Dresden at the time and his novel Slaughterhouse Five is about the experience.

If you're interested in Dresden, there are a couple of famous accounts by people who survived. I've spoilered them as they can be pretty upsetting. However, if people here are looking to get a feel what evils a government can actually perpetrate in real life, they make compelling reading. The Allies are in the West generally considered "the Good Guys". They're fighting histories most celebrated "Bad Guys", after all. So the below accounts are an interesting cross-over with the How Evil is Your Empire thread as they go a long way to show how you don't need to make the Empire kitten-kicking-evil to make them terrifying. Just the fact that they are an active military power that uses force is sufficient to provide you with plenty of "evil". And it also shows how "Good Guys" such as the Jedi who are one of the ruling cliques of the Republic, may not be seen as such.

— Lothar Metzger, survivor

— Margaret Freyer, survivor

Jedi

http://www.starwars.com/databank/jedi-order

Sorry sorry sorry, don't ban me! XD

Well, a bit expanded version. Is a religious person, with a credo that makes him/her a person that protects defenseless and preserves peace. Sometimes a bit despotic with non-living things like droids and with non-sentitive people.

Their vision about life and Force and the Temple reclusion made them sometimes that seems that are really disconected from the reality.

Generally wise and reflexive and aware of his "differences" and potential. Thing that makes them sometimes a bit altive and arrogant. But in general therms a good person that you can trust.

This is my general impression about what is Jedi.

Obi-Wan might have made a call like that at Dresden. Yoda, I think, would have seen it coming and taken steps to avoid having to make the choice. Anakin would have been the brash one and would have launched a bold ambush before the attack that somehow saved the day. It would have worked out.

That's too true. Gotta love the power of fiction.

I would assume that if given the same situation, the Jedi would make the same choice over Dresden. Which is to say, they would let the town be bombed, because protecting it would show they could decrypt secret codes and keeping that secret was better for the greater good.

I think you may have confused Dresden with Coventry. Coventry is a town in the UK that Churchill knew would be bombed by Germany but he didn't protect the town because to do so might have tipped off the Germans that the Allies had broken their enigma cyphers and jeopardized the D-Day landings.

Thank you for the history lesson, my good man. Coventry is what I meant. That's what I get for trying to remember a history lesson from 15+ years ago without fact checking before posting. Now I'm kicking myself for starting Cat's Cradle before Slaughterhouse-Five.

I think you may have confused Dresden with Coventry. Coventry is a town in the UK that Churchill knew would be bombed by Germany but he didn't protect the town because to do so might have tipped off the Germans that the Allies had broken their enigma cyphers and jeopardized the D-Day landings.

Thank you for the history lesson, my good man. Coventry is what I meant. That's what I get for trying to remember a history lesson from 15+ years ago without fact checking before posting. Now I'm kicking myself for starting Cat's Cradle before Slaughterhouse-Five.

No problem. That area of history is one of my interests, so the details come easily to me. As regards which order to read the Vonnegut books... well, given how much random time dislocation happens in his books, it's probably the way they're meant to be read.

I think you may have confused Dresden with Coventry. Coventry is a town in the UK that Churchill knew would be bombed by Germany but he didn't protect the town because to do so might have tipped off the Germans that the Allies had broken their enigma cyphers and jeopardized the D-Day landings.

Thank you for the history lesson, my good man. Coventry is what I meant. That's what I get for trying to remember a history lesson from 15+ years ago without fact checking before posting. Now I'm kicking myself for starting Cat's Cradle before Slaughterhouse-Five.

No problem. That area of history is one of my interests, so the details come easily to me. As regards which order to read the Vonnegut books... well, given how much random time dislocation happens in his books, it's probably the way they're meant to be read.

(this coming from a guy who has been to Coventry, Nuremberg, Normandy, and other various places in England and the continent with WWII significance...and written essays on the war...but yeah, KotOR)

I think you may have confused Dresden with Coventry. Coventry is a town in the UK that Churchill knew would be bombed by Germany but he didn't protect the town because to do so might have tipped off the Germans that the Allies had broken their enigma cyphers and jeopardized the D-Day landings.

Thank you for the history lesson, my good man. Coventry is what I meant. That's what I get for trying to remember a history lesson from 15+ years ago without fact checking before posting. Now I'm kicking myself for starting Cat's Cradle before Slaughterhouse-Five.

No problem. That area of history is one of my interests, so the details come easily to me. As regards which order to read the Vonnegut books... well, given how much random time dislocation happens in his books, it's probably the way they're meant to be read.

Is it bad what I recalled first wasn't World War II, but the Kashyyyk star map scene in Knight of the Old Republic?

(this coming from a guy who has been to Coventry, Nuremberg, Normandy, and other various places in England and the continent with WWII significance...and written essays on the war...but yeah, KotOR)

Nope. Just means you have the right frame of mind for the forum on which we're discussing these things.

What IS a Jedi . . . A Jedi is a member of a dangerous sect of raving lunatics who use mystic, evil powers to control people's minds, make them do their bidding, and ultimately try to take over the galaxy. They feel that all non-Force users are their "playthings" and feel that it is not only their right but more repulsingly their DUTY to send these ones to their deaths in pointless wars and disputes. After all, as one of their most revered priests said: "they are doing their job so that we can do ours." These were good human beings like you and I, who had been manipulated by the Jedi to perpetrate a war (in which the Jedi actively controlled both sides—with the Order itself pulling the strings of the Republic and the SUPPOSEDLY outcast Count Dooku leading the Separatists. We now know from the journal of their own Master Windu that he was secretly in league with the Jedi). The Jedi, supposed pantheons of truth, justice, and the right of beings to free will, created an entire Clone ARMY to serve them, hoping to cow their subjects into submission. Then when the one Jedi Count Dooku had the decency to come forward, to fight out against their control, who was going to inform the Chancellor of what was happening, the Jedi killed him in cold blood. It is truly fortunate that their stain on the galaxy has been removed.

Brought to you by COMPNOR

...

Brought to you by COMPNOR

You forgot to add that they stole babies or used mind tricks to make their parents give them up to bolster the Jedi ranks.